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Re: [Scouter_T] NLE bridges

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  • Larry D. Ohs
    Elaine Boyd asked: Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials? ... If you don t use them, why? I have used the bridges a few times,
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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      Elaine Boyd asked:
      Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials? ... If you don't use them, why?

      I have used the bridges a few times, but most of the time I have not used them. The approach seems to me to be a bit sophomoric. I understand that people learn better by using several approaches. However, I feel that having them build the bridge while explaining the analogy of bases, structure, support, etc. that BSA provides is more appropriate for a Cub Scout-aged group, not adults. When I don't build the bridges, I still use the analogy and explain the concept though.

      Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience for which they are intended.

      Larry Ohs
      Salt Valley District Training Committee
      2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
      Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
      "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • RedhedMary@aol.com
      I usually use the bridges during NLE. However, sometimes I ve not had access to them and have done just fine without them. I did an NLE last night with a
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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        I usually use the bridges during NLE. However, sometimes I've not had
        access to them and have done just fine without them. I did an NLE last night with
        a group of Boy Scout leaders, and opted out of the bridges as we had
        somewhat of a time constraint. (And it's the first time I've come in at 90 minutes
        as the syllabus says it should be...)

        YiS,


        Mary Cooper, C-39-02
        Bobwhites "Contributori Fieri al Ciclo Alimentare Delle Nature"
        (Proud contributors to nature's food chain)



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Frank Maynard
        ... Yes, we use them, cause the syllabus says to, but I agree that it takes time out of the program while people change their train of thought and fumble
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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          On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Elaine D. Boyd wrote:

          > Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials?

          Yes, we use them, 'cause the syllabus says to, but I agree that it takes
          time out of the program while people change their train of thought and
          fumble around getting the little cardboard pieces to fit.

          Jamie, I agree on the poem, and now that I'm the one that has to read it,
          try to get through it all in one piece. But the one that I use to close
          Cub leader specific is the one that starts "I took a piece of plastic
          clay, and idly fashioned it one day...". Try getting through that one.

          --
          YiS,
          Frank Maynard, NF8M
          CM, Pack 54; MC, Troop 407; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
          ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
          Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council (10 Year Quality District)
          Novi, Michigan
        • Elaine D. Boyd
          Frank, Could you share this poem? Please? ~Elaine Boyd Scouter in NH ... From: Frank Maynard To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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            Frank,

            Could you share this poem? Please?

            ~Elaine Boyd
            Scouter in NH

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Frank Maynard
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:27 PM
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] NLE bridges

            Jamie, I agree on the poem, and now that I'm the one that has to read it,
            try to get through it all in one piece. But the one that I use to close
            Cub leader specific is the one that starts "I took a piece of plastic
            clay, and idly fashioned it one day...". Try getting through that one.

            --
            YiS,
            Frank Maynard, NF8M
            CM, Pack 54; MC, Troop 407; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
            ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
            Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council (10 Year Quality District)
            Novi, Michigan

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Frank Maynard
            ... Sure. This is from a posting by Judy Yeager, a regular on this list, but I saw it posted on the cub-scout-talk mailing list: (Thanks again Judy!) Early on
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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              On Fri, 4 Nov 2005, Elaine D. Boyd wrote:

              > Could you share this poem? Please?

              Sure. This is from a posting by Judy Yeager, a regular on this list, but
              I saw it posted on the cub-scout-talk mailing list: (Thanks again Judy!)


              Early on in my Scouting "career," I came across a poem that has shored me up
              many times and kept my head on straight about what this program is all
              about. If I may, I would like to share it with you. Please note the
              opening line of the last stanza!

              A Scouter's Golden Opportunity

              I took a piece of plastic clay
              And idly fashioned it one day.
              And as I pressed it, still
              It bent and yielded to my will.

              I came again when day was past
              That bit of clay was hard at last;
              My early impress still it bore
              And I could change its form no more.

              You take a piece of living clay
              And gently form it day by day;
              Molding with your power and art
              A young boy's soft and yielding heart.

              You come again when days are gone,
              It is a man you look upon;
              Your early impress still he bore,
              And you could change him never more.

