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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Online Training

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  • Joseph Jansen
    It may take time but asking for better than dial up service may produce results. I finally am told that we will have DSL in April 2007 after many years of
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 30, 2006
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      It may take time but asking for better than dial up service may produce
      results. I
      finally am told that we will have DSL in April 2007 after many years of
      doing without.

      I briefly tried satellite but the connection did not really work out at my
      location and
      was expensive.

      I have seen true broad band and it would make online training work very
      well.

      Self training has to be part of the training picture. In many cases an
      individual just
      will not be able to make a group training, and self training has to be an
      option.

      Joe Jansen
      JAJansenJr@...


      >From: Judy Yeager <kcjscout@...>
      >Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      >To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Online Training
      >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 14:07:56 -0600
      >
      >Scouter Chuck notes, "I don't know if this has been brought up since this
      >post, but I _know_ there are still folks out there on "dial-up" Internet
      >access. That is slow, takes phone time, and depending on where the ISP is
      >and when
      >phone plan one is on can add to the expense of the phone."
      >
      >It would seem to me that the folks who might benefit most from on-line
      >training are those who live in areas with the lowest population density and
      >find today's training sessions few and very far away. Unfortunately, these
      >are the same folks who are likely to have dial up internet access, which,
      >many times incurs long distance charges, neither of which would seem to
      >make on-line very appealing.
      >
      >Judy Yeager
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

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    • Don Wilson
      I am a bit late in getting into this conversation also. I place training on-line in the same category with recharter on-line. Both scare the stuffing out of
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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        I am a bit late in getting into this conversation also.

        I place training on-line in the same category with recharter on-line.
        Both scare the stuffing out of me. The fox guarding the hen house
        in both cases.

        Imagine a person with no Scouting background absorbing enough
        training to lead a Den, Pack, Patrol, Troop, Crew or Post to success,
        achieving the goals of Scouting using the Methods necessary.

        And...if a leader is not a able to successfully recharter using the
        antiquated method of pen and ink (manual), why should I have
        confidence that the information entered into ScoutNet 2000 will be
        correct? On top of that, now I hear that units will be able to
        enter advancement direct into ScoutNet. It is bad enough that
        District Advancement Committees have problems maintaining merit badge
        and rank standards, now we will let unit leaders have input control.
        I guess it will not be long before we see the first 12 year old
        Eagle.

        How about carrying this on-line stuff forward. Let's have unit
        meetings via computer. Why have parents worry about getting their
        children to meetings when the computer can link everyone? Then
        virtual visits to fire stations or campout events would insure that
        wet or cold weather does not cause cancellation, and there will never
        be a need for transportation. Think of the how much fun you could
        have telling ghost stories in a dark room around a virtual camp fire.
        The only drawbacks would be tying up the computer for the whole
        weekend, and no way to play Capture the Flag. Will we reach the
        point that an Eagle Board of Review will be accomplished on-line?

        Compared to many, I am a new comer to Scouting: Assistant
        Scoutmaster 30 days, Scoutmaster 9 years, Unit Commissioner 15 years,
        Training Team 18 years, District Commissioner 5 years, COR/Committee
        Chairman 3 years, and three Scouting Keys, Doctorate of Commissioner
        Science, Distinguished Unit Commissioner, Distinguished District
        Commissioner, District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Cross and Flame
        along with Wood Badge SR191 ( I used to be a Fox, one of the Feisty,
        Fabulous Four Foxes).

        During that time the Scouting program has been watered down to insure
        that membership numbers continued to grow. Entire programs have been
        developed to keep youth in Scouting, rather than lose them to perfume
        and gasoline fumes. A program developed to bring boys into the
        program right out of kindergarten rather than having completed the
        first grade, and I must admit that I am not able to call a soccer
        team a Scout unit.

        And last, but certainly not least, the politics of Scouting. Worst
        than a church. Professional Scouters looking for the next
        advancement and totally failing to see that without the volunteers,
        there is no Scouting.

        I hope that I am the only Scouter wondering if the effort is still
        worth the results.

