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Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

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  • Frank Maynard
    In getting ready for the new training season I was reviewing the New Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was again reminded
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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      In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
      Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
      again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
      as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
      include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
      where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
      and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
      him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
      the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
      recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

      My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
      and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
      videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

      Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
      training sessions?

      --
      YiS,
      Frank Maynard, NF8M
      MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
      ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
      Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
      Novi, Michigan
    • NeilLup@aol.com
      ... The trainings and videos, etc. are continually being considered for revision although, as I am sure you appreciate, redoing a major video is a serious
      Message 2 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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        In a message dated 8/16/06 5:17:32 PM, scouter@... writes:


        >
        > In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
        > Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
        > again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
        > as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
        > include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
        > where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
        > and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
        > him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
        > the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
        > recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.
        >
        > My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
        > and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
        > videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.
        >
        > Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
        > training sessions?
        >
        > --
        > YiS,
        > Frank Maynard, NF8M
        > MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
        > ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
        > Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
        > Novi, Michigan
        >
        > Hello Frank,

        The trainings and videos, etc. are continually being considered for
        revision although, as I am sure you appreciate, redoing a major video is a serious
        expense.

        I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I suggest that
        you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub Scouting
        Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.

        Best wishes,

        Neil Lupton


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • JNDunnMN@aol.com
        I have always been baffled by people s objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in Ages and Stages . First of all, he s not in a Scouting
        Message 3 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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          I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

          Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

          While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

          YiS,
          Jamie Dunn
          Pack Trainer
          P. 512
          Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
          Cub Scout Training Chair
          Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
          3 Rivers District


          -----Original Message-----
          From: scouter@...
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


          In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
          Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
          again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
          as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
          include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
          where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
          and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
          him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
          the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
          recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

          My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
          and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
          videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

          Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
          training sessions?

          --
          YiS,
          Frank Maynard, NF8M
          MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
          ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
          Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
          Novi, Michigan



          ________________________________________________________________________
          Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Connie Knie
          Neil, While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank s team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
          Message 4 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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            Neil,
            While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and make more discussion time.

            What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow...........

            NeilLup@... wrote:


            I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I suggest that
            you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub Scouting
            Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.



            connie

            SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Connie Knie
            They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don t allow that
            Message 5 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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              They might not be in a scout setting but they are definitely talking about scouting and obviously this is a scout leader. Even the schools don't allow that kind of contact. YP should always be applicable and no where is is clear his parents are around.
              There may not be a no physical contact rule anywhere and yes my younger Cubs hug me all the time too. But I do refrain from putting them on my lap and putting my arms around them. Some folks would consider it inappropriate contact......just my .02 we can always agree to disagree.......

              I have always been baffled by people's objections to the adult putting the small boy on his lap in "Ages and Stages". First of all, he's not in a Scouting setting, so YP isn't really applicable - clearly the boy's parents are somewhere in the vicinity. Second, since when does YP require that we have no physical contact with a Scout? Scouts in my pack hug me all the time. And I hug them back.

              Read the barriers to abuse - it doesn't say anything about contact. Granted, inappropriate contact is part of the grooming process, but that's not what we're talking about here. And it's not addressed in Scouting literature.

              While there are some video segments showing orange shirts, I don't think they're very prominent. I no longer use the uniforming poster, since it does show the orange shirt. As for the other changes, I just explain that the program has changed, and talk about the current practice.

              YiS,
              Jamie Dunn
              Pack Trainer
              P. 512
              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
              Cub Scout Training Chair
              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
              3 Rivers District


              -----Original Message-----
              From: scouter@...
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, 16 Aug 2006 4:12 PM
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos


              In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
              Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
              again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
              as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
              include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
              where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
              and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
              him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
              the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
              recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.

              My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
              and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
              videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.

              Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
              training sessions?

              --
              YiS,
              Frank Maynard, NF8M
              MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
              ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
              Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
              Novi, Michigan



              ________________________________________________________________________
              Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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              connie

              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Frank Maynard
              ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he might as
              Message 6 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                --
                YiS,
                Frank Maynard, NF8M
                MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                Novi, Michigan
              • Gerry Moon
                IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
                Message 7 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                  IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                  to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                  update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                  provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                  reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                  syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
                  is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
                  teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
                  produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
                  syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
                  gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
                  crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
                  in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
                  training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
                  National guidance.