              You are dealing with a boy
              That must be guided unaware;
              Must be shown, but oh so gently,
              How to live both true and square.

              Pins and badges aren't our aim,
              Character building is our goal;
              Do not lose your courage now,
              For you are piloting a soul.

              Judy Yeager
              NT District Training Chair, HOAC

              --
              YiS,
              Frank Maynard, NF8M
              CM, Pack 54; MC, Troop 407; District Cub Training Chair & Roundtable Staff
              ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
              Mighty Ottawa District, Clinton Valley Council (10 Year Quality District)
              Novi, Michigan
            • Dawn Walters
              I just finished over three years as a District Training Chair and basically used up every bridge that the council had available including all of the ones that
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                I just finished over three years as a District Training Chair and basically used up every bridge that the council had available including all of the ones that the other districts were not using. Scouting is about passing on those values we believe important wrapped up in fun, not just for the youth but the adults also. The bridges are no more sophmoric than having the adults get up and join in singing repeatedly faster rounds of "I'm Alive, Awake, Alert, Enthusiastic" which I also did quite regularly. We shouldn't take our adult status so seriously that we forget the fun. Besides, fun has been shown to improve learning and retention which are goals of teaching.

                Dawn Walters
                Pioneer District
                Capitol Area Council


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              • J L D
                Larry - I m a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100 company. We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  Larry - I'm a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100
                  company.
                  We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                  existing staff. Not only is it refreshing but it promotes team-building and
                  friendly competitiveness, gets people up and moving and makes the class
                  memorable. Games help us reinforce the points we are trying to teach in a
                  fun way. Our staff loves to come to training - they never know what to
                  expect.
                  Also for male learners - and this is not a sexist remark but is documented
                  in *The Minds of Boys* by Michael Gurian,* *(which I was pleased to see
                  featured in the recent issue of Scouting) - male learners learn better and
                  faster and retain more information if movement is involved rather than the
                  traditional stand-up/lecture classes. Personally, I dislike teaching classes
                  where I'm just a "talking head".
                  So relax and enjoy yourself! Be a kid again! Isn't it supposed to be FUN?
                  YIS,
                  Jeanne
                  SM T249 Budd Lake NJ

                  On 11/4/05, Larry D. Ohs <lohs@...> wrote:
                  Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and
                  games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest
                  common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business
                  trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they
                  should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience
                  for which they are intended.

                  Larry Ohs
                  Salt Valley District Training Committee
                  2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
                  Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
                  "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                • Connie Knie
                  I could not agree more. I am going through all kinds of resources now and there are ideas like play games and sing songs but I feel that my CM class
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                    I could not agree more. I am going through all kinds of resources now and there are ideas like play games and sing songs but I feel that my CM class participants tomorrow do not want to do that. I know the CM position especially needs to be more fun and care free but it does not necessarily have a place in training.........

                    "Larry D. Ohs" <lohs@...> wrote: Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience for which they are intended.

                    Larry Ohs
                    Salt Valley District Training Committee
                    2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
                    Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
                    "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                    connie

                    SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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                  • brant@lippincott.us
                    Elaine Boyd asked: Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials? ... If you don t use them, why? No, we stopped using them. We feel
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                      Elaine Boyd asked:
                      Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials? ... If you don't use them, why?

                      No, we stopped using them. We feel that it takes a little too much time and does not add any real value to the presentation. The time is already a little tight. Also, Most of the time, the tables would build them ahead rather than wen "told."

                      Larry Ohs commented:
                      Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)?

                      Larry, I take a little bit of offense at your comment. CUB scouting is NOT the "lowest common denominator". Now, it is the most "common" form of leaders. In fact in a room of brand new NLE attendees, 80-90 percent are new CUB leaders. As a BOY scout leader, think about where all your boys come from. MOST come from Cub Scouting. So it stands to reason that the better trained leaders you have as CUB leaders, the more likely it is for the boys to stay in scouting and eventually become BOY scouts.

