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Training Conducted at RT.

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  • Scouter Chuck
    I wrote about this concern to a list member of one list, and while I did receive a reply from him, I would like to toss it out to the rest of you, for more
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 3, 2006
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      I wrote about this concern to a list member of one list, and while I
      did receive a reply from him, I would like to toss it out to the rest
      of you, for more comments.

      I'm concerned about the quality of training received by the leader who
      takes NLE or "position specific training" at RT. Or even the Troop
      Committee challenge. The question was:

      Is someone who took Troop Committee Challenge at RT trained to the
      same level as someone who took a 3 hour course on one evening, or a
      Sat. morning? Are they as well trained as one who took it as a 4.5
      hour course, no matter when?

      If the course was designed as a 4-4.5 hour course, I don't think we
      should be cutting the corners just to get it done within a shorter
      time frame, like RT.

      I'm _royally_ concerned about various trainings being compressed into
      the time of one RT. IMHO, the attendees get short changed, meaning
      the units get short changed, and all that happens is that the training
      records get filled out faster.

      Our District Committee Meeting is TU, and I would like to bring this
      subject up for discussion. To do that effectively, I'll need some
      back up data. That's where you folks come in, and the reason for the
      post.

      I really don't think these courses are actually the "supplemental
      training" that are supposed to be conducted at RT.

      YiS,

      Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
      I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
      Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
      Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
      -- Stephen R. Covey
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    • barrythebluebear@juno.com
      Hi Chuck, Agree. Done the Essentials course many times. Love it (though it s goes so quick). There is core info that all scouter s must know to be effective.
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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        Hi Chuck,

        Agree. Done the "Essentials" course many times. Love it (though it's
        goes so quick). There is core info that all scouter's must know to be
        effective. Seen some bloat it with personal stories that were
        interesting(?), but of less value. OK. Seen some reduce it (to fit
        time), where key info was glossed over so quick as to be
        imperceptable - result: stumbling leader. Not OK.

        Most "supplemental course" descriptions in scouting are for 50 minute
        sessions. That can fit in roundtable, though it's more designed for
        district meetings, committee meetings, and "University" trainings.
        Anybody, and I mean anybody, who thinks "Essentials" can be taught at
        an 1.5 hour roundtable is a self-admitted delusional personality that
        needs serious counseling, possible a twelve-step program or scouting
        rehab. They are doing harm by neglect. They must stop it.

        Or, at least, that's my two cents. (You should see me get worked up
        about something...)

        Yours in Scouting,
        Barry
      • jonas4321
        ... Though this answer does not directly address your concern about compressing schedules to fit another activity (I share that concern), the Troop Committee
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
          >
          > Is someone who took Troop Committee Challenge at RT trained to the
          > same level as someone who took a 3 hour course on one evening, or a
          > Sat. morning? Are they as well trained as one who took it as a 4.5
          > hour course, no matter when?
          >
          > If the course was designed as a 4-4.5 hour course, I don't think we
          > should be cutting the corners just to get it done within a shorter
          > time frame, like RT.
          >

          Though this answer does not directly address your concern about
          compressing schedules to fit another activity (I share that concern),
          the Troop Committee Challenge course is designed to run 3 hours. The
          syllabus uses 6:30pm to 9:30pm as its timeframe of reference.

          I have been doing TCC for a few years and have done many (many)
          courses. I usually run this course at 3.5 hours, which includes a
          break, often for a meal like dinner, if the group I am doing the
          training for is so inclined. Any extra time (beyond the 3 hours) is
          often used for extending the Buzz Group discussion time, which always
          seems to spark the most discussion. I think that 3 hours without a
          break is a reasonable timeframe to hold this course in.

          4.5 hours for this syllabus would be making it a bit long, imo.

          Jonas

          ps- As an aside, TCC is a great example of a training I don't think
          could be served up online for an individual 'attendee'. The group
          interaction is integral to the materials.
        • corinnajones@hotmail.com
          Chuck, Coming from the Cub Scout side, I am becoming more active in Boy Scouts now, and will be attending Troop Committee Challenge tonight, run by our
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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            Chuck,
            Coming from the Cub Scout side, I am becoming more active in Boy Scouts now, and will be attending Troop Committee Challenge tonight, run by our district training staff. At this month's RT, I am looking forward to participating in the Merit Badge Counselor orientation.
            There are regularly opportunities for training at our district camporees. For the winter camporee Troop Committee Challenge is scheduled as well as YPT. In the spring there will we another session on a Saturday.
            While YPT, Health & Safety, MB counselor orientation, etc., fit well into the framework of roundtable, and might just improve attendance, the fundamental trainings would definitely be short-changed. I have not seen them done at RT, and hope this won't change.