                  Gerry Moon
                  Orlando, FL


                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Neil,
                  > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
                  Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
                  advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
                  at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
                  leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
                  make more discussion time.
                  >
                  > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
                  tomorrow...........
                  >
                  > NeilLup@... wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
                  suggest that
                  > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
                  Scouting
                  > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > connie
                  >
                  > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Gerry Moon
                  IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an update. By all means,
                  Message 8 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                    IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                    to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                    update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                    provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                    reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                    syllabus seems rather cavalier to me. I am confident that National
                    is aware of the status of the training videos. If we were allowed to
                    teach what we thought needed to be taught there would be no need to
                    produce a syllabus. Don't lose sight of the fact that a national
                    syllabus ensures that every Scout leader trained anywhere we operate
                    gets the same information. Dont misunderstand me - I think they are
                    crummy tools in today's program but alas, they are the newest tool
                    in the shed - unless y'all have exclusive rights to develop your own
                    training syllabus, seems to be the right thing to do to follow
                    National guidance.

                    Gerry Moon
                    Orlando, FL


                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Neil,
                    > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on
                    Frank's team (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good
                    advice for the future what can we do for this year? I really cringe
                    at the idea of showing these again........I would almost rather
                    leave them out entirely and write a synopsis of what they say and
                    make more discussion time.
                    >
                    > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT
                    tomorrow...........
                    >
                    > NeilLup@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I believe that a major revision is now being considered. May I
                    suggest that
                    > you write up your critiques, etc. and send them to the Cub
                    Scouting
                    > Division in Irving TX. I know that they will be considered.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > connie
                    >
                    > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Kevin Pate
                    Over the past few years I ve been washing and febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to others. As of Spring 2006, I m down to but a single hat,
                    Message 9 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                      Over the past few years I've been washing and
                      febreezing my hat collection and passing them on to
                      others. As of Spring 2006, I'm down to but a single
                      hat, though sometimes I still have to duck when
                      someone decides I still resemble a hatrack.

                      Training is one of the hats that someone else now
                      wears, and I haven't been at the front of the room as
                      a trainer in a Cub Basic course for quite a spell.
                      But back when I was, as now, and I mean no disrespect
                      for the position noted by Frank and Connie, I share
                      jamie's mindset of not seeing a ypt issue in that
                      footage.

                      As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                      changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                      light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                      for example on the orange shirts:
                      back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                      in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                      visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                      orange shirts.
                      We finally got smart and found some not so
                      muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                      wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                      we still use orange, now it's in their
                      special orange necker, their hats & their
                      socks.

                      Kevin in Norman, America


                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      http://mail.yahoo.com
                    • Chad C. Cooper
                      My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group discussion to keep
                      Message 10 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                        My $.02. Use the video as a teaching moment. The same approach that we
                        want to leaders to use with the boys. A fine time to use group
                        discussion to keep your audience engaged and thinking.

                        Personally, I think
                        a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training video.
                        b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                        behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                        conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                        responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                        adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                        fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                        - Chad
                        Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                        Apple Valley, MN

                        Frank Maynard wrote:
                        >
                        > In getting ready for the new training "season" I was reviewing the New
                        > Leader Essentials and Cub Leader Specific videotapes last night and was
                        > again reminded of the sometimes glaring discrepancies between the videos
                        > as we have them and the program as it stands. Some specific examples
                        > include the 1991 Ages & Stages (these kids are all out of college now!)
                        > where the scout leader actually places a boy (not his son) *on his lap*
                        > and teaches him to tie a square knot, then gives him a hug before sending
                        > him on his way (which I'm sure is a violation of youth protection rules);
                        > the segments showing Tiger Cubs wearing orange shirts; and the
                        > recently-changed Bobcat rule for Tiger Cubs.
                        >
                        > My staff and I really hate showing these videos to a group of new leaders
                        > and having to explain that they are wrong. I've thought about editing the
                        > videos or preparing a "disclaimer" handout to give to students.
                        >
                        > Has anyone else dealt with this issue? If so, how do you handle it in your
                        > training sessions?
                        >
                        > --
                        > YiS,
                        > Frank Maynard, NF8M
                        > MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                        > ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                        > Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                        > Novi, Michigan
                        >
                        >
                      • NeilLup@aol.com
                        ... That s why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to. Best wishes, Neil Lupton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 22 , Aug 16, 2006
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                          In a message dated 8/16/06 5:58:54 PM, cknie23100@... writes:


                          >
                          > Neil,
                          > While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                          > (actually we are co-chairs) and while this is good advice for the future what
                          > can we do for this year? I really cringe at the idea of showing these
                          > again....... While I appreciate your advice, I am one of the trainers on Frank's team
                          > (actually we are co-chairs) and while t
                          >
                          > What say you Frank?? I know I will see you at RT tomorrow.... Wha
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          That's why I love PowerPoint. You can make changes as you need to.

                          Best wishes,

                          Neil Lupton


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Meyers, E. Steve
                          I couldn t agree more. This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection. What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                            I couldn't agree more.

                            This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                            What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                            Protection are followed.

                            Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                            says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                            else near.