                      So, that's why we might sing a silly song or do a cheer or something a little FUN. It's boring to sit there for 90 minutes and just listen. Now I'm not advocating running NLE like a pack meeting, but it could be a bit more fun. If you want a bit of insight into things, perhaps you should attend the Trainer Development Conference. The biggest thing I took from that is that different adults have different learning styles. Some learn best by reading, some by hearing and some by seeing. MOST do better when taking notes.

                      For the Boys,
                      Brant



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Larry D. Ohs
                      Re: fun at trainings. Thanks for your comments. Yes, we should have fun at training. I ve been known to come to training in a safari jacket just to tell the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                        Re: fun at trainings.

                        Thanks for your comments. Yes, we should have fun at training. I've been known to come to training in a safari jacket just to tell the joke about shooting a tiger in my pajamas (how he got in pajamas I'll never know.....). I do rope tricks (take three pieces of rope colored to represent the three levels of Scouting, tie them together with square knots and turn them into one continuous piece of colored rope--ties NLE together quite well!!) I've done group action songs. It takes me a bit to break out of my introverted shell and cut loose, but I do it for Scout trainings. [Judges frown on it in court when I'm working.] Somehow, the bridge doesn't do it for me. I'll have to work on it.

                        Jeanne: we need to get you at our boring continuing legal education meetings where fellow lawyers drone on for hours about some topic we don't really have an interest in but need the credit hours. Those lawyer/presenters that break out of that mould are few but enjoyed by most.

                        Larry Ohs
                        Salt Valley District Training Committee
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: J L D
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:43 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] NLE bridges


                        Larry - I'm a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100
                        company.
                        We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                        existing staff. Not only is it refreshing but it promotes team-building and
                        friendly competitiveness, gets people up and moving and makes the class
                        memorable. Games help us reinforce the points we are trying to teach in a
                        fun way. Our staff loves to come to training - they never know what to
                        expect.... So relax and enjoy yourself! Be a kid again! Isn't it supposed to be FUN?
                        YIS,
                        Jeanne


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Connie Knie
                        Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn t mind games if they had
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                          Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult geared games.........any ideas????

                          J L D <512jellybeans@...> wrote:Larry - I'm a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100
                          company.
                          We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                          existing staff. Not only is it refreshing but it promotes team-building and
                          friendly competitiveness, gets people up and moving and makes the class
                          memorable. Games help us reinforce the points we are trying to teach in a
                          fun way. Our staff loves to come to training - they never know what to
                          expect.
                          Also for male learners - and this is not a sexist remark but is documented
                          in *The Minds of Boys* by Michael Gurian,* *(which I was pleased to see
                          featured in the recent issue of Scouting) - male learners learn better and
                          faster and retain more information if movement is involved rather than the
                          traditional stand-up/lecture classes. Personally, I dislike teaching classes
                          where I'm just a "talking head".
                          So relax and enjoy yourself! Be a kid again! Isn't it supposed to be FUN?
                          YIS,
                          Jeanne
                          SM T249 Budd Lake NJ

                          On 11/4/05, Larry D. Ohs wrote:
                          Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and
                          games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest
                          common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business
                          trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they
                          should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience
                          for which they are intended.

                          Larry Ohs
                          Salt Valley District Training Committee
                          2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
                          Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
                          "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          connie

                          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
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                        • Connie Knie
                          Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn t mind games if they had
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                            Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult geared games.........any ideas????

                            J L D <512jellybeans@...> wrote:Larry - I'm a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100
                            company.
                            We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                            existing staff. Not only is it refreshing but it promotes team-building and
                            friendly competitiveness, gets people up and moving and makes the class
                            memorable. Games help us reinforce the points we are trying to teach in a
                            fun way. Our staff loves to come to training - they never know what to
                            expect.
                            Also for male learners - and this is not a sexist remark but is documented
                            in *The Minds of Boys* by Michael Gurian,* *(which I was pleased to see
                            featured in the recent issue of Scouting) - male learners learn better and
                            faster and retain more information if movement is involved rather than the
                            traditional stand-up/lecture classes. Personally, I dislike teaching classes
                            where I'm just a "talking head".
                            So relax and enjoy yourself! Be a kid again! Isn't it supposed to be FUN?
                            YIS,
                            Jeanne
                            SM T249 Budd Lake NJ

                            On 11/4/05, Larry D. Ohs wrote:
                            Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and
                            games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest
                            common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business
                            trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they
                            should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience
                            for which they are intended.