        Don Wilson
      • Wally Hymel
        Bravo!!! ... From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don Wilson Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:25 PM To:
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2006
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          Bravo!!!



          -----Original Message-----
          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Don Wilson
          Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:25 PM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Online Training



          I am a bit late in getting into this conversation also.

          I place training on-line in the same category with recharter on-line.
          Both scare the stuffing out of me. The fox guarding the hen house
          in both cases.

          Imagine a person with no Scouting background absorbing enough
          training to lead a Den, Pack, Patrol, Troop, Crew or Post to success,
          achieving the goals of Scouting using the Methods necessary.

          And...if a leader is not a able to successfully recharter using the
          antiquated method of pen and ink (manual), why should I have
          confidence that the information entered into ScoutNet 2000 will be
          correct? On top of that, now I hear that units will be able to
          enter advancement direct into ScoutNet. It is bad enough that
          District Advancement Committees have problems maintaining merit badge
          and rank standards, now we will let unit leaders have input control.
          I guess it will not be long before we see the first 12 year old
          Eagle.

          How about carrying this on-line stuff forward. Let's have unit
          meetings via computer. Why have parents worry about getting their
          children to meetings when the computer can link everyone? Then
          virtual visits to fire stations or campout events would insure that
          wet or cold weather does not cause cancellation, and there will never
          be a need for transportation. Think of the how much fun you could
          have telling ghost stories in a dark room around a virtual camp fire.
          The only drawbacks would be tying up the computer for the whole
          weekend, and no way to play Capture the Flag. Will we reach the
          point that an Eagle Board of Review will be accomplished on-line?

          Compared to many, I am a new comer to Scouting: Assistant
          Scoutmaster 30 days, Scoutmaster 9 years, Unit Commissioner 15 years,
          Training Team 18 years, District Commissioner 5 years, COR/Committee
          Chairman 3 years, and three Scouting Keys, Doctorate of Commissioner
          Science, Distinguished Unit Commissioner, Distinguished District
          Commissioner, District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Cross and Flame
          along with Wood Badge SR191 ( I used to be a Fox, one of the Feisty,
          Fabulous Four Foxes).

          During that time the Scouting program has been watered down to insure
          that membership numbers continued to grow. Entire programs have been
          developed to keep youth in Scouting, rather than lose them to perfume
          and gasoline fumes. A program developed to bring boys into the
          program right out of kindergarten rather than having completed the
          first grade, and I must admit that I am not able to call a soccer
          team a Scout unit.

          And last, but certainly not least, the politics of Scouting. Worst
          than a church. Professional Scouters looking for the next
          advancement and totally failing to see that without the volunteers,
          there is no Scouting.

          I hope that I am the only Scouter wondering if the effort is still
          worth the results.

          Don Wilson





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kevin Pate
          ... While I am a proponent of attending good training, truth be told, a motivated person armed with only an inquisitive mind, a program handbook and a leader
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2006
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            > Imagine a person with no Scouting background
            > absorbing enough training to lead a Den, Pack,
            > Patrol, Troop, Crew or Post to success,
            > achieving the goals of Scouting using the Methods
            > necessary.

            While I am a proponent of attending good training,
            truth be told, a motivated person armed with only an
            inquisitive mind, a program handbook and a leader
            handbook has a more than reasonable foundation to
            direct a safe and exciting program. Training however
            does make it easier by highlighting key concepts,
            hopefully early on in theprocess and, as imporantly,
            by introducing the new leader to the wide array of
            written, online and the tremendous level of human
            resources available in support of the program.

            > And...if a leader is not a able to successfully
            > recharter using the antiquated method of pen and
            > ink (manual), why should I have confidence that
            > the information entered into ScoutNet 2000 will be
            > correct?

            I guess some areas may have a different online
            recharter setup,but that's not an issue locally to my
            knowledge. Locally, a unit person logs in, and
            Scoutnet generates them a separate working
            mini-database. they don't enter into scoutnet per se,
            but into their own cubbyholed info set. Once done,
            this gets turned over to the UC, who reviews, helps
            catch any oddities and after corrections, if any,
            sends that on to council. The council registrar does
            another review and then hits the big red button, and
            only then is the unit generated information added into
            scoutnet.