            YiS,
            Corinna


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Scouter Chuck
            To: bsrtpost ; rtpost ; sctr-t
            Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:12 AM
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Training Conducted at RT.


            I wrote about this concern to a list member of one list, and while I
            did receive a reply from him, I would like to toss it out to the rest
            of you, for more comments.

            I'm concerned about the quality of training received by the leader who
            takes NLE or "position specific training" at RT. Or even the Troop
            Committee challenge. The question was:

            Is someone who took Troop Committee Challenge at RT trained to the
            same level as someone who took a 3 hour course on one evening, or a
            Sat. morning? Are they as well trained as one who took it as a 4.5
            hour course, no matter when?

            If the course was designed as a 4-4.5 hour course, I don't think we
            should be cutting the corners just to get it done within a shorter
            time frame, like RT.

            I'm _royally_ concerned about various trainings being compressed into
            the time of one RT. IMHO, the attendees get short changed, meaning
            the units get short changed, and all that happens is that the training
            records get filled out faster.

            Our District Committee Meeting is TU, and I would like to bring this
            subject up for discussion. To do that effectively, I'll need some
            back up data. That's where you folks come in, and the reason for the
            post.

            I really don't think these courses are actually the "supplemental
            training" that are supposed to be conducted at RT.

            YiS,

            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
            Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
            -- Stephen R. Covey
            ----------------------------------------------------------




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kevin Pate
            ... Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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              barrythebluebear@... wrote:


              > Anybody, and I mean anybody, who thinks "Essentials"
              > can be taught at an 1.5 hour roundtable is a self-
              > admitted delusional personality that needs serious
              > counseling, possible a twelve-step program or
              > scouting rehab. They are doing harm by neglect.
              > They must stop it.

              Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
              tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
              necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)



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            • John Halter
              I was wondering the same thing. It s funny that this topic came up here at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders that we begin offering
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                I was wondering the same thing. It's funny that this topic came up here
                at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders that we
                begin offering training at Round Table. I told them we would look into
                it and I can see where some things may be able to be covered, but first,
                we have to come up with a training team. I don't have a problem
                offering training, but I'm not going to sacrifice the RT program to do
                it and I'm not going to use the RT staff to do the training. Not
                everyone needs training, so for those that are not interested in going
                through it again, there needs to be the option of the regularly
                scheduled RT session. I could see offering NLE at RT, then offering the
                remaining training sessions either on the following weekend or broken up
                across a few weeknights.

                Thank you,

                John Halter
                District Commissioner
                Wekiwa District
                Central FL Council, B.S.A.
                www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
                "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
                ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"



                Kevin Pate wrote:
                >
                >
                > Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
                > tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
                > necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
                >
                > .,___


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gerry Moon
                We tried it a couple years ago - offering NLE at Roundtable - and found it DO-ABLE but not ACCEPTABLE - in terms of not up to our training team s standards. We
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                  We tried it a couple years ago - offering NLE at Roundtable - and
                  found it DO-ABLE but not ACCEPTABLE - in terms of not up to our
                  training team's standards. We just put more than 90 minutes of
                  videos and powerpoints into our NLE sessions. One thing we encourage
                  is DIALOG - when we get the students to ask questions and talk, a
                  whole lot more comes out and everyone sitting in benefits from that
                  discussion. We don't stray far from the syllabus, mind you, but we
                  do take the info a little deeper than the ink on the page.

                  BTW, John and I are in the same council, different districts. I
                  agree 100% with his reluctance to use RT staff to train - while in
                  my district, a good portion of the RT straff ALSO trains, we don't
                  mix the two - RT is a COMMISSIONER function and training falls under
                  PROGRAM. When I staff Roundtable, I do so as a Commissioner, not as
                  a trainer. I do promote Roundtable at training and I promote
                  training at Roundtable.

                  Roundtable is not the place to do training (in the purest of
                  definition). Yes, I know that what we do at RT sure looks like
                  training on the surface, especially right after school night, but
                  the function there is to provide Unit Service in a group setting.
                  There is no monthly Roundtable syllabus to teach from with learning
                  objectives to achieve. Dragging training to RT in my view is not a
                  very good idea at all. Likewise, offering training CONCURRENTLY with
                  Roundtable makes them have to choose between the two - again, not
                  such a great thing.