                            Larry Ohs
                            Salt Valley District Training Committee
                            2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
                            Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
                            "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                            Training
                            program development
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                            connie

                            SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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                          • brant@lippincott.us
                            I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy. Not like those boring
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                              I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy. Not like those boring meetings we sit in at work. Boring meetings are the fastest way to drop your attenndence. The kids don't want to sit through another hour of school!!

                              For the Boys,
                              Brant


                              Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                              I could not agree more. I am going through all kinds of resources now and there are ideas like play games and sing songs but I feel that my CM class participants tomorrow do not want to do that.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Connie Knie
                              Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn t mind games if they had
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
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                                Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult geared games.........any ideas????

                                J L D <512jellybeans@...> wrote:Larry - I'm a corporate trainer in a conservative, white-collar, Fortune 100
                                company.
                                We use games frequently as part of teaching skillls to new hires and
                                existing staff. Not only is it refreshing but it promotes team-building and
                                friendly competitiveness, gets people up and moving and makes the class
                                memorable. Games help us reinforce the points we are trying to teach in a
                                fun way. Our staff loves to come to training - they never know what to
                                expect.
                                Also for male learners - and this is not a sexist remark but is documented
                                in *The Minds of Boys* by Michael Gurian,* *(which I was pleased to see
                                featured in the recent issue of Scouting) - male learners learn better and
                                faster and retain more information if movement is involved rather than the
                                traditional stand-up/lecture classes. Personally, I dislike teaching classes
                                where I'm just a "talking head".
                                So relax and enjoy yourself! Be a kid again! Isn't it supposed to be FUN?
                                YIS,
                                Jeanne
                                SM T249 Budd Lake NJ

                                On 11/4/05, Larry D. Ohs wrote:
                                Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and
                                games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest
                                common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business
                                trainings, our trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they
                                should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the adult audience
                                for which they are intended.

                                Larry Ohs
                                Salt Valley District Training Committee
                                2005 Jamboree Boating Staff
                                Powder Horn, HOAC 2002
                                "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                connie

                                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • NeilLup@aol.com
                                ... Hello, What I write now may be flameworthy words, but I seriously wonder whether an adult leader who doesn t like games and whom games make uncomfortable
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 11/4/05 4:50:34 PM, cknie23100@... writes:


                                  > I am looking for are exercises that make the class wake up a bit and make
                                  > an impression but not make the participants that don't like that sort of thing
                                  > uncomfortable. Adult geared games.........any ideas????
                                  >

                                  Hello,

                                  What I write now may be flameworthy words, but I seriously wonder whether
                                  an adult leader who doesn't like games and whom games make uncomfortable is
                                  someone who can be a successful Scout leader. We then start doing things by
                                  grim sense of duty rather than the jolly game which BP envisioned. And if we
                                  don't have youth having fun and learning skills, etc. as a part of having
                                  fun, I seriously wonder if it is Scouting.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Neil Lupton


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Connie Knie
                                  Ok we can agree to disagree because I don t feel that a song or a game will teach someone how to have fun..........just because your training did not
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Ok we can agree to disagree because I don't feel that a song or a game will "teach" someone how to have fun..........just because your training did not involve a song with hand motions or a game with balloons does not mean your pack meeting will be boring.

                                    This is a great discussion on the even of UoS where I am teaching two classes.........thanks guys.......and I am NOT being sarcastic (gosh it is hard to make sure folks know you are being sincere in emails and I just wanted you all to know I am)

                                    brant@... wrote:
                                    I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy. Not like those boring meetings we sit in at work. Boring meetings are the fastest way to drop your attenndence. The kids don't want to sit through another hour of school!!

