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Combining OWL & BALOO

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  • brant@lippincott.us
    Hi all, I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past. Anyway... Any & all input appreciated. 1st thought - It seems to me that there is a
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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      Hi all,

      I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past. Anyway... Any & all input appreciated.

      1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list & schedule??

      2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS. I'm not sure how the combined plan of teaching something for 30 minutes to BOTH, then 10 minutes for just the Webelos leaders is supposed to work -- especailly when they don't put anything in the syllabus of what topics to cover separately.

      For the Boys,
      Brant


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • JNDunnMN@aol.com
      ... I find very little crossover between the two courses. Den camping and pack camping are so different, that I would hesitate to try to combine these. ... We
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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        >>1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy between OWL &
        >>BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list & schedule??
        I find very little crossover between the two courses. Den camping and pack camping are so different,
        that I would hesitate to try to combine these.

        >> 2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that much different
        >>from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS. I'm not sure how the combined
        >>plan of teaching something for 30 minutes to BOTH, then 10 minutes for just the
        >>Webelos leaders is supposed to work -- especailly when they don't put anything
        >>in the syllabus of what topics to cover separately.

        We actually haven't formally tried this yet, but did informally something similar a couple years ago.
        The trainer went into more detail on the topic, giving it a Webelos slant. It was very well received.

        YiS,Jamie DunnPack TrainerP. 512Blaine/Coon Rapids, MNCub Scout Training Chair3 Rivers District


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Judy Yeager
        Brant wrote, It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list & schedule?? To start with, the
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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          Brant wrote, "It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list & schedule??"

          To start with, the target audiences for these two training are totally different. BALOO is all about Pack overnighters, while OWL is about Webelos camping and these are two very different animals! BALOO is the introductory outdoor training course, while OWL is the intermediate course (with IOLS being the advanced course.) There is a good section of time during OWL devoted to Webelos Activity Badges which would not be appropriate for the BALOO audience.

          YMMV, but in my mind, combining these two courses would be like trying to teach Algebra I and Algebra II as one class. It just wouldn't do justice to either one.

          Regarding your second thought, I don't see any advantage in running OWL and IOLS together, except facility usage and staffing. The problem I see with this concept is that when the Webelos Leader bridges with his son and becomes a BS Leader, he will probably have to take IOLS and he's already experienced a good part of it in the combined course. Probably wouldn't be a happy camper with that much of a redo unless you're a real training junkie!

          My $.02 worth.

          Judy Yeager


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sandra Martens
          We have been combining the two for the last 2 years. We are a small council without a lot of trainers, and BS Outdoor is held on the same weekend. While BALOO
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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            We have been combining the two for the last 2 years. We are a small council without a lot of trainers, and BS Outdoor is held on the same weekend.

            While BALOO does the planning, safety, aims and purposes, video, etc the OWL people do the activity pins (geologist, forester, naturalist, and knots)

            Then after lunch we do separate activities (BALOO does nature hike, wiggleworm hunt, hug a tree, and make a nature critter while OWL does a scavenger hunt, fire starters, bug cage, and break geodes) Both do a blind tent relay.

            Then we have joint classes- first aid, cooking, sanitation, site selection and tentage, flag ceremonies, and campfire planning. Both cook their dinner and we do a joint campfire and ceremony.

            It works well, and you need less people to teach.

            Sandy OWL

            brant@... wrote:
            Hi all,

            I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past. Anyway... Any & all input appreciated.

            1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list & schedule??

            2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS. I'm not sure how the combined plan of teaching something for 30 minutes to BOTH, then 10 minutes for just the Webelos leaders is supposed to work -- especailly when they don't put anything in the syllabus of what topics to cover separately.

            For the Boys,
            Brant


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • ed5870@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/20/2006 7:35:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, sandyowl1@yahoo.com writes: We have been combining the two for the last 2 years. We are a
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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              In a message dated 1/20/2006 7:35:30 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
              sandyowl1@... writes:

              We have been combining the two for the last 2 years. We are a small council
              without a lot of trainers


              Neither do we and I would never combine them I fell this is a real
              disservice to your people they are two different courses!!!!

