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Re: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

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  • NeilLup@aol.com
    ... The trainings and videos, etc. are continually being considered for revision although, as I am sure you appreciate, redoing a major video is a serious
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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      In a message dated 8/16/06 5:17:32 PM, scouter@... writes:


      >
      > In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
      > Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
      > again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
      > as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
      > include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
      > where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
      > and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
      > him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
      > the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
      > recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.
      >
      > My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
      > and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
      > videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.
      >
      > Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
      > training sessions?
      >
      > --
      > YiS,
      > Frank Maynard, NF8M
      > MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
      > ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
      > Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
      > Novi, Michigan
      >
      > Hello Frank,

      The trainings and videos, etc. are continually being considered for
      revision although, as I am sure you appreciate, redoing a major video is a serious
      expense.

      I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I suggest that
      you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub Scouting
      Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.

      Best wishes,

      Neil Lupton


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JNDunnMN@aol.com
      I have always been baffled by people s objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in Ages and Stages . First of all, he s not in a Scouting
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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        I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

        Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

        While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

        YiS,
        Jamie Dunn
        Pack Trainer
        P. 512
        Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
        Cub Scout Training Chair
        Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
        3 Rivers District


        -----Original Message-----
        From: scouter@...
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


        In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
        Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
        again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
        as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
        include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
        where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
        and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
        him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
        the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
        recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

        My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
        and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
        videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

        Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
        training sessions?

        --
        YiS,
        Frank Maynard, NF8M
        MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
        ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
        Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
        Novi, Michigan



        ________________________________________________________________________
        Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Connie Knie
        Neil, While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank s team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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          Neil,
          While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and make more discussion time.

          What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow...........

          NeilLup@... wrote:


          I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I suggest that
          you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub Scouting
          Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.



          connie

          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Connie Knie
          They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don t allow that
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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            They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don't allow that kind of contact. YP should always be applicable and no where is is clear his parents are around.
            There may not be a no physical contact rule anywhere and yes my younger Cubs hug me all the time too. But I do refrain from putting them on my lap and putting my arms around them. Some folks would consider it inappropriate contact......just my .02 we can always agree to disagree.......

            I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

            Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

            While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

            YiS,
            Jamie Dunn
            Pack Trainer
            P. 512
            Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
            Cub Scout Training Chair
            Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
            3 Rivers District


            -----Original Message-----
            From: scouter@...
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


            In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
            Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
            again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
            as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
            include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
            where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
            and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
            him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
            the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
            recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

            My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
            and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
            videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

            Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
            training sessions?

            --
            YiS,
            Frank Maynard, NF8M
            MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
            Novi, Michigan



            ________________________________________________________________________
            Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            connie

            SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank Maynard
            ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he might as
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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              On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

              > no where is is clear his parents are around.

              The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
              implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
              might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

              I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
              paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
              how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
              adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
              across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
              his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

              BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
              & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

              --
              YiS,
              Frank Maynard, NF8M
              MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
              ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
              Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
              Novi, Michigan
            • Gerry Moon
              IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
                is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
                teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
                produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
                syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
                gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
                crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
                in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
                training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
                National guidance.

                Gerry Moon
                Orlando, FL


                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                >
                > Neil,
                > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
                Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
                advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
                at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
                leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
                make more discussion time.
                >
                > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
                tomorrow...........
                >
                > NeilLup@... wrote:
                >
                >
                > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
                suggest that
                > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
                Scouting
                > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
                >
                >
                >
                > connie
                >
                > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Gerry Moon
                IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                  IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                  to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                  update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                  provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                  reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                  syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
                  is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
                  teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
                  produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
                  syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
                  gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
                  crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
                  in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
                  training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
                  National guidance.

                  Gerry Moon
                  Orlando, FL


                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Neil,
                  > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
                  Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
                  advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
                  at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
                  leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
                  make more discussion time.
                  >
                  > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
                  tomorrow...........
                  >
                  > NeilLup@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
                  suggest that
                  > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
                  Scouting
                  > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > connie
                  >
                  > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Kevin Pate
                  Over the past few years I ve been washing and febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to others. As of Spring 2006, I m down to but a single hat,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                    Over the past few years I've been washing and
                    febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to
                    others. As of Spring 2006, I'm down to but a single
                    hat, though sometimes I still have to duck when
                    someone decides I still resemble a hatrack.