                                    For the Boys,
                                    Brant


                                    Connie Knie wrote:
                                    I could not agree more. I am going through all kinds of resources now and there are ideas like play games and sing songs but I feel that my CM class participants tomorrow do not want to do that.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                                    connie

                                    SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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                                  • Larry D. Ohs
                                    Brant: I don t mean to offend anyone. I m a strong believer in training and have conducted district and council trainings for seven of the last nine years. I
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Brant: I don't mean to offend anyone. I'm a strong believer in training and have conducted district and council trainings for seven of the last nine years. I have taken TDC and understand we need to present information in different forms for different kinds of people. I have gone to five other Councils to take Scout training that was not being offered by my small home Council, then brought some of those courses back to do here. Training Cub Scout leaders to let go is part of the process and I do that. I just think that attitude is exhibited unnecessarily in some of the training for leaders of older Scouts. A good demonstration of what a leader could do with 8- to 10-year old boys is not going to be effective with 15- to 18-year youths. Leader Specific training is a good idea. You're right, most NLE trainees are Cub Scout leaders and it seems to me to be written for that level. I guess I wish there was version for leaders of older Scouts to use when the trainees aren't Cub Scout leaders. Our NLE classes are small so it's possible we have no CS leaders in a particular session.

                                      Anyway, I guess I livened-up what is usually a quiet Friday afternoon on the list. Everyone have a good weekend. I'm off to have fun doing a troop campout.

                                      Larry Ohs
                                      Salt Valley District Training Committee
                                      Troop 12, Assistant Scoutmaster

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: brant@...
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 3:36 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] NLE bridges


                                      We feel it does not add any real value to the presentation. *** The time is already a little tight. Also, Most of the time, the tables would build them ahead rather than wen "told."

                                      Larry Ohs commented:
                                      Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs, videos and games coming out of the national office often are on the level of the lowest common denominator of Scouting (Cub Scouting)?

                                      Larry, I take a little bit of offense at your comment. CUB scouting is NOT the "lowest common denominator". Now, it is the most "common" form of leaders. In fact in a room of brand new NLE attendees, 80-90 percent are new CUB leaders. As a BOY scout leader, think about where all your boys come from. MOST come from Cub Scouting. So it stands to reason that the better trained leaders you have as CUB leaders, the more likely it is for the boys to stay in scouting and eventually become BOY scouts.

                                      So, that's why we might sing a silly song or do a cheer or something a little FUN. It's boring to sit there for 90 minutes and just listen. Now I'm not advocating running NLE like a pack meeting, but it could be a bit more fun. If you want a bit of insight into things, perhaps you should attend the Trainer Development Conference. The biggest thing I took from that is that different adults have different learning styles. Some learn best by reading, some by hearing and some by seeing. MOST do better when taking notes.

                                      For the Boys,
                                      Brant




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Sean Scott
                                      Lots of good discussion here. Brant wrote I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun,
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Lots of good discussion here.

                                        Brant wrote
                                        I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to
                                        have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy.

                                        Connie wrote:
                                        So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games
                                        if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this
                                        is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that
                                        make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the
                                        participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult
                                        geared games.........any ideas????


                                        Let me preface what I say with the expectation of a new leader, from
                                        my own experience. Most don't want to be there, are expecting a
                                        boring session, and are there out of obligation. Their expectations
                                        are low. Conducting a dull, lecture heavy session would not surprise
                                        anyone. I think that we can all agree that most of our training
                                        should be "better" than that, that we can make it enjoyable and fun.
                                        (I might argue that something like YPT deserves a more serious
                                        approach, so there is always an exception...)

                                        So, what is an appropriate game or level of fun for a training?

                                        I would suggest that a game can serve more than one purpose and have
                                        more than one value at training. For example, an icebreaker such as
                                        finding people that have been to Alaska, are carrying a pocketknife,
                                        or were Scouts as youth helps participants to meet one another and
                                        loosen the mood. The human knot game can teach cooperation.

                                        One skit we used to do in training was "The New Cubmaster." One
                                        staffer would enter wearing a Smokey and tell another staffer,
                                        sitting at a desk, "I have my hat, I've got my smile, and I'm ready
                                        to be a leader!" The second staffer would say, "Oh, you need a leader
                                        book. Here." It would bounce between them:
                                        "OK, I've got my hat and my smile and my leader book, I'm ready to be
                                        a leader."
                                        "Oh, you should have the Guide to Safe Scouting, too."
                                        ...and so on, until the new leader was holding a stack of 15-20
                                        books, trying to remember them all.