            > On top of that, now I hear that units will
            > be able to enter advancement direct into ScoutNet.

            This is in play today, but as I've not been working
            within a unit since last March, I don't know if units
            direct enter information into Scoutnet, or if it
            operates like recharter - units work with a separate
            subset and nothing goes into Scoutnet until someone at
            council hits the big red button.

            > I guess it will not be long before we see the first
            > 12 year old Eagle.

            Maybe I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression
            that there were already Eagle Scouts who are younger
            than age 13.

            > Let's have unit meetings via computer.

            I would guesstimate that more than one hobby related
            Venturing crews has already done so. I know when I
            was an advisor to a general interest crew, due to
            scheduling, it wasn't uncommon for officers to do a
            fair bit of communicating online via a group like this
            restricted to the officers (and there was another
            group like this for the entire crew.) never held an
            actual meeting online, but there were times the youth
            got an awful lot of prep work done online.

            I have in far fewer years than many, proably most
            here.
            I am notr a fan of onlien basic training, though i do
            remain fairly convinced that a well put together DVD
            of the indoor materials, using excellent volunteers as
            the trainers would be useful. Much like how the YPT
            video requires a facilitator but the meat was recorded
            by a group of folks who don't have to reappear in
            eprson, having the DVD model would permit sound
            training info to be more readily presented. It's all
            but impossible for a training opportunity to be
            conducted by 2 people. But if you have 1-2 live folks
            facilitated another 6-12 quality trainers who have
            been captured in dvd, it could work and without ahving
            folks individually seated at computer screens
            elsewhere without human contact.

            Then again, maybe that's just me.

            Kevin in Norman, America



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          • Mark Landry
            Don, while I share your concern about on-line training, some of the basic information imparted in those classes can be readily done in an on-line setting. And
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2006
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              Don, while I share your concern about on-line training, some of the basic
              information imparted in those classes can be readily done in an on-line
              setting. And we have to admit to ourselves that many of our new parents
              will never set foot in a district or council training course, mostly because
              they do not know what Scouting is.



              If they can come to understand just a little, by way of an on-line Fast
              Start. Or they can know we are dedicated to keeping our kids safe, by
              running through YPT. In the other classes, from New Leader Essentials on up
              to Wood Badge, most of the learning comes from the interaction with other
              Scouters. But we need Cub Scout parents to become Cub Scout Den Leaders,
              and then Cub Masters' Assistant Scoutmasters, Scoutmasters, Crew Advisors,
              etc. We all started somewhere, and these on-line trainings are there as ONE
              WAY to hook new dads and moms.



              You could not do much of the other training on-line, and I do not think we
              are going in that direction, unless technology changes a lot. BSA has
              always been way behind the curve in technology, I, for one, welcome the
              attempt to reach out to those of our number who are comfortable with
              computers. They will not, should not, and can not, however, take away from
              what one learns in face to face, hands on, trainings, both from the
              instructors, and from the other participants.



              As for online advancement and rechartering, I have to disagree with you
              quite strongly. For some of us, the online access to records is one of the
              only ways we have of ferreting out mistakes that inevitably happen when
              paper advancement reports or registration forms are input into a computer
              system. I tend to be VERY anal about accuracy of advancement records, and
              when I was able to get into that database, and fix those problems, I could
              not have been happier. And, of course, I went back into my advancement
              reports, and made sure my council's records were in error, and not mine.
              And I found out how the errors were made (skipping down from one boy to the
              next without entering all of the advancements on the report, or not changing
              the name of the scout, and giving one scout credit for another scout's
              badges, etc.)



              This system is no riper for abuse than is a system which allows a unit
              leader to submit a paper advancement report without having the scouts pass
              merit badges with a registered and certified merit badge counselor. While I
              love the staff we have in our council, they are generally overworked and
              underpaid, and it sometimes shows in the recordkeeping. I, for one, would
              trust a dedicated Scouter over a newly hired council level clerical person,
              who is plopped down at a terminal and told to enter all of these new Cub
              Scout registrations before the end of the day. But, at the same time, I
              would prefer a truly dedicated council registrar over a new parent who
              figures close enough is fine.