                  Gerry Moon
                  Orlando, FL

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, John Halter <john@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was wondering the same thing. It's funny that this topic came
                  up here
                  > at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders
                  that we
                  > begin offering training at Round Table. I told them we would look
                  into
                  > it and I can see where some things may be able to be covered, but
                  first,
                  > we have to come up with a training team. I don't have a problem
                  > offering training, but I'm not going to sacrifice the RT program
                  to do
                  > it and I'm not going to use the RT staff to do the training. Not
                  > everyone needs training, so for those that are not interested in
                  going
                  > through it again, there needs to be the option of the regularly
                  > scheduled RT session. I could see offering NLE at RT, then
                  offering the
                  > remaining training sessions either on the following weekend or
                  broken up
                  > across a few weeknights.
                  >
                  > Thank you,
                  >
                  > John Halter
                  > District Commissioner
                  > Wekiwa District
                  > Central FL Council, B.S.A.
                  > www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
                  > "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
                  > ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                  > Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Kevin Pate wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
                  > > tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
                  > > necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
                  > >
                  > > .,___
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Teresa Hall
                  Well, I ll speak to the other side of the coin since I do offer one Cub Scout Leader Essential session at seven RTs each year. Just because I am holding a
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                    Well, I'll speak to the other side of the coin since I do offer one Cub
                    Scout Leader Essential session at seven RTs each year. Just because I am
                    holding a training session during RT does not mean that I expect to end the
                    same time as RT. We start RT at 7:00, and the trainees stay for the opening
                    ceremony. They are then adjourned into another room where the training
                    lasts until 9:30 or 10:00pm. This is how it is advertised, so no one is
                    surprised or inconvenienced. We generally train 7-10 people per month,
                    compared to the 50 or 60 we get during our Saturday events. One month,
                    instead of a Cub LST, we teach NLE as a RT breakout. This is marketed
                    to folks who found RT training convenient at other times during the year,
                    but is opened to anyone. We also make sure they know about NLE at the
                    beginning of SMLST or other times it's offered during the year.

                    So, while I agree that anyone who is condensing a Cub SLT to 1.5 hours is
                    doing a grave disservice, please don't lump ALL folks offering CSLST during
                    RT in that pile. It just ain't so! <smile>

                    John Halter and Gerry Moon's comments about distracting from RT is relevent,
                    too. In OUR instance (but not necessarily yours) we started this during a
                    period of building Cub RTs, and with the full buy-in of the District
                    Commissioner and the Cub RT Commissioner. Our Cub training had a very good
                    reputation, but RT was more of an unknown to the leaders. Usually the
                    people who come for training have never been to a RT. They get to see it,
                    come for the early snack supper if they like, socialize a bit, get the RT
                    handouts, and KNOW that there's fun they are missing! (Sometimes LST
                    is even interrupted by a barrage of RT folks with marshmallow blowers or a
                    visiting alligator!) We refer to it during the training as one of the best
                    places to get continuing support for their position -- and now that they
                    have actually seen it, they are not reluctant to come back. We've
                    experienced RT growth from this. Your mileage may vary.

                    YiS,
                    Teresa Hall
                    Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
                    Past Vulcan Cub RT Commissioner
                    Greater AL Council


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dave Loomis
                    I ve offered Commissioner Basic Training during the breakout time at our Roundtables, but I ran the training over several meetings so that we could cover all
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      I've offered Commissioner Basic Training during the breakout time
                      at our Roundtables, but I ran the training over several meetings so that
                      we could cover all of the information.

                      Dave

                      Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                      245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                      Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                    • Scouter Chuck
                      I d like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I ll have to cook these down a bit, and then will address some specific points out of these replies.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        I'd like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I'll have to
                        "cook these down" a bit, and then will address some specific points
                        out of these replies.

                        This subject came up tonight at the District Committee Meeting, and I
                        was told by our DE that any training is better than no training. I
                        replied with the example of the commercial that is currently running
                        for one cereal brand, where the teenage boy is shown in the back room
                        eating a bowl of the cereal.

                        A teenage girl comes back to tell him the boss wants him to get to
                        work. The commercial shows her telling him the whole thing, then
                        shows the same thing, with major portions of it blotted out by the
                        sound of his chewing. She can't stand him, but her hears that she
                        thinks he's "the cat's meow".

                        I'm more than a bit worried that this is what will happen in any RT
                        held training that involves truncating a much longer course.

                        YiS,

                        Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                        I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                        Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                        Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                        -- Stephen R. Covey
                        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                      • John Halter
                        I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT staffers/Commissioners. I agree that training is important, but if training is needed that
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
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                          I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                          staffers/Commissioners. I agree that training is important, but if
                          training is needed that badly, your training chair should be holding
                          extra sessions to get the leaders trained. If the leaders are not able
                          to make it to the normal Saturday training sessions, set up a few non-RT
                          night training sessions. Training is still a function of the District
                          Committee. What did your Program chair have to say? What do your RT
                          Commissioners and DC think about your DE's statement? BTW, nice come
                          back with commercial reference.