                                        Perhaps the thing we forget about these games and songs we sing is
                                        the *other*, less obvious purpose they have. They set an example.
                                        They demonstrate that it's OK for leaders to be silly, have fun, play
                                        games, cut loose, and be kids again.

                                        I think back to my first training. It was awful. I didn't want to go
                                        to any more. Then someone said I needed Safe Swim defense, and I
                                        reluctantly went to Roundtable. The guy that did it came out in swim
                                        trunks, with a surfboard and SCUBA mask and snorkel and fins. It was
                                        funny to see an adult be goofy, and instead of having the, "This is
                                        going to be boring but I have to be here" attitude I paid attention.
                                        It was fun. I was engaged. Most importantly, I learned.

                                        Later I went to camp school, and the course director did "Ya Momma
                                        Dear." I'd seen the words and directions, but never "got it" until I
                                        saw it. How many other action songs look stupid on paper, but are fun
                                        to sing and participate in when you actually do them? And you can't
                                        convince me that just because a boy is a Boy Scout that Pink Pajamas
                                        or the Quartermaster's Store suddenly aren't fun to sing.

                                        So if, in a training, we tell people that they can sing songs and do
                                        skits and play games, and don't give them context, are we being good
                                        trainers? Yes, we can provide words and music to songs and
                                        instructions to games, but if the participants can't read music or
                                        don't understand the rules, will they take our advice, or bypass it
                                        and stick with what they're comfortable with? Why would they risk
                                        looking bad in front of someone who might point out they're doing it
                                        wrong?

                                        So a song may not apply to the specific thing being taught, like "Who
                                        pays for Scouting," but it demonstrates things that leaders can do to
                                        liven their meetings. A game may not illustrate a concept, but it
                                        does show people that the game is fun and easy enough for their boys
                                        to play. It offers people a chance to practice the skill in a safe
                                        environment before taking it back to their unit. Most of all, it
                                        shows leaders that you can be an adult and still act like a kid.

                                        YiS,
                                        Sean
                                      • Connie Knie
                                        Once again Sean you are a font of wisdom and have given me more to think on. As I was driving back from dropping my son off to go camping, I will be joining
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Once again Sean you are a font of wisdom and have given me more to think on. As I was driving back from dropping my son off to go camping, I will be joining him after UoS tomorrow, I was thinking of ways to liven up the CM training and run ons came to mind. I could pass them out and just tell participants to randomly come up if they see a moment. Being CMs hopefully they will be up to the challenge..........

                                          I was thinking of the Human knot as well.......

                                          My concern is making sure they get the questions answered they came for as well........

                                          I got the equiment together and will be using the PP that Sean and (one other person whose name escapes me) sent. I have not done this before and was anxious but have decided that the presentation is really just a way to organize my thoughts and give us a jumping off point for discussions.........


                                          Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                                          Lots of good discussion here.

                                          Brant wrote
                                          I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to
                                          have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy.

                                          Connie wrote:
                                          So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games
                                          if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this
                                          is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that
                                          make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the
                                          participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult
                                          geared games.........any ideas????


                                          Let me preface what I say with the expectation of a new leader, from
                                          my own experience. Most don't want to be there, are expecting a
                                          boring session, and are there out of obligation. Their expectations
                                          are low. Conducting a dull, lecture heavy session would not surprise
                                          anyone. I think that we can all agree that most of our training
                                          should be "better" than that, that we can make it enjoyable and fun.
                                          (I might argue that something like YPT deserves a more serious
                                          approach, so there is always an exception...)

                                          So, what is an appropriate game or level of fun for a training?

                                          I would suggest that a game can serve more than one purpose and have
                                          more than one value at training. For example, an icebreaker such as
                                          finding people that have been to Alaska, are carrying a pocketknife,
                                          or were Scouts as youth helps participants to meet one another and
                                          loosen the mood. The human knot game can teach cooperation.