              But I will tell you that I would give just about anything to be able to
              access council training records on-line. Oh, to be able to input training
              reports electronically!!! The training records in our council are not where
              they need to be, not because our trainers do not submit reports, but
              because, for some unknown reason, many, if not most, of our registered
              leaders have two, three, or even more, different entries in Scoutnet, along
              with a different BSA number. And when training information is input, it
              does not always get attributed to the "identity" that shows as registered
              and linked to a particular unit.



              One of the ongoing projects in our council is to go through all of our adult
              leader records, and merge duplicate and triplicate records. But most of us
              simply don't have the time, and our paid staff has to keep up with day to
              day activities. We are working on fixing it, but we are still under the
              thumb of Hurricane Katrina, both in youth membership and adult leadership.



              My two cents worth. And, you, and all of us here, feel it is worth it.
              That is why we pay to do Scouting. <g> And the questions you raise are
              very valid concerns. But the last time I tried to fire up a campfire on my
              laptop, I had to get a new laptop. <g>



              Mark C. Landry

              Eagle Scout Class of 1973

              Council Training Chair

              Southeast Louisiana Council

              Advancement Chair

              Troop 230

              Metairie, LA.

              An Ornery Owl of SR-491, and a staffer of SR-753.

              Elections Advisor and Vigil Honor Member

              Chilantakoba Lodge, Order of the Arrow

              Chapel Committee Chair

              Catholic Committee on Scouting of the

              Archdiocese of New Orleans



              _____

              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Don Wilson
              Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:25 PM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Online Training



              I am a bit late in getting into this conversation also.

              I place training on-line in the same category with recharter on-line.
              Both scare the stuffing out of me. The fox guarding the hen house
              in both cases.

              Imagine a person with no Scouting background absorbing enough
              training to lead a Den, Pack, Patrol, Troop, Crew or Post to success,
              achieving the goals of Scouting using the Methods necessary.

              And...if a leader is not a able to successfully recharter using the
              antiquated method of pen and ink (manual), why should I have
              confidence that the information entered into ScoutNet 2000 will be
              correct? On top of that, now I hear that units will be able to
              enter advancement direct into ScoutNet. It is bad enough that
              District Advancement Committees have problems maintaining merit badge
              and rank standards, now we will let unit leaders have input control.
              I guess it will not be long before we see the first 12 year old
              Eagle.

              How about carrying this on-line stuff forward. Let's have unit
              meetings via computer. Why have parents worry about getting their
              children to meetings when the computer can link everyone? Then
              virtual visits to fire stations or campout events would insure that
              wet or cold weather does not cause cancellation, and there will never
              be a need for transportation. Think of the how much fun you could
              have telling ghost stories in a dark room around a virtual camp fire.
              The only drawbacks would be tying up the computer for the whole
              weekend, and no way to play Capture the Flag. Will we reach the
              point that an Eagle Board of Review will be accomplished on-line?

              Compared to many, I am a new comer to Scouting: Assistant
              Scoutmaster 30 days, Scoutmaster 9 years, Unit Commissioner 15 years,
              Training Team 18 years, District Commissioner 5 years, COR/Committee
              Chairman 3 years, and three Scouting Keys, Doctorate of Commissioner
              Science, Distinguished Unit Commissioner, Distinguished District
              Commissioner, District Award of Merit, Silver Beaver, Cross and Flame
              along with Wood Badge SR191 ( I used to be a Fox, one of the Feisty,
              Fabulous Four Foxes).

              During that time the Scouting program has been watered down to insure
              that membership numbers continued to grow. Entire programs have been
              developed to keep youth in Scouting, rather than lose them to perfume
              and gasoline fumes. A program developed to bring boys into the
              program right out of kindergarten rather than having completed the
              first grade, and I must admit that I am not able to call a soccer
              team a Scout unit.

              And last, but certainly not least, the politics of Scouting. Worst
              than a church. Professional Scouters looking for the next
              advancement and totally failing to see that without the volunteers,
              there is no Scouting.

