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Re: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

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  • JNDunnMN@aol.com
    I have always been baffled by people s objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in Ages and Stages . First of all, he s not in a Scouting
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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      I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

      Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

      While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

      YiS,
      Jamie Dunn
      Pack Trainer
      P. 512
      Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
      Cub Scout Training Chair
      Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
      3 Rivers District


      -----Original Message-----
      From: scouter@...
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


      In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
      Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
      again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
      as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
      include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
      where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
      and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
      him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
      the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
      recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

      My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
      and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
      videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

      Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
      training sessions?

      --
      YiS,
      Frank Maynard, NF8M
      MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
      ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
      Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
      Novi, Michigan



      ________________________________________________________________________
      Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Connie Knie
      Neil, While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank s team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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        Neil,
        While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and make more discussion time.

        What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow...........

        NeilLup@... wrote:


        I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I suggest that
        you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub Scouting
        Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.



        connie

        SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Connie Knie
        They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don t allow that
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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          They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don't allow that kind of contact. YP should always be applicable and no where is is clear his parents are around.
          There may not be a no physical contact rule anywhere and yes my younger Cubs hug me all the time too. But I do refrain from putting them on my lap and putting my arms around them. Some folks would consider it inappropriate contact......just my .02 we can always agree to disagree.......

          I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

          Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

          While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

          YiS,
          Jamie Dunn
          Pack Trainer
          P. 512
          Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
          Cub Scout Training Chair
          Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
          3 Rivers District


          -----Original Message-----
          From: scouter@...
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


          In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
          Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
          again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
          as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
          include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
          where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
          and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
          him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
          the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
          recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

          My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
          and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
          videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

          Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
          training sessions?

          --
          YiS,
          Frank Maynard, NF8M
          MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
          ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
          Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
          Novi, Michigan



          ________________________________________________________________________
          Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          connie

          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Frank Maynard
          ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he might as
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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            On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

            > no where is is clear his parents are around.

            The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
            implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
            might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

            I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
            paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
            how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
            adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
            across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
            his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

            BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
            & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

            --
            YiS,
            Frank Maynard, NF8M
            MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
            Novi, Michigan
          • Gerry Moon
            IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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              IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
              to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
              update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
              provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
              reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
              syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
              is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
              teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
              produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
              syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
              gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
              crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
              in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
              training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
              National guidance.

              Gerry Moon
              Orlando, FL


              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
              >
              > Neil,
              > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
              Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
              advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
              at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
              leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
              make more discussion time.
              >
              > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
              tomorrow...........
              >
              > NeilLup@... wrote:
              >
              >
              > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
              suggest that
              > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
              Scouting
              > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
              >
              >
              >
              > connie
              >
              > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Gerry Moon
              IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
                is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
                teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
                produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
                syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
                gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
                crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
                in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
                training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
                National guidance.

                Gerry Moon
                Orlando, FL


                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                >
                > Neil,
                > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
                Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
                advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
                at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
                leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
                make more discussion time.
                >
                > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
                tomorrow...........
                >
                > NeilLup@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
                suggest that
                > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
                Scouting
                > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
                >
                >
                >
                > connie
                >
                > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Kevin Pate
                Over the past few years I ve been washing and febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to others. As of Spring 2006, I m down to but a single hat,
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                  Over the past few years I've been washing and
                  febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to
                  others. As of Spring 2006, I'm down to but a single
                  hat, though sometimes I still have to duck when
                  someone decides I still resemble a hatrack.

                  Training is one of the hats that someone else now
                  wears, and I haven't been at the front of the room as
                  a trainer in a Cub Basic course for quite a spell.
                  But back when I was, as now, and I mean no disrespect
                  for the position noted by Frank and Connie, I share
                  jamie's mindset of not seeing a ypt issue in that
                  footage.

                  As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                  changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                  light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                  for example on the orange shirts:
                  back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                  in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                  visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                  orange shirts.
                  We finally got smart and found some not so
                  muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                  wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                  we still use orange, now it's in their
                  special orange necker, their hats & their
                  socks.

                  Kevin in Norman, America


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • Chad C. Cooper
                  My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group discussion to keep
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                    My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we
                    want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group
                    discussion to keep your audience engaged and thinking.

                    Personally, I think
                    a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training video.
                    b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                    behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                    conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                    responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                    adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                    fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                    - Chad
                    Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                    Apple Valley, MN

                    Frank Maynard wrote:
                    >
                    > In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
                    > Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
                    > again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
                    > as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
                    > include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
                    > where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
                    > and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
                    > him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
                    > the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
                    > recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.
                    >
                    > My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
                    > and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
                    > videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.
                    >
                    > Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
                    > training sessions?
                    >
                    > --
                    > YiS,
                    > Frank Maynard, NF8M
                    > MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                    > ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                    > Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                    > Novi, Michigan
                    >
                    >
                  • NeilLup@aol.com
                    ... That s why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to. Best wishes, Neil Lupton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                      In a message dated 8/16/06 5:58:54 PM, cknie23100@... writes:


                      >
                      > Neil,
                      > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                      > (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
                      > can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these
                      > again....... While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                      > (actually we are co-chairs) and while t
                      >
                      > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow.... Wha
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      That's why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to.

                      Best wishes,

                      Neil Lupton


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Meyers, E. Steve
                      I couldn t agree more. This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection. What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                        I couldn't agree more.

                        This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                        What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                        Protection are followed.

                        Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                        says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                        else near.

                        Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                        supersede reality.

                        Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                        that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                        touched "appropriately."



