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BSA Group Survey Regulations?

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  • hhhyman3
    Hello, I have just recently been aware of this group and joined today. So, before I ask my question, let me give you a bit of my Scouting qualifications. I
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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      Hello,

      I have just recently been aware of this group and joined today. So,
      before I ask my question, let me give you a bit of my Scouting
      qualifications. I have served as course director for 2 council level
      JLTCs, am serving on staff for my 3rd 21st century Wood Badge course,
      and have been awarded with the Silver Beaver in my council. In
      addition, I served for 5 years as the Associate Lodge Adviser of my
      council's local lodge of the Order of the Arrow.

      Recently, I decided to pursue a career change and am in my 1st year of
      a Ph.D. study in Management. I will soon begin an independent study
      of small group dynamics. I have already studied the works of Tuckman,
      etc. regarding the team development process. Based upon my
      observations with WB and JLTC, I would hypothesize that teams actually
      perceive themselves at a higher stage of development than the level at
      which they are at. This is something I would like to study empirically.

      Is anyone on this group aware of any BSA regulation which would
      proclude me from using the participants for the upcoming WB course in
      my council from being a survey base for my studies?

      Just as an FYI, my university (as do most) subjects any study
      conducted regarding persons to an internal review process in which the
      ethics of such a study are analyzed. I have to provide participants
      in the study with potential hazards of involvement with the study in
      their informed consent agreement. For this study, I do not see any
      hazards to being an individual participant. The only potential I see
      is that the actual shaping of questions which might cause participants
      to move beyond the actual level the teams should be at. At least in
      Management, this is called the Hawthorne effect, and there are avenues
      I can take with the faculty here to minimize such an effect in the
      questions asked.

      So, in conclusion, is anyone aware of such as study conducted before
      and also aware of any BSA regulations that might proclude such a study
      being conducted in a BSA environment?

      Thanks,
      Hugh Hyman
    • NeilLup@aol.com
      ... Hello Hugh, Interesting. Mark Stolowitz who is Chairman of the WB Task Force nationally is a PhD in Biochem and is reasonably familiar with studies. Dan
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 10, 2005
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        In a message dated 12/10/05 8:33:58 PM, hhyman1@... writes:


        > Hello,
        >
        > I have just recently been aware of this group and joined today.  So,
        > before I ask my question, let me give you a bit of my Scouting
        > qualifications.  I have served as course director for 2 council level
        > JLTCs, am serving on staff for my 3rd 21st century Wood Badge course,
        > and have been awarded with the Silver Beaver in my council.  In
        > addition, I served for 5 years as the Associate Lodge Adviser of my
        > council's local lodge of the Order of the Arrow.
        >
        > Recently, I decided to pursue a career change and am in my 1st year of
        > a Ph.D. study in Management.  I will soon begin an independent study
        > of small group dynamics.  I have already studied the works of Tuckman,
        > etc. regarding the team development process.  Based upon my
        > observations with WB and JLTC, I would hypothesize that teams actually
        > perceive themselves at a higher stage of development than the level at
        > which they are at.  This is something I would like to study empirically.
        >
        > Is anyone on this group aware of any BSA regulation which would
        > proclude me from using the participants for the upcoming WB course in
        > my council from being a survey base for my studies? 
        >
        > Just as an FYI, my university (as do most) subjects any study
        > conducted regarding persons to an internal review process in which the
        > ethics of such a study are analyzed.  I have to provide participants
        > in the study with potential hazards of involvement with the study in
        > their informed consent agreement.  For this study, I do not see any
        > hazards to being an individual participant.  The only potential I see
        > is that the actual shaping of questions which might cause participants
        > to move beyond the actual level the teams should be at.  At least in
        > Management, this is called the Hawthorne effect, and there are avenues
        > I can take with the faculty here to minimize such an effect in the
        > questions asked.
        >
        > So, in conclusion, is anyone aware of such as study conducted before
        > and also aware of any BSA regulations that might proclude such a study
        > being conducted in a BSA environment?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Hugh Hyman
        >

        Hello Hugh,

        Interesting.

        Mark Stolowitz who is Chairman of the WB Task Force nationally is a PhD in
        Biochem and is reasonably familiar with studies. Dan Zacarra who is chairman
        of the NJLIC Task Force is an expert in management training. I suspect that
        both of these people might be very interested in your work as would several of
        the rest of us on the National BS Training Task Force.

        I don't know of any regulations which would precllude what you want to do.
        There is the point of view which says that it is easier to obtain forgiveness
        than permission. :) Provided that you follow appropriate human subjects
        protocols ( I do know a bit about those; my company has an FWA and I am the
        human subjects officer for my company) I would think that you are OK. As I
        am sure you know, the protocols for children add several additional elements
        of strictness. Depending upon where you do it, I would probably get
        permission from the local council. Also, if you want to get more permission
        (rather than forgiveness) you might contact Joe Glasscock at the National
        Office who is the advisor to our National Training Tassk Force.