              Ed Harvey
              Cub Training Chair Tri-Valley District
              Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
              THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
              Hudson Valley Council
              I used to be an Antelope


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            • Dave Loomis
              National has released the now OWL/WOLT syllabus featuring combining it with IOLS. Any combination of BALOO and OWL/WOLT make no sense at all, as the former is
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 20, 2006
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                National has released the now OWL/WOLT syllabus featuring combining it
                with IOLS. Any combination of BALOO and OWL/WOLT make no sense at all,
                as the former is designed for people in the Pack to be able to check out
                outdoor camps or experiences for family camping, while IOLS and OWL/WOLT
                deal with taking a group of boys into the outdoors.

                The new syllabus combines:
                The Opening Assembly
                Woods Tools
                Fire Site Preparation and Building
                Cooking and Sanitation (parts)
                Ropes and Knots (parts)
                Interfaith Worship
                First Aid
                in the new syllabus with IOLS presentations of these topics.

                Dave

                brant@... wrote:
                > Hi all,
                >
                >
                > 2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS. I'm not sure how the combined plan of teaching something for 30 minutes to BOTH, then 10 minutes for just the Webelos leaders is supposed to work -- especailly when they don't put anything in the syllabus of what topics to cover separately.
                >
                > For the Boys,
                > Brant
                >
                >

                To reply, click on the address below.

                Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
              • Joyce Gaddis
                I am in the process of combining the new OWL and IOLS. What a pain!!! You almost need two seperate staffs. It is like putting two courses on at the same
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 21, 2006
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                  I am in the process of combining the new OWL and IOLS. What a
                  pain!!! You almost need two seperate staffs. It is like putting two
                  courses on at the same time and same place. Seems to me to be
                  another one of BSA's half-baked "Let's try this" schemes!!! I think
                  it is a great idea to combine OWL nad IOLS training to further
                  strengthen the bond between the two groups. Yes, I understand that
                  Webelos are still Cub Scouts and have different programs, but the
                  Webelos Outdoor program should be preparing the boys AND leaders for
                  Boy Scout outdoor programs.

                  Joyce Gaddis
                  SM Troop 23 Eddington
                  NE 1-224 Bear Patrol
                  NE 1-239 Troop Guide

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, <brant@l...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi all,
                  >
                  > I think there was some discussion about this topic in the past.
                  Anyway... Any & all input appreciated.
                  >
                  > 1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy
                  between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list &
                  schedule??
                  >
                  > 2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that
                  much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS. I'm
                  not sure how the combined plan of teaching something for 30 minutes
                  to BOTH, then 10 minutes for just the Webelos leaders is supposed to
                  work -- especailly when they don't put anything in the syllabus of
                  what topics to cover separately.
                  >
                  > For the Boys,
                  > Brant
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Kevin Pate
                  ... the ... Only to a limited extent. The Webelos Scouts have available to them a fairly good, and very age appropriate, outdoor program of their own. When
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 21, 2006
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                    > ... the Webelos Outdoor program should be preparing
                    the
                    > boys AND leaders for Boy Scout outdoor programs.

                    Only to a limited extent. The Webelos Scouts have
                    available to them a fairly good, and very age
                    appropriate, outdoor program of their own. When
                    applying that program as it's intended, the end result
                    will be young Scouts who are eagerly looking forward
                    to Boy Scouts when they enter the troop. Far better
                    to have exceptionally eager lads looking toward new
                    things than lads arriving and quickly developing a
                    been there, done that view of Boy Scouts.

                    Webelos Leader Outdoor Skills Training should have as
                    its primary function the training of prospective
                    Webelos Leaders, i.e. Bear parents and Bear leaders,
                    and really new Webelos Leaders. Its focus is, at
                    least I assume the new syllabus hasn't changed too
                    greatly from the former, on how best to deliver the
                    outdoor aspects for Webelos Scouts in their
                    transitional program between Cub Scouts and Boy
                    Scouts, including a significant focus on the outdoor
                    oriented Webelos Scouts Activity badges.