              I hope that I am the only Scouter wondering if the effort is still
              worth the results.

              Don Wilson





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert O'Donnell
              I just got back from a weekend camping trip at a local scout reservation and sat down to go through e-mail. I am reeking of woodsmoke and am tired from a long
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 3, 2006
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                I just got back from a weekend camping trip at a local scout reservation and sat down to go through e-mail. I am reeking of woodsmoke and am tired from a long hike. I feel great! The kids who went were Webelos through Tenderfoot...they were led by a Scout who didn't have a leadership role in his own troop and serves as a guide for my "non-traditional" unit of younger first time Scouts. The youth in my unit would never have seen Scouting if it weren't for people who are interested in extending our Values based program to inner city at-risk kids...ours is a Scoutreach effort.

                I think BSA, like most succesful organizations, needs to be very dynamic. I approve of the BSA designed format and work hard to deliver the Traditional Values to kids who need it AND WANT IT! Without innovation and adaptation Scouting will go the way of the Do-Do. I intend on assisting in getting a Venturing Unit going with the parent of one of my daughters friends. We approached my son's troop and asked if they would allow us to build their registered Venturing Crew into something more than paperwork in a drawer. The Scoutmaster, his wife (Committee Chair), and an old line Scout all said NO!. Their reason for registering a Venture Crew, and not operating it, is so they can take kids over 18 to Philmont. These old-line Scouters have not done leader training in decades (if ever) and have watered down their program because they are lazy. It isn't because they want to compete with perfume and gasoline fumes...it is because they want to continue to do it "the old way"..and
                each year they got further and further from "the old way" because they discouraged new participants and new ideas. They were down to three camping trips a year when the new parents came along three years ago. Fortunately these new parents were trained leaders and got the calendar started, got the resources of council activities into the troop, got the patrol method restarted, got the camping trips organized, and did the driving, etc.

                I am concerned that Scouting is getting watered down...but believe that is because of lack of camping, failure to use the patrol method, and lack of focus on traditional scout skills. I believe that it is because people don't do it the way BSA teaches...because they forgot the "old way". I believe it is because the guy who got his Eagle in 1960 and hasn't been on a weekend camping trip in years, leaving it to the parents, is failing the kids he serves. Memory and enthusiasm need to be refreshed. Training does that. However most training is dull...the most important element of training is "doing". Training where you get a lecture, while sitting in a plastic chair for 8 hours, is DULL and SLOW. The dull slow stuff can be done online...the DOING stuff can be done in person with other adults who have done the DULL stuff by computer...that would work much better for me.

                I recently completed Wood Badge for the 21th Century and came back RECHARGED! I did Wood Badge in the 1990's and came back RECHARGED and then went back to a Unit that wanted to do it "their way"...not the Scout Way. I very much appreciated the NEW Wood Badge Course and am thrilled to have had a great ScoutMaster/Course Director at my most recent Wood Badge Training...he is a "role model" for me...he kept it fun, effective, and moving at a great pace. He was well organized, didn't drop/waterdown elements of the curiculum, and inspired me to be the leader that kids deserve. This course was run by Westchester/Putnam Council.

                Because of that course and the Course Directors example I am growing my scoutreach program and I am helping to get the new Venturing Crew established. We already have 15 kids who want to join Venturing and have filled out applications. The Troop that said no to our Crew has only 15 Boy Scouts in total...several in boarding school..They carry 30 Boy Scouts on the roster, the balance have dropped out but are still carried on the roll for "headcount"; that troop only has 9 or 10 Boy Scouts at any meeting. There used to be forty active scouts in that troop. The Asst Scoutmaster complains about older Cubs and Webelos on camping trips...there would be no camping trips without the cubs and webelos parents....the ASM who runs the troop doesn't even have a Drivers License...he has been absent from most of the camping trips and yet he still complains. The SM hasn't been on a troop camping trip in 4 years! However, he gets his "free vacation" at Philmont every year with kids who
                have been several times, and are over 18, because that is the only thing that matters to him.