        I will say this. If you could do a study on both Boy Scouts and Girl
        Scouts and if you are right that there is a perception that groups think they are
        further developed than they think, it would be fascinating to see if girls
        and boys have similar skewed perceptions.

        Good stuff! I hope you share the results of your work.

        Best wishes,

        Neil Lupton
        Talking Lights LLC
        28 Constitution Road
        Boston, MA 02129
        617-242-0050
        FAX 617-242-0046
        neil@...
        www.talking-lights.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Wendell Brown
        ... I probably need to apologize to the the WB staffers on the list before you read this message. If you are offended easily, you probably don t need to read
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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          hhhyman3 wrote:
          > observations with WB and JLTC, I would hypothesize that teams actually
          > perceive themselves at a higher stage of development than the level at
          > which they are at..
          I probably need to apologize to the the WB staffers on the list before
          you read this message. If you are offended easily, you probably don't
          need to read the rest of this message. If you do read it, you need to
          keep in mind that it's intended as humor (with a bit of truth mixed
          in). If you get offended, I'm sorry in advance. :)

          Baaaaahahahahaahaha... Let me get this straight, you are going to try
          to get a wood badge staff to allow you show that they aren't as good as
          they think they are... :) Yeah, that's going to happen.

          Sorry, I just don't see this happening (in my council at least). While
          I (and I would imagine many WB participants) would agree that this is a
          valid supposition on your part, I would hazard the guess that the staff
          would disagree... no wait, that is what you are saying. ;)

          This just struck me as WAY too funny! Sorry!
        • Dave Loomis
          I just approved this message as a moderator on Scouter-T. Isn t this your list? Why am I moderating your messages? Have you changed something on your system
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 11, 2005
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            I just approved this message as a moderator on Scouter-T. Isn't this
            your list? Why am I moderating your messages? Have you changed
            something on your system so that the list no longer recognizes you as a
            member?

            All the best,

            Dave

            Wendell Brown wrote:
            > hhhyman3 wrote:
            >
            >>observations with WB and JLTC, I would hypothesize that teams actually
            >>perceive themselves at a higher stage of development than the level at
            >>which they are at..
            >
            > I probably need to apologize to the the WB staffers on the list before
            > you read this message.


            To reply, click on the address below.

            Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
            245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
          • Wendell Brown
            ... Errrrr... actually, I changed myself to moderated status (which I just changed back). I had sent a message to the group that was interned to go only to
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 12, 2005
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              Dave Loomis wrote:

              > I just approved this message as a moderator on Scouter-T. Isn't this
              >your list? Why am I moderating your messages? Have you changed
              >something on your system so that the list no longer recognizes you as a
              >member?
              >
              >

              Errrrr... actually, I changed myself to moderated status (which I just
              changed back). I had sent a message to the group that was interned to
              go only to one member. I stopped the send, but wanted to make
              absolutely sure that it didn't send, so I moderated myself. It turns
              out that the stop worked, but better safe than sorry. :)
            • Dave Loomis
              Wendell, Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that it be moved to Wood Badge-L? Dave To reply, click on the address below. Dave Loomis
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 13, 2005
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                Wendell,
                Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that it be moved
                to Wood Badge-L?

                Dave



                To reply, click on the address below.

                Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
              • Scouter Chuck
                Dave wrote... ... Actually, I m a bit surprised that it hasn t shown up there already. Although that would mean a few 200k+ Digests with the HTML and Mime
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 13, 2005
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                  Dave wrote...

                  > Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest
                  > that it be moved to Wood Badge-L?

                  Actually, I'm a bit surprised that it hasn't shown up there already.
                  Although that would mean a few 200k+ Digests with the HTML and Mime
                  problems. :(

                  YiS,

                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                  Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                  District Committee Member at Large
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                • Keith Tilley
                  Dave asked, Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that it be moved to Wood Badge-L? Dave, it s a small point, but an important one in light of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 13, 2005
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                    Dave asked, "Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that
                    it be moved to Wood Badge-L?"

                    Dave, it's a small point, but an important one in light of the current
                    threads - this is a group for trainers, and Wood Badge is training.

                    If we were exceeding the daily limit I might agree with you, but I
                    think this is the most lively and most unvarnished discussion I've
                    ever seen about this training course, and I'd like it to continue.

                    Keith Tilley
                  • Wendell Brown
                    ... We have (myself included) strayed a bit wide of the normal training discussion. And while WB is training and as such is certainly a valid topic on this
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 14, 2005
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                      Dave Loomis wrote:
                      > Wendell,
                      > Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that it be moved
                      > to Wood Badge-L?
                      >
                      We have (myself included) strayed a bit wide of the normal training
                      discussion. And while WB is training and as such is certainly a valid
                      topic on this list, we probably do need to focus a bit more closely on
                      the training aspect and step away from the policy issues.

                      As someone said, we had over 20 messages in the last couple of days on
                      this. I guess we are going to start running people off if we just keep
                      beating this horse. (Yes, that was a joke - I don't think there are
                      many on this list are that easy to run away). ;)

                      In other words, no - I'm not going to terminate the conversation but I
                      am going to ask that we try to be a bit more circumspect in our comments.