                    While I can see there are ways to have OWLS and IOLS
                    at the same property, with some shared staff and
                    shared sessions, or partial sessions at least, it's
                    not a surpise to me at all that it would seem to
                    require two staffs. After all, two very different
                    skill sets are being taught to two very different
                    audiences.



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                  • Sandra Martens
                    the main problem I have with the combined OWL/IOLS courses is that the Webelos leaders then use and teach the Boy Scout skills in their Webelos dens. OWL is
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 21, 2006
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                      the main problem I have with the combined OWL/IOLS courses is that the Webelos leaders then use and teach the Boy Scout skills in their Webelos dens. OWL is to give Bear and beginning Webelos leaders the skills to teach Webelos outdoor skills, not BS ones. That is why, because of staff shortage, we combine OWL and BALOO rather than OWL and IOLS. Our combined syllabus makes sure each different session gets only what they are suppose to get, and not the other. We combine only when the syllabi teach just about the same things- site selection, tentage, cooking, sanitation. Only the OWL participants get the OWL portion (Webelos activity pin helps) and only the BALOO participants get the BALOO portion (pack camping, appropriate activities based on age/rank, safety, pack campout planning)

                      Sandy OWL
                      Joyce Gaddis <joyceagaddis@...> wrote:
                      I am in the process of combining the new OWL and IOLS. What a
                      pain!!! You almost need two seperate staffs. It is like putting two
                      courses on at the same time and same place. Seems to me to be
                      another one of BSA's half-baked "Let's try this" schemes!!! I think
                      it is a great idea to combine OWL nad IOLS training to further
                      strengthen the bond between the two groups. Yes, I understand that
                      Webelos are still Cub Scouts and have different programs, but the
                      Webelos Outdoor program should be preparing the boys AND leaders for
                      Boy Scout outdoor programs.

                      Joyce Gaddis
                      SM Troop 23 Eddington
                      NE 1-224 Bear Patrol
                      NE 1-239 Troop Guide

                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, <brant@l...> wrote:


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                    • Fred Goodwin, CMA
                      ... If you read the BALOO syllabus, it says on page 9 (Planning Your BALOO Training / Overview) that this training should not be merged with any other
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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                        > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:38:21 -0800 (PST)
                        > From: <brant@...>
                        >
                        > 1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy
                        > between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list
                        > & schedule??

                        If you read the BALOO syllabus, it says on page 9 (Planning Your BALOO
                        Training / Overview) that this training should not be merged with any
                        other training.

                        > 2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that
                        > much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS.

                        Not sure how much the new OLSWL (Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos
                        Leaders) differs from the old WLOT (Webelos Leader Outdoor Training),
                        but the new syllabus specifically provides for joint sessions with
                        IOLS.

                        In fact, the two courses are very similar, but OLSWL provides a focus
                        on the outdoor Webelos activity badges that would not be appropriate
                        for IOLS.

                        Fred Goodwin, District Training Chairman
                        Keystone District, Alamo Area Council
                      • Sandra Martens
                        I have a combined syllabus and time line. Will email this evening. have a pinewood derby to run. Sandy OWL ... If you read the BALOO syllabus, it says on
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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                          I have a combined syllabus and time line. Will email this evening. have a pinewood derby to run.

                          Sandy OWL

                          "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...> wrote:
                          > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:38:21 -0800 (PST)
                          > From: <brant@...>
                          >
                          > 1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy
                          > between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list
                          > & schedule??

                          If you read the BALOO syllabus, it says on page 9 (Planning Your BALOO
                          Training / Overview) that this training should not be merged with any
                          other training.

                          > 2nd thought... It seems to me that the NEW OWL is (a) not that
                          > much different from the old and (b) hard to combine with IOLS.

                          Not sure how much the new OLSWL (Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos
                          Leaders) differs from the old WLOT (Webelos Leader Outdoor Training),
                          but the new syllabus specifically provides for joint sessions with
                          IOLS.

                          In fact, the two courses are very similar, but OLSWL provides a focus
                          on the outdoor Webelos activity badges that would not be appropriate
                          for IOLS.