                            Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                            supersede reality.

                            Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                            that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                            touched "appropriately."



                            Steve Meyers

                            Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                            ________________________________

                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                            Personally, I think
                            a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                            video.
                            b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                            behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                            conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                            responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                            adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                            fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                            - Chad
                            Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                            Apple Valley, MN






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Matt Hannam
                            The BSA has the worst actors in America. _____ From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Maynard Sent: Wednesday,
                            Message 13 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              The BSA has the worst actors in America.



                              _____

                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Frank Maynard
                              Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:42 PM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                              On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                              > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                              The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                              implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                              might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                              I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                              paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                              how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                              adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                              across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                              his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                              BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                              & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                              --
                              YiS,
                              Frank Maynard, NF8M
                              MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                              ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                              Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                              Novi, Michigan





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Andre Coltrin
                              Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :) ... The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other
                              Message 14 of 22 , Aug 17, 2006
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                                Well it just goes to show you that it usually is not a stranger that turns out to be one of the bad guys. :)

                                Frank Maynard <scouter@...> wrote: On Wed, 16 Aug 2006, Connie Knie wrote:

                                > no where is is clear his parents are around.

                                The dad is pitching horseshoes with some other adults and the video
                                implies that the dad is too busy to pay attention to the little one, so he
                                might as well not be there. No clue as to where mom is.

                                I know that no harm is done and the scout leader is doing a nice thing by
                                paying attention to the kid. The scene does a good job of underscoring
                                how kids that age need attention from their parents or other caring
                                adults, but I'd be more comfortable if they were sitting side by side, or
                                across from each other since they are presumably not related. (He could be
                                his uncle, maybe, but that's not made clear.)

                                BTW, how many people have noticed that one of the friendly adults in Ages
                                & Stages is also one of the "bad guys" in It Happened To Me?

                                --
                                YiS,
                                Frank Maynard, NF8M
                                MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                                ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                                Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                                Novi, Michigan






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Michael Palmer
                                ... Obviously you have never seen a military training video MIke Palmer
                                Message 15 of 22 , Aug 18, 2006
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                                  > (The BSA has the worst actors in America.)

                                  Obviously you have never seen a military training video

                                  MIke Palmer
                                • Gerry Moon
                                  I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the Ages and Stages video and not turning that section into YP training. The point of this video
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                    and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                    point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                    demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                    situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                    apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                    a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                    best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                    out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                    use it for awareness discussion.

                                    Gerry Moon
                                    Orlando, FL

                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I couldn't agree more.
                                    >
                                    > This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth
                                    protection.
                                    >
                                    > What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of
                                    Youth
                                    > Protection are followed.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must
                                    as Chad
                                    > says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no
                                    one
                                    > else near.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they
                                    can't
                                    > supersede reality.
                                    >
                                    > Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest,
                                    but
                                    > that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                    > touched "appropriately."
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Steve Meyers
                                    >
                                    > Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council
                                    >
                                    > ________________________________
                                    >
                                    > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]
                                    On
                                    > Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                    > Personally, I think
                                    > a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                    > video.
                                    > b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                    > behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                    > conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks
                                    and
                                    > responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately,
                                    the
                                    > adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                    > fortunately, your audience is going through this training.
                                    >
                                    > - Chad
                                    > Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                    > Apple Valley, MN
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Robert L. DeWitt
                                    This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material. but
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                      This is what I see. I also think that we should teach as it is written to be
                                      taught. I understand that people have questions about the subject material.
                                      but lets remember that YP was in place when these videos were made. It is
                                      just that our notion of what constitutes a breach of YP has changed, and
                                      that is because of our sue happy culture.

                                      Robert L. DeWitt
                                      ASM Troop 12
                                      Chickasaw District
                                      Georgia Carolina Council
                                      Augusta, Ga
                                      And A Good Ole Bear SR-691


                                      _____

                                      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Gerry Moon
                                      Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2006 12:17 PM
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos



                                      I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                      and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training. The
                                      point of this video (as far as I am able to determine) is to
                                      demonstrate that boys of different ages react differently to
                                      situations and that what applies to an older boy doesn't necessarily
                                      apply to a younger one. I'm saddened by the focus on that man being
                                      a potential child molester at worst or one with poor judgement at
                                      best. Maybe we ought to teach NLE as NLE and when we teach YP, point
                                      out that in NLE there is a good example of one-on-one contact and
                                      use it for awareness discussion.



                                      .

                                      <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=2804867&grpspId=1600066162&msgId
                                      =7180&stime=1156004249&nc1=3911048&nc2=3848597&nc3=3848586>



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Ann Puckett
                                      The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don t want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Aug 19, 2006
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                                        The day I have to stop giving appropriate hugs to kids, is the day I don't want to be involved. I have a great relationship with the boys in my Troop and I do give them a hug now and then for either a good job done or maybe because something didn't go exactly their way - I know they respond well to this. You just have to use your best judgment and know when and when not to do something that may be considered inappropriate.