                                          One skit we used to do in training was "The New Cubmaster." One
                                          staffer would enter wearing a Smokey and tell another staffer,
                                          sitting at a desk, "I have my hat, I've got my smile, and I'm ready
                                          to be a leader!" The second staffer would say, "Oh, you need a leader
                                          book. Here." It would bounce between them:
                                          "OK, I've got my hat and my smile and my leader book, I'm ready to be
                                          a leader."
                                          "Oh, you should have the Guide to Safe Scouting, too."
                                          ...and so on, until the new leader was holding a stack of 15-20
                                          books, trying to remember them all.

                                          Perhaps the thing we forget about these games and songs we sing is
                                          the *other*, less obvious purpose they have. They set an example.
                                          They demonstrate that it's OK for leaders to be silly, have fun, play
                                          games, cut loose, and be kids again.

                                          I think back to my first training. It was awful. I didn't want to go
                                          to any more. Then someone said I needed Safe Swim defense, and I
                                          reluctantly went to Roundtable. The guy that did it came out in swim
                                          trunks, with a surfboard and SCUBA mask and snorkel and fins. It was
                                          funny to see an adult be goofy, and instead of having the, "This is
                                          going to be boring but I have to be here" attitude I paid attention.
                                          It was fun. I was engaged. Most importantly, I learned.

                                          Later I went to camp school, and the course director did "Ya Momma
                                          Dear." I'd seen the words and directions, but never "got it" until I
                                          saw it. How many other action songs look stupid on paper, but are fun
                                          to sing and participate in when you actually do them? And you can't
                                          convince me that just because a boy is a Boy Scout that Pink Pajamas
                                          or the Quartermaster's Store suddenly aren't fun to sing.

                                          So if, in a training, we tell people that they can sing songs and do
                                          skits and play games, and don't give them context, are we being good
                                          trainers? Yes, we can provide words and music to songs and
                                          instructions to games, but if the participants can't read music or
                                          don't understand the rules, will they take our advice, or bypass it
                                          and stick with what they're comfortable with? Why would they risk
                                          looking bad in front of someone who might point out they're doing it
                                          wrong?

                                          So a song may not apply to the specific thing being taught, like "Who
                                          pays for Scouting," but it demonstrates things that leaders can do to
                                          liven their meetings. A game may not illustrate a concept, but it
                                          does show people that the game is fun and easy enough for their boys
                                          to play. It offers people a chance to practice the skill in a safe
                                          environment before taking it back to their unit. Most of all, it
                                          shows leaders that you can be an adult and still act like a kid.

                                          YiS,
                                          Sean



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                                          connie

                                          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • R Fisher
                                          ... Greetings Larry (and others) If you think about it, under the take it once and you re done concept for NLE, Cub Scouting is exactly the group its
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > Is it just me, or do others think that the training programs,
                                            > videos and games coming out of the national office often are
                                            > on the level of the lowest common denominator of Scouting
                                            > (Cub Scouting)? When I attend business trainings, our
                                            > trainers don't have us play games to learn (maybe they
                                            > should?). I think the trainings should be geared towards the
                                            > adult audience for which they are intended.

                                            Greetings Larry (and others)

                                            If you think about it, under the "take it once and you're done" concept
                                            for NLE, Cub Scouting is exactly the group its targeted to. The other
                                            program leaders should have already received it when they were in Cub
                                            Scouting. Of course you and I know that not all leaders start as Cub
                                            leaders. So you kind of have to make the NLE program fit the audience.
                                            BTW, I have been to business training sessions where the facilitators
                                            did have us playing games. So I guess it depends.

                                            I have done NLE in conjunction with the complete training program for
                                            Venturing leaders (brand new to BSA) but since some of the material is
                                            aimed at Cub Scouts and a lot of it is covered in much more detail in
                                            the Venturing Leader Specific Training I've whittled the NLE section
                                            down to about 45 minutes. I really don't think that anything was
                                            omitted or glossed over, it was covered later. I do show all the videos
                                            and we do have some time for brief discussion (where I usually end up
                                            putting the question in the Parking Lot for later).

                                            But we don't build the bridge.