                          Fred Goodwin, District Training Chairman
                          Keystone District, Alamo Area Council



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                        • R Fisher
                          Having been involved in our Council s first Joint Presentation of Outdoor Skills for Webelos Leaders and Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills for Boy Scout Leaders,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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                            Having been involved in our Council's first Joint Presentation of
                            Outdoor Skills for Webelos Leaders and Intro to Outdoor Leader Skills
                            for Boy Scout Leaders, I think I agree. Although the topics have the
                            same title, the focus is entirely different in most cases. OSWL is more
                            for training Leaders, IOLS is more for training Leaders to train boys.
                            The timing is all messed up, and one of the biggest drawbacks I see is a
                            Webelos leader who thinks he doesn't need to attend IOLS because s/he
                            already did it in Webelos.

                            If you do combine the two as suggested in the syllabus, I might think it
                            would be better to mirror (i.e. IOLS in the morning and OSWL in the
                            afternoon) to the extent practicable.

                            YiS

                            Roy Fisher

                            > [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joyce Gaddis
                            > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Combining OWL & BALOO
                            >
                            >
                            > I am in the process of combining the new OWL and IOLS. What a
                            > pain!!! You almost need two seperate staffs. It is like putting two
                            > courses on at the same time and same place. Seems to me to be
                            > another one of BSA's half-baked "Let's try this" schemes!!!
                          • Sandra Martens
                            this is how we do our joint BALOO/OWL. We do not do the Webelos Transition portion of the new syllabus- we do that at Roundtable so all Webelos leaders get
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 22, 2006
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                              this is how we do our joint BALOO/OWL. We do not do the Webelos Transition portion of the new syllabus- we do that at Roundtable so all Webelos leaders get it, not just those at OWL

                              BALOO / OWL TIMELINE
                              8 OCTOBER 2005

                              BALOO ACTIVITY TIME FRAME OWL ACTIVITY
                              Opening 09:00-09:20 Opening
                              09:20-10:00 Webelos Activities/H&S
                              Aims/Purposes, videos 09:20-0930
                              Planning/Program 9:30-11:00
                              10:00-10:10 Break
                              10:10-10:50 Round Robin ½
                              10:50-11:45 Round Robin ¾
                              Health and Safety 11:00-11:45
                              Lunch 11:45-12:15 Lunch
                              Activities (discuss games/hikes) 12:15-13:30 Activities
                              Blind Tent Relay 13:30-14:00 Blind Tent Relay
                              Fire Building 14:00-14:15 Fire Building
                              Round Robin J1/2 14:15-15:15 Round Robin J1/2
                              Round Robin J3/4 15:15-16:00 Round Robin J3/4
                              Flag Ceremony 16:00-16:20 Flag Ceremony
                              Campfire Preparation (dens) 16:20-17:00 Campfire Preparation (dens)
                              Dinner 17:00-18:00 Dinner
                              Campfire/Closing 18:00-19:00 Campfire/Closing



                              Round Robin 1/2 Round Robin 3/4 Round Robin J1/2 Round Robin J3/4
                              Naturalist Knots Cooking/Sanitation First Aid
                              Forester Geologist Campsite/Bedding Campfire Prep (class)



                              BALOO Activities OWL Activities (1 hr 15 min) (1 hr 15 min)

                              wiggle worm hunt scavenger hunt
                              hug a tree fire starters
                              nature critter bug cages
                              blind tent relay blind tent relay
                              break geodes


                              You'll notice we have activities during the afternoon period. I know this extends the time for BALOO, but it goes so quickly and the participants get to actually have fun and do some possible activities that can be done with their packs. We also have this time for Webelos activities instead of trying to teach and do an activity in the 20 minutes they allow. Outdoorsman is not covered separately. We coordinate so that it is covered completely in the other sessions. Participants learn knife safety and earn their "whittling chit" during campsite selection and bedding. This activity period also serves a second purpose. If sessions run late (due to questions and discussion) we have a buffer zone. The time spent on activities is just shortened.

                              Sandy OWL
                              "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...> wrote:
                              > Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 14:38:21 -0800 (PST)
                              > From: <brant@...>
                              >
                              > 1st thought - It seems to me that there is a lot of synergy
                              > between OWL & BALOO. Does anyone have a combined topics list
                              > & schedule??


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