                        Steve Meyers

                        Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                        ________________________________

                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                        Personally, I think
                        a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                        video.
                        b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                        behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                        conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                        responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                        adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                        fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                        - Chad
                        Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                        Apple Valley, MN






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Matt Hannam
                        The BSA has the worst actors in America. _____ From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Maynard Sent: Wednesday,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                          The BSA has the worst actors in America.



                          _____

                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                          Of Frank Maynard
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:42 PM
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                          On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                          > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                          The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                          implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                          might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                          I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                          paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                          how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                          adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                          across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                          his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                          BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                          & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                          --
                          YiS,
                          Frank Maynard, NF8M
                          MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                          ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                          Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                          Novi, Michigan





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Andre Coltrin
                          Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :) ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :)

                            Frank Maynard <scouter@...> wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                            > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                            The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                            implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                            might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                            I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                            paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                            how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                            adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                            across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                            his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                            BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                            & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                            --
                            YiS,
                            Frank Maynard, NF8M
                            MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                            Novi, Michigan






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Michael Palmer
                            ... Obviously you have never seen a military training video MIke Palmer
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 18, 2006
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                              > (The BSA has the worst actors in America.)

                              Obviously you have never seen a military training video

                              MIke Palmer
                            • Gerry Moon
                              I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the Ages and Stages video and not turning that section into YP training. The point of this video
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                use it for awareness discussion.

                                Gerry Moon
                                Orlando, FL

                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > I couldn't agree more.
                                >
                                > This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth
                                protection.
                                >
                                > What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                                Youth
                                > Protection are followed.
                                >
                                > Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must
                                as Chad
                                > says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no
                                one
                                > else near.
                                >
                                > Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they
                                can't
                                > supersede reality.
                                >
                                > Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest,
                                but
                                > that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                > touched "appropriately."
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Steve Meyers
                                >
                                > Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                >
                                > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]
                                On
                                > Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                > Personally, I think
                                > a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                > video.
                                > b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                > behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                > conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks
                                and
                                > responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately,
                                the
                                > adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                > fortunately, your audience is going through this training.
                                >
                                > - Chad
                                > Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                > Apple Valley, MN
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Robert L. DeWitt
                                This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material. but
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                  This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be
                                  taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material.
                                  but lets remember that YP was in place when these videos were made. It is
                                  just that our notion of what constitutes a breach of YP has changed, and
                                  that is because of our sue happy culture.

                                  Robert L. DeWitt
                                  ASM Troop 12
                                  Chickasaw District
                                  Georgia Carolina Council
                                  Augusta, Ga
                                  And A Good Ole Bear SR-691


                                  _____

                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of Gerry Moon
                                  Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:17 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                                  I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                  and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                  point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                  demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                  situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                  apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                  a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                  best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                  out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                  use it for awareness discussion.



                                  .

                                  <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2804867&grpspId=1600066162&msgId
                                  =7180&stime=1156004249&nc1=3911048&nc2=3848597&nc3=3848586>



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                                • Ann Puckett
                                  The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don t want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                    The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don't want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do give them a hug now and then for either a good job done or maybe because something didn't go exactly their way - I know they respond well to this. You just have to use your best judgment and know when and when not to do something that may be considered inappropriate.

                                    Ann Puckett
                                    Troop 209 GR, MI
                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:35:36 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

                                    I couldn't agree more.

                                    This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                                    What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                                    Protection are followed.

                                    Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                                    says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                                    else near.

                                    Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                                    supersede reality.

                                    Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                                    that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                    touched "appropriately. "

                                    Steve Meyers

                                    Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                                    ____________ _________ _________ __

                                    From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com] On
                                    Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                    Personally, I think
                                    a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                    video.
                                    b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                    behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                    conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                                    responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                                    adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                    fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                                    - Chad
                                    Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                    Apple Valley, MN

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                                  • Connie Knie
                                    We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent. We had a training meeting a
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                      We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent.

                                      We had a training meeting a couple of nights ago and of course we are going to continue to follow the sylabus and continue to show the videos as required. One thing I really respect in my Co-chair is that he really stays focused and does not allow us to stray.........thanks Frank.

                                      Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                      I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                      and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training.

                                      connie

                                      SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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                                    • Frank Maynard
                                      As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on everyone s helpful
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                        As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last
                                        Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on
                                        everyone's helpful comments).

                                        Basically, we resolved (in keeping with the Trainer's Creed) to show the
                                        videos as provided, to make no mention of the lap incident (a subject
                                        better clarified in YPT) and to make a short disclaimer announcement at
                                        the end of the segments in which outdated Tiger Cub information is given.
                                        Otherwise, we stick with the syllabus as written. We usually expand the
                                        timing of the topic segments by a few minutes to allow for questions.

                                        --
                                        YiS,
                                        Frank Maynard, NF8M
                                        MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                                        ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                                        Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                                        Novi, Michigan
                                      • Connie Knie
                                        Well Frank s dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                          Well Frank's dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just a bit frustrated. We had a talk at the trainers planning meeting and we will just continue to point out the age of the video and talk about changes when necessary.........

                                          Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote: IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                                          to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                                          update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                                          provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                                          reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                                          syllabus seems rather cavalier to me.

                                          connie

                                          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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                                        • Connie Knie
                                          As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point. Kevin Pate wrote: As for the tapes not keeping up with the program changes, it
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                            As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point.

                                            Kevin Pate <kevinpate@...> wrote:
                                            As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                                            changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                                            light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                                            for example on the orange shirts:
                                            back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                                            in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                                            visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                                            orange shirts.
                                            We finally got smart and found some not so
                                            muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                                            wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                                            we still use orange, now it's in their
                                            special orange necker, their hats & their
                                            socks.

                                            Kevin in Norman, America


                                            __________________________________________________


                                            connie

                                            SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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