                      Oh, and I didn't even know there was a Wood Badge-L...... either that or
                      I blocked it from my mind. ;)
                    • Dave Loomis
                      That list sits at WDBADGE-L@listserv.american.edu, but I don t recall if I sent a Subscribe message to the listserver or if there was a URL to subscribe. I
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 14, 2005
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                        That list sits at WDBADGE-L@..., but I don't recall
                        if I sent a Subscribe message to the listserver or if there was a URL to
                        subscribe.

                        I suppose part of my question, which I really thought I had sent
                        directly to you, as opposed to the list in general, is how much of the
                        mystery of Wood Badge are we discussing on a list that is not made up of
                        Wood Badgers, not that there is a membership challenge and reply
                        required to join the WB List.

                        Dave

                        Wendell Brown wrote:
                        > Dave Loomis wrote:
                        >
                        >>Wendell,
                        >> Has this gone on long enough on Scouter-T to suggest that it be moved
                        >>to Wood Badge-L?
                        >>
                        >
                        > We have (myself included) strayed a bit wide of the normal training
                        > discussion. And while WB is training and as such is certainly a valid
                        > topic on this list, we probably do need to focus a bit more closely on
                        > the training aspect and step away from the policy issues.
                        >
                        > As someone said, we had over 20 messages in the last couple of days on
                        > this. I guess we are going to start running people off if we just keep
                        > beating this horse. (Yes, that was a joke - I don't think there are
                        > many on this list are that easy to run away). ;)
                        >
                        > In other words, no - I'm not going to terminate the conversation but I
                        > am going to ask that we try to be a bit more circumspect in our comments.
                        >
                        > Oh, and I didn't even know there was a Wood Badge-L...... either that or
                        > I blocked it from my mind. ;)
                        >
                        >

                        To reply, click on the address below.

                        Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                        245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                        Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                      • Wendell Brown
                        Dave Loomis wrote ... That s a good question Dave. I ll try to keep my comments non-specific. So far, I don t think there is much that has been said here
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 15, 2005
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                          Dave Loomis wrote

                          > how much of the mystery of Wood Badge are we discussing on a
                          > list that is not made up of Wood Badgers

                          That's a good question Dave. I'll try to keep my comments
                          non-specific. So far, I don't think there is much that has been said
                          here about the "mystery" that the vast majority of trainers haven't
                          already heard. But we do need to keep that in mind.

                          Thanks for the reminder!
                        • Scouter Chuck
                          Wendell wrote... ... I m not sure how much of the mystery is left, anymore. It appears from the discussion that a lot of the mystery was part of the
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 15, 2005
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                            Wendell wrote...

                            > That's a good question Dave. I'll try to keep my comments
                            > non-specific. So far, I don't think there is much that has been said
                            > here about the "mystery" that the vast majority of trainers haven't
                            > already heard. But we do need to keep that in mind.

                            I'm not sure how much of the "mystery" is left, anymore.
                            It appears from the discussion that a lot of the "mystery" was
                            part of the percieved problem.

                            YiS,

                            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                            District Committee Member at Large
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                            -- Stephen R. Covey
                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                          • Keith Tilley
                            In response to Scouter Chuck, I think there s a difference between mystery and secrecy. Mystery is fun, trying to keep some things quiet so the participants
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 15, 2005
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                              In response to Scouter Chuck, I think there's a difference between mystery
                              and secrecy. Mystery is fun, trying to keep some things quiet so the
                              participants have a more enjoyable and more effective experience. Secrecy,
                              where things like planning and staffing are done without proper oversight,
                              is where we get into trouble.



                              Keith Tilley



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • NeilLup@aol.com
                              ... I believe there really is not supposed to be any mystery connected with 21st Century Wood Badge. The schedule and objectives are published in the
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 15, 2005
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                                >
                                >
                                > I'm not sure how much of the "mystery" is left, anymore. 
                                > It appears from the discussion that a lot of the "mystery" was
                                > part of the percieved problem.
                                >
                                >
                                I believe there really is not supposed to be any "mystery" connected with
                                21st Century Wood Badge. The schedule and objectives are published in the
                                Gilwell Gazette and there are many councils who have published all of their issues
                                of the Gilwell Gazette on-line for anyone to read. While there are probably
                                some sessions which might be somewhat "spoiled" by foreknowledge, they
                                really aren't a mystery. For example, if one knew the questions for the Wood
                                Badge Game show in advance, then it might be less fun.

                                This is a total contrast from Leadership Develop Wood Badge which was the
                                previous generation. There, limited information was a specific management
                                technique and information, schedules, etc. were tightly controlled and
                                parcelled out in limited quantities. There really was "mystery" there and "I've
                                got a secret" elements. If there are still councils in which there is
                                "mystery", then I suspect that they haven't gotten the full message of 21st Century
                                Wood Badge. But from several of the posts on this topic, that seems to
                                be pretty clear.

                                Best wishes,

                                Neil Lupton


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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