                I think that a good traditional active program with dedicated trained leaders and active parents works well and attracts new kids....everything I have seen tells me that a small program is generally a function of leaders not having been trained or having been unwilling to do it the "Scout" way. Our forming Venturing Crew is already oversubscribed because it is letting the kids recruit and select the activities...when it is formed they will direct the activiities under the supervision of the trained Crew Advisor and Trained Associate Advisors. If Venturing Leader training had been available to the Advisor and Associate Advisors the crew would have already been registered. It is oversubscribed because it includes "Perfume"...half the kids are athletic, attractive, refined and outdoorsy girls...15 to 21 year old year old boys want to be with girls...I want them all camping and hiking and getting sunlight with fresh air...not hanging around on Saturday nights in "Teen
                Clubs" that have "exctasy" and "pot" dealers working the crowd.....I want the kids to have peer led, adult leader facilitated "ethical discussions" as a part of the program...I will ask that each outing include a "Scouts Own" because that is the Scout way even though I have never seen a "Scouts Own" in any of the three troops I have been associated with over the last 12 years; evrytime I suggested one they said "we don't do that"...I want the boys to respect the girls as equals and as able peers. I want them to have "traditional values", be "morally straight", and "Be Prepared" to be leaders in their contemporary society. I want them to be "guides" in Scoutreach programs because they have a conscience and sense of responsibility to others. I want them to have FUN while they do these things !

                I want young adults to have a BSA designed Scout program that meets their needs and is age appropriate. I believe in Venturing and want to be a part of its being available to young adults! So I am trying to do it the Scout way in the 21st Century.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Matt Hannam
                Robert from reading your email it is evident to me that you share many of the same values as many of my friends in Rovering. Please check out the following
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 4, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Robert from reading your email it is evident to me that you share many of
                  the same values as many of my friends in Rovering. Please check out the
                  following website: www.usrovers.org <http://www.usrovers.org/> I would
                  like to invite you to start your own Rover Scout Crew (adult Scouting) in
                  your local area. The US Rovers is a growing organization which is dedicated
                  to supporting Scouting units while educating Scout leaders in traditional
                  skills while providing fellowship opportunities. The BSA does not offer
                  enough traditional/Scouting skills trainings. We realize that skilled
                  Scouters are made when they are given opportunities to practice skills
                  beyond OLSI training.



                  YIS,

                  Matt Hannam

                  Rover Scout Leader 2nd SWFL Rover Crew

                  Crew Advisor - Crew 4 - Cape Coral, FL - SWFL Council

                  BSA SWFL Council Panther District Training Chair



                  _____

                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Robert O'Donnell
                  Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 6:49 PM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Online Training



                  I just got back from a weekend camping trip at a local scout reservation and
                  sat down to go through e-mail. I am reeking of woodsmoke and am tired from a
                  long hike. I feel great! The kids who went were Webelos through
                  Tenderfoot...they were led by a Scout who didn't have a leadership role in
                  his own troop and serves as a guide for my "non-traditional" unit of younger
                  first time Scouts. The youth in my unit would never have seen Scouting if it
                  weren't for people who are interested in extending our Values based program
                  to inner city at-risk kids...ours is a Scoutreach effort.

                  I think BSA, like most succesful organizations, needs to be very dynamic. I
                  approve of the BSA designed format and work hard to deliver the Traditional
                  Values to kids who need it AND WANT IT! Without innovation and adaptation
                  Scouting will go the way of the Do-Do. I intend on assisting in getting a
                  Venturing Unit going with the parent of one of my daughters friends. We
                  approached my son's troop and asked if they would allow us to build their
                  registered Venturing Crew into something more than paperwork in a drawer.
                  The Scoutmaster, his wife (Committee Chair), and an old line Scout all said
                  NO!. Their reason for registering a Venture Crew, and not operating it, is
                  so they can take kids over 18 to Philmont. These old-line Scouters have not
                  done leader training in decades (if ever) and have watered down their
                  program because they are lazy. It isn't because they want to compete with
                  perfume and gasoline fumes...it is because they want to continue to do it
                  "the old way" ..and
                  each year they got further and further from "the old way" because they
                  discouraged new participants and new ideas. They were down to three camping
                  trips a year when the new parents came along three years ago. Fortunately
                  these new parents were trained leaders and got the calendar started, got the
                  resources of council activities into the troop, got the patrol method
                  restarted, got the camping trips organized, and did the driving, etc.