                          Thank you,

                          John Halter
                          District Commissioner
                          Wekiwa District
                          Central FL Council, B.S.A.
                          www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
                          "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
                          ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                          Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"



                          Scouter Chuck wrote:
                          >
                          > I'd like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I'll have to
                          > "cook these down" a bit, and then will address some specific points
                          > out of these replies.
                          >
                          > This subject came up tonight at the District Committee Meeting, and I
                          > was told by our DE that any training is better than no training. I
                          > replied with the example of the commercial that is currently running
                          > for one cereal brand, where the teenage boy is shown in the back room
                          > eating a bowl of the cereal.
                          >
                          > A teenage girl comes back to tell him the boss wants him to get to
                          > work. The commercial shows her telling him the whole thing, then
                          > shows the same thing, with major portions of it blotted out by the
                          > sound of his chewing. She can't stand him, but her hears that she
                          > thinks he's "the cat's meow".
                          >
                          > I'm more than a bit worried that this is what will happen in any RT
                          > held training that involves truncating a much longer course.
                          >
                          > YiS,
                          >
                          > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                          > <mailto:antelope95%40cox.net>
                          > I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                          > Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                          > Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                          > -- Stephen R. Covey
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dave Loomis
                          Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs. Commissioners should staff training courses. My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a chance to
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                            Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs. Commissioners
                            should staff training courses.

                            My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a chance to
                            meet the trainees in a non-confrontational situation where they are
                            passing out good info. It shows the Commissioners off as the folks who
                            know the material, experts to whom you can go for good information. And
                            it keeps the Commissioners up to date on Scouting as she really is, not
                            as she was a few years ago when they got trained.

                            Dave

                            John Halter wrote:
                            > I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                            > staffers/Commissioners.
                            >
                            > Thank you,
                            >
                            > John Halter
                            > District Commissioner
                            >
                            >

                            Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                            245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                          • Gerry Moon
                            Okay, my two cents. I believe that training should NOT be relegated to Commissioners - and in the same breath, I also believe that Commissioners are probably
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                              Okay, my two cents. I believe that training should NOT be relegated
                              to Commissioners - and in the same breath, I also believe that
                              Commissioners are probably more qualified to train that any of us. I
                              have Commissioners on my training team that, frankly, I couldn't
                              live without. I'm one myself, holding both UC and RT Staff
                              positions, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm very much a Cub
                              Scout. So - I agree with Dave in that Commissioners are great
                              candidates for trainers, and I agree with John that it's not their
                              responsibility to provide training.

                              Training requires more than just experience and knowledge of the
                              subject - even more so when we are thinking Cub training. You have
                              to think Cub Scouts, act Cub Scouts, sell Cub Scouts to apprehensive
                              and reluctant adults at first. Not so much once you move into Boy
                              Scout training...but Cub trainers need to not only deliver the info
                              but do it in a fun, non-intimidating way to hook these new parents
                              and get them to step into the water.

                              Gerry Moon
                              Orlando, FL

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis
                              <dloomis.nh.ultranet@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs.
                              Commissioners
                              > should staff training courses.
                              >
                              > My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a
                              chance to
                              > meet the trainees in a non-confrontational situation where they
                              are
                              > passing out good info. It shows the Commissioners off as the
                              folks who
                              > know the material, experts to whom you can go for good
                              information. And
                              > it keeps the Commissioners up to date on Scouting as she really
                              is, not
                              > as she was a few years ago when they got trained.
                              >
                              > Dave
                              >
                              > John Halter wrote:
                              > > I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                              > > staffers/Commissioners.
                              > >
                              > > Thank you,
                              > >
                              > > John Halter
                              > > District Commissioner
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                              > 245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                              > Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                              >
                            • Don Wilson
                              Ditto, Gerry. At a recent Commissioner s meeting the District Commissioner told the Unit Commissioner to make lists for their units of leaders trained and not
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                                Ditto, Gerry.

                                At a recent Commissioner's meeting the District Commissioner told the
                                Unit Commissioner to make lists for their units of leaders trained
                                and not trained, and then to insure that the entrained leaders get to
                                the next training, and even suggested that the Unit Commissioner do
                                the training if necessary. The District Director (one step above
                                Senior District Executive) sat on his backside and never said a word.
                                As the meeting ended I took the DD to task advising him that with a
                                Commissioner staff keeping up with training, he would not need a
                                Training Chair.

                                Unit Commissioners have specified duties, one of which is to
                                encourage leaders be trained, and meets with the Unit Committee
                                during which the subject of training should be discussed.

                                While the District Training Chair, I made person-to-person contact
                                with every direct contact leader in the District, all units. I
                                recorded the training that each had received and shared that
                                information with the Council Registrar. Information was entered into
                                the Council records. Regrettably, when the data was uploaded to
                                ScoutNet 2,000, ALL training information was lost. I passed the
                                notebook to my replacement, and it was never utilized, much less kept
                                up-to-date. With any luck (OK, some sort of miracle) the new
                                District Training Chair will be able to completely update leader
                                training records.

                                Don Wilson
                                OHC 427+
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