                                        Ann Puckett
                                        Troop 209 GR, MI
                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: "Meyers, E. Steve" <meyerses@...>
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 8:35:36 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Discrepancies in NLE/CSLST videos

                                        I couldn't agree more.

                                        This is an excellent start for the discussion about youth protection.

                                        What the actor did is perfectly acceptable provided the rules of Youth
                                        Protection are followed.

                                        Sometimes a boy needs to be held to feel secure and valued, must as Chad
                                        says with due caution and under supervision, not in a park with no one
                                        else near.

                                        Sometimes appearances are more important than reality! But they can't
                                        supersede reality.

                                        Saying to never touch a youth is simply wrong; it may be safest, but
                                        that doesn't make it right. They don't feel valued unless they are
                                        touched "appropriately. "

                                        Steve Meyers

                                        Troop 133, Great Smoky Mountain Council

                                        ____________ _________ _________ __

                                        From: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com] On
                                        Behalf Of Chad C. Cooper
                                        Personally, I think
                                        a) That this is not the best example to be including in a training
                                        video.
                                        b) There are probably as many situations where this is acceptable
                                        behavior as not. It takes a judgment call (and, hopefully a
                                        conservative one) by the adult leader that understands the risks and
                                        responsibilities to evaluate the current situation. Fortunately, the
                                        adult leader in the example has been through YP training. And,
                                        fortunately, your audience is going through this training.

                                        - Chad
                                        Troop 293, Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council
                                        Apple Valley, MN

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Connie Knie
                                        We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent. We had a training meeting a
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                          We are focusing on the NLE part of the training for sure. I guess I just want to make sure there are no mixed messages being sent.

                                          We had a training meeting a couple of nights ago and of course we are going to continue to follow the sylabus and continue to show the videos as required. One thing I really respect in my Co-chair is that he really stays focused and does not allow us to stray.........thanks Frank.

                                          Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                          I hope we are focused on teaching NLE when we are showing the "Ages
                                          and Stages" video and not turning that section into YP training.

                                          connie

                                          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Frank Maynard
                                          As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on everyone s helpful
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Aug 21, 2006
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                                            As Connie mentioned, our district training staff discussed this last
                                            Thursday (then I was off to a weekend campout and just got caught up on
                                            everyone's helpful comments).

                                            Basically, we resolved (in keeping with the Trainer's Creed) to show the
                                            videos as provided, to make no mention of the lap incident (a subject
                                            better clarified in YPT) and to make a short disclaimer announcement at
                                            the end of the segments in which outdated Tiger Cub information is given.
                                            Otherwise, we stick with the syllabus as written. We usually expand the
                                            timing of the topic segments by a few minutes to allow for questions.

                                            --
                                            YiS,
                                            Frank Maynard, NF8M
                                            MC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
                                            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
                                            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council
                                            Novi, Michigan
                                          • Connie Knie
                                            Well Frank s dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                              Well Frank's dedication to doing it right prevailed and of course we teach exactly what National mandates. And I really have no problem with that at all. Just a bit frustrated. We had a talk at the trainers planning meeting and we will just continue to point out the age of the video and talk about changes when necessary.........

                                              Gerry Moon <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote: IMHO, the current syllabus provided to us by National is what needs
                                              to be taught (videos included) until National provides us with an
                                              update. By all means, point out that these are the last videos
                                              provided to us and that the many recent program changes are not
                                              reflected in them, but omitting parts of the nationally-approved
                                              syllabus seems rather cavalier to me.

                                              connie

                                              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Connie Knie
                                              As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point. Kevin Pate wrote: As for the tapes not keeping up with the program changes, it
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Aug 22, 2006
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                                                As usual Kevin your humor makes a wonderful point.

                                                Kevin Pate <kevinpate@...> wrote:
                                                As for the tapes not keeping up with the program
                                                changes, it probably takes about 15 seconds to make
                                                light of an out of date moment and then go forward ...
                                                for example on the orange shirts:
                                                back in the day, Tiger Cubs walked 3 miles
                                                in deep mud for every go-see-it, so to keep
                                                visible, we put Tigers and adults in bright
                                                orange shirts.
                                                We finally got smart and found some not so
                                                muddy go-see-its around 2004. Now Tigers
                                                wear the blue uniform like other Cubs, but
                                                we still use orange, now it's in their
                                                special orange necker, their hats & their
                                                socks.

                                                Kevin in Norman, America


                                                __________________________________________________


                                                connie

                                                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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