                  I am concerned that Scouting is getting watered down...but believe that is
                  because of lack of camping, failure to use the patrol method, and lack of
                  focus on traditional scout skills. I believe that it is because people don't
                  do it the way BSA teaches...because they forgot the "old way". I believe it
                  is because the guy who got his Eagle in 1960 and hasn't been on a weekend
                  camping trip in years, leaving it to the parents, is failing the kids he
                  serves. Memory and enthusiasm need to be refreshed. Training does that.
                  However most training is dull...the most important element of training is
                  "doing". Training where you get a lecture, while sitting in a plastic chair
                  for 8 hours, is DULL and SLOW. The dull slow stuff can be done online...the
                  DOING stuff can be done in person with other adults who have done the DULL
                  stuff by computer...that would work much better for me.

                  I recently completed Wood Badge for the 21th Century and came back
                  RECHARGED! I did Wood Badge in the 1990's and came back RECHARGED and then
                  went back to a Unit that wanted to do it "their way"...not the Scout Way. I
                  very much appreciated the NEW Wood Badge Course and am thrilled to have had
                  a great ScoutMaster/Course Director at my most recent Wood Badge
                  Training...he is a "role model" for me...he kept it fun, effective, and
                  moving at a great pace. He was well organized, didn't drop/waterdown
                  elements of the curiculum, and inspired me to be the leader that kids
                  deserve. This course was run by Westchester/Putnam Council.

                  Because of that course and the Course Directors example I am growing my
                  scoutreach program and I am helping to get the new Venturing Crew
                  established. We already have 15 kids who want to join Venturing and have
                  filled out applications. The Troop that said no to our Crew has only 15 Boy
                  Scouts in total...several in boarding school..They carry 30 Boy Scouts on
                  the roster, the balance have dropped out but are still carried on the roll
                  for "headcount"; that troop only has 9 or 10 Boy Scouts at any meeting.
                  There used to be forty active scouts in that troop. The Asst Scoutmaster
                  complains about older Cubs and Webelos on camping trips...there would be no
                  camping trips without the cubs and webelos parents....the ASM who runs the
                  troop doesn't even have a Drivers License...he has been absent from most of
                  the camping trips and yet he still complains. The SM hasn't been on a troop
                  camping trip in 4 years! However, he gets his "free vacation" at Philmont
                  every ye ar with kids who
                  have been several times, and are over 18, because that is the only thing
                  that matters to him.

                  I think that a good traditional active program with dedicated trained
                  leaders and active parents works well and attracts new kids....everything I
                  have seen tells me that a small program is generally a function of leaders
                  not having been trained or having been unwilling to do it the "Scout" way.
                  Our forming Venturing Crew is already oversubscribed because it is letting
                  the kids recruit and select the activities...when it is formed they will
                  direct the activiities under the supervision of the trained Crew Advisor and
                  Trained Associate Advisors. If Venturing Leader training had been available
                  to the Advisor and Associate Advisors the crew would have already been
                  registered. It is oversubscribed because it includes "Perfume"...half the
                  kids are athletic, attractive, refined and outdoorsy girls...15 to 21 year
                  old year old boys want to be with girls...I want them all camping and hiking
                  and getting sunlight with fresh air...not hanging around on Sa turday nights
                  in "Teen
                  Clubs" that have "exctasy" and "pot" dealers working the crowd.....I want
                  the kids to have peer led, adult leader facilitated "ethical discussions" as
                  a part of the program...I will ask that each outing include a "Scouts Own"
                  because that is the Scout way even though I have never seen a "Scouts Own"
                  in any of the three troops I have been associated with over the last 12
                  years; evrytime I suggested one they said "we don't do that"...I want the
                  boys to respect the girls as equals and as able peers. I want them to have
                  "traditional values", be "morally straight", and "Be Prepared" to be leaders
                  in their contemporary society. I want them to be "guides" in Scoutreach
                  programs because they have a conscience and sense of responsibility to
                  others. I want them to have FUN while they do these things !