                    Training is one of the hats that someone else now
                    wears, and I haven't been at the front of the room as
                    a trainer in a Cub Basic course for quite a spell.
                    But back when I was, as now, and I mean no disrespect
                    for the position noted by Frank and Connie, I share
                    jamie's mindset of not seeing a ypt issue in that
                    footage.

                    As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                    changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                    light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                    for example on the orange shirts:
                    back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                    in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                    visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                    orange shirts.
                    We finally got smart and found some not so
                    muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                    wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                    we still use orange, now it's in their
                    special orange necker, their hats & their
                    socks.

                    Kevin in Norman, America


                    __________________________________________________
                    Do You Yahoo!?
                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                  • Chad C. Cooper
                    My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group discussion to keep
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                      My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we
                      want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group
                      discussion to keep your audience engaged and thinking.

                      Personally, I think
                      a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training video.
                      b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                      behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                      conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                      responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                      adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                      fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                      - Chad
                      Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                      Apple Valley, MN

                      Frank Maynard wrote:
                      >
                      > In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
                      > Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
                      > again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
                      > as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
                      > include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
                      > where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
                      > and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
                      > him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
                      > the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
                      > recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.
                      >
                      > My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
                      > and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
                      > videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.
                      >
                      > Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
                      > training sessions?
                      >
                      > --
                      > YiS,
                      > Frank Maynard, NF8M
                      > MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                      > ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                      > Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                      > Novi, Michigan
                      >
                      >
                    • NeilLup@aol.com
                      ... That s why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to. Best wishes, Neil Lupton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                        In a message dated 8/16/06 5:58:54 PM, cknie23100@... writes:


                        >
                        > Neil,
                        > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                        > (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
                        > can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these
                        > again....... While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                        > (actually we are co-chairs) and while t
                        >
                        > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow.... Wha
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        That's why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to.

                        Best wishes,

                        Neil Lupton


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Meyers, E. Steve
                        I couldn t agree more. This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection. What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                          I couldn't agree more.

                          This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                          What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                          Protection are followed.

                          Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                          says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                          else near.

                          Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                          supersede reality.

                          Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                          that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                          touched "appropriately."



                          Steve Meyers

                          Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                          ________________________________

                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                          Personally, I think
                          a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                          video.
                          b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                          behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                          conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                          responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                          adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                          fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                          - Chad
                          Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                          Apple Valley, MN






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Matt Hannam
                          The BSA has the worst actors in America. _____ From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Maynard Sent: Wednesday,
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The BSA has the worst actors in America.



                            _____

                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Frank Maynard
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:42 PM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                            On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                            > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                            The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                            implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                            might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                            I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                            paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                            how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                            adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                            across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                            his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                            BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                            & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                            --
                            YiS,
                            Frank Maynard, NF8M
                            MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                            Novi, Michigan





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Andre Coltrin
                            Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :) ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                              Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :)

                              Frank Maynard <scouter@...> wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                              > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                              The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                              implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                              might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                              I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                              paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                              how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                              adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                              across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                              his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                              BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                              & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                              --
                              YiS,
                              Frank Maynard, NF8M
                              MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                              ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                              Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                              Novi, Michigan






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Michael Palmer
                              ... Obviously you have never seen a military training video MIke Palmer
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 18, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                > (The BSA has the worst actors in America.)

                                Obviously you have never seen a military training video

                                MIke Palmer
                              • Gerry Moon
                                I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the Ages and Stages video and not turning that section into YP training. The point of this video
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                  and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                  point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                  demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                  situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                  apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                  a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                  best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                  out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                  use it for awareness discussion.