                  I want young adults to have a BSA designed Scout program that meets their
                  needs and is age appropriate. I believe in Venturing and want to be a part
                  of its being available to young adults! So I am trying to do it the Scout
                  way in the 21st Century.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Steven Powell
                  Cross-post from Scouts-L that I thought would add some fuel to the discussion of online training or OLC. I have an opinion on this post and will share
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 2, 2007
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                    Cross-post from Scouts-L that I thought would add some fuel to the
                    discussion of online training or OLC. I have an opinion on this post and
                    will share shortly.



                    Steve Powell

                    Longs Peak Council

                    /////////////////////////////////////////////////

                    Regarding online learning, I received this e-mail from an education list I
                    am part of and thought I'd pass it along to share:





                    Sloan-C's Effective Practices collection is a steadily growing work in

                    progress that enables educators to share effective practices for teaching
                    and

                    learning online. The Sloan-C framework identifies five pillars as key
                    principles

                    for achieving quality, and to be included in the collection an effective

                    practice must demonstrate evidence of effectiveness in these areas.

                    The hallmarks of the quality pillars are:

                    * Learning Effectiveness: The provider demonstrates that the quality

                    of learning online is comparable to the quality of its traditional programs.


                    * Cost Effectiveness and Institutional Commitment: Institutions

                    continuously improve services while reducing cost.

                    * Access: All learners who wish to learn online have the opportunity

                    and can achieve success.

                    * Faculty Satisfaction: Faculty achieve success with teaching online,


                    citing appreciation and happiness.

                    * Student Satisfaction: Students are successful in learning online and


                    are pleased with their experience.

                    To build and share emerging knowledge and to recognize excellence, practices


                    nominated for inclusion in the Sloan-C collection meet these criteria:

                    * Innovation - the practice is inventive or original.

                    * Replicability - the practice can be implemented in a variety of

                    learning environments.

                    * Potential impact - the practice would advance the field if many

                    adopted it.

                    * Supporting documentation - the practice is supported with evidence

                    of effectiveness.

                    * Scope - the practice explains its relationship with other quality

                    elements.

                    View the Sloan-C Effective Practices at _www.sloan-c.org/effective_

                    (http://mail.ccie.com/go/eed/1473).

                    Learn more about Sloan-C at _www.sloan-c.org/index.asp_

                    (http://www.sloan-c.org/index.asp)

                    YIS,

                    Mary Cooper



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • george Bruckjr
                    I m not sure how relevent this is, but I have seen ALOT of posts in a couple of groups about the online training and wanted to share my thoughts. Some subjects
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 3, 2007
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                      I'm not sure how relevent this is, but I have seen
                      ALOT of posts in a couple of groups about the online
                      training and wanted to share my thoughts.

                      Some subjects definitely require human interaction at
                      least to some degree. I have taken several online
                      college courses, and one thing I found is that they
                      are more difficult to complete than taking a regular
                      class at the local community college even though the
                      curriculum is the same.

                      The onus is on the individual to learn the material
                      and it is difficult to ask questions....leading(at
                      least in my case) to a very good understanding of the
                      materials through having to study more. On the other
                      hand, it was often frustrating compared to my in class
                      courses where I could ask the instructor about thing
                      which either confused me or just to clarify a point.

                      I think that the online training is a good thing for
                      some subjects, like youth protection, but perhaps not
                      so much for things such as the unit committee
                      challenge as I believe the whole committee or at least
                      a majority should be together at the course.

                      Perhaps the BSA needs to research somehow which
                      subjects might be best served on the internet, which
                      should stay as an in session training format, and
                      which might benefit from a combination of some sort.

                      Under any circumstance, theres no such thing as too
                      much training, and the availability of the information
                      we now have via internet is a boon to those of us who
                      want to ensure the best programs possible for the
                      kids.

                      Just a couple of cents worth of opinion.



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