                                  Gerry Moon
                                  Orlando, FL

                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I couldn't agree more.
                                  >
                                  > This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth
                                  protection.
                                  >
                                  > What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                                  Youth
                                  > Protection are followed.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must
                                  as Chad
                                  > says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no
                                  one
                                  > else near.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they
                                  can't
                                  > supersede reality.
                                  >
                                  > Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest,
                                  but
                                  > that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                  > touched "appropriately."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Steve Meyers
                                  >
                                  > Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On
                                  > Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                  > Personally, I think
                                  > a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                  > video.
                                  > b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                  > behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                  > conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks
                                  and
                                  > responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately,
                                  the
                                  > adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                  > fortunately, your audience is going through this training.
                                  >
                                  > - Chad
                                  > Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                  > Apple Valley, MN
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Robert L. DeWitt
                                  This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material. but
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                    This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be
                                    taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material.
                                    but lets remember that YP was in place when these videos were made. It is
                                    just that our notion of what constitutes a breach of YP has changed, and
                                    that is because of our sue happy culture.

                                    Robert L. DeWitt
                                    ASM Troop 12
                                    Chickasaw District
                                    Georgia Carolina Council
                                    Augusta, Ga
                                    And A Good Ole Bear SR-691


                                    _____

                                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    Of Gerry Moon
                                    Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:17 PM
                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                                    I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                    and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                    point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                    demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                    situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                    apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                    a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                    best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                    out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                    use it for awareness discussion.



                                    .

                                    <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2804867&grpspId=1600066162&msgId
                                    =7180&stime=1156004249&nc1=3911048&nc2=3848597&nc3=3848586>



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Ann Puckett
                                    The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don t want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                      The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don't want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do give them a hug now and then for either a good job done or maybe because something didn't go exactly their way - I know they respond well to this. You just have to use your best judgment and know when and when not to do something that may be considered inappropriate.

                                      Ann Puckett
                                      Troop 209 GR, MI
                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:35:36 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

                                      I couldn't agree more.

                                      This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                                      What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                                      Protection are followed.

                                      Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                                      says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                                      else near.

                                      Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                                      supersede reality.

                                      Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                                      that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                      touched "appropriately. "

                                      Steve Meyers

                                      Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                                      ____________ _________ _________ __

                                      From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com] On
                                      Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                      Personally, I think
                                      a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                      video.
                                      b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                      behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                      conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                                      responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                                      adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                      fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                                      - Chad
                                      Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                      Apple Valley, MN

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Connie Knie
                                      We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent. We had a training meeting a
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                        We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent.

                                        We had a training meeting a couple of nights ago and of course we are going to continue to follow the sylabus and continue to show the videos as required. One thing I really respect in my Co-chair is that he really stays focused and does not allow us to stray.........thanks Frank.

                                        Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                        I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                        and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training.

                                        connie

                                        SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Frank Maynard
                                        As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on everyone s helpful
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                          As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last
                                          Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on
                                          everyone's helpful comments).

                                          Basically, we resolved (in keeping with the Trainer's Creed) to show the
                                          videos as provided, to make no mention of the lap incident (a subject
                                          better clarified in YPT) and to make a short disclaimer announcement at
                                          the end of the segments in which outdated Tiger Cub information is given.
                                          Otherwise, we stick with the syllabus as written. We usually expand the
                                          timing of the topic segments by a few minutes to allow for questions.

                                          --
                                          YiS,
                                          Frank Maynard, NF8M
                                          MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                                          ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                                          Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                                          Novi, Michigan
                                        • Connie Knie
                                          Well Frank s dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                            Well Frank's dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just a bit frustrated. We had a talk at the trainers planning meeting and we will just continue to point out the age of the video and talk about changes when necessary.........

                                            Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote: IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                                            to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                                            update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                                            provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                                            reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                                            syllabus seems rather cavalier to me.

                                            connie

                                            SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Connie Knie
                                            As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point. Kevin Pate wrote: As for the tapes not keeping up with the program changes, it
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                              As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point.

                                              Kevin Pate <kevinpate@...> wrote:
                                              As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                                              changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                                              light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                                              for example on the orange shirts:
                                              back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                                              in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                                              visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                                              orange shirts.
                                              We finally got smart and found some not so
                                              muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                                              wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                                              we still use orange, now it's in their
                                              special orange necker, their hats & their
                                              socks.

                                              Kevin in Norman, America


                                              __________________________________________________


                                              connie

                                              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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