                                            YiS

                                            Roy Fisher
                                          • Sandra Martens
                                            We used them the first couple times then stopped. First, it took too long. 90 minutes is cutting it very tight already, and I d rather answer questions than
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 4, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              We used them the first couple times then stopped. First, it took too long. 90 minutes is cutting it very tight already, and I'd rather answer questions than put together a bridge.

                                              Secondly, if they have the parts ahead of time they put the whole thing together as they watch the videos and the idea of the bridge is completely gone.

                                              Sandy OWL

                                              ne D. Boyd" <edboyd@...> wrote:
                                              Does anyone use the bridges supplied as part of New Leader Essentials? I am the new Cub Scout Training Chair for my district. The previous chair said that she used the bridges the first time they did NLE and have not used them since. I am curious as to what others do. If you don't use them, why?

                                              Thanks for helping out a newbie!

                                              Yours in Scouting,

                                              ~Elaine Boyd
                                              Scouter in NH


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Drama/Dee
                                              Connie, There is a problem-solving game we did at RT this past Thursday that may be what you are looking for. Take as many legal size pieces of paper as
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 5, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Connie,

                                                There is a "problem-solving" game we did at RT this past Thursday that may
                                                be what you are looking for.

                                                Take as many legal size pieces of paper as there are participants plus 1.
                                                Set them on the floor in a straight line. Have participants line up, facing
                                                the middle, on the papers so 1 paper is in the middle with no one on it. Now
                                                they have to move from one side of the line to the other kind of like in
                                                checkers (only they don't REALLY jump over each other! LOL). They can walk
                                                round each other but only to get to another piece of paper. Or straight
                                                ahead to the next available paper. They can not stand back and look at each
                                                other to figure it out.

                                                There is a certain trick to doing this but we didn't figure it out. We did
                                                find out more about each other by the ways in which we tried to solve the
                                                game.

                                                This is not a "silly-get-on-the-floor-and-get-dirty" kind of game. You could
                                                use it for a den or pack meeting, if you wished. We did discuss the idea
                                                that if we had given this to a den of boys, they would probably have it
                                                figured out in no time! LOL!

                                                Mrs. Dee
                                                Pack 418

                                                -------Original Message-------

                                                From: Connie Knie
                                                Date: 11/04/05 16:58:49
                                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] NLE bridges

                                                Ok I already gave my opinion on games but you have given me food for thought. So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult geared games.........any ideas????

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Chris
                                                I haven t used the bridges since the first year the package came out. Nearly everyone has them put together in the first 5 minutes, but aren t paying attention
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 6, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I haven't used the bridges since the first year the package came out.
                                                  Nearly everyone has them put together in the first 5 minutes, but
                                                  aren't paying attention to the presentation. I use the slides in the
                                                  ppt to show the progression of the bridge as a concept. I too love
                                                  the poem at the end.

                                                  Regarding songs and games during training: Adults are so used to
                                                  being all business all the time that it's good to remind them that
                                                  we're in Scouting for fun. As others have said, lots of the folks we
                                                  train are apprehensive to begin with about this big unknown they've
                                                  given their Saturday morning up for. If we can show them that it's ok
                                                  to be goofy and smile and sing and play games, it eases the anxiety
                                                  they may be experiencing. Life's too short to be so serious. If
                                                  you're having fun, the kids see that and they too will have fun.
                                                  Scouting is after all, a "Game with a purpose"


                                                  Chris Finnegan
                                                  Bucks County Council, PA
                                                  I used to be a Bobwhite
                                                  NE-CS-59
                                                  And a good old staffer too...
                                                  NE-II-123, NE-II-150
                                                • Ann Puckett
                                                  I like this email - many very good points! I am the first one to get up and act goofy and not mind what others think but many adults are uncomfortable with
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 7, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    I like this email - many very good points!

                                                    I am the first one to get up and act goofy and not mind what others think but many adults are uncomfortable with that, the funny thing is.........they LOVE when I get up and act goofy, they said it made the meeting/outing that much more fun and sometimes it becomes catching......I also tell adults this is your one and only chance to act like a kid again, act silly and no one will judge you for it, so take the risk and have fun.

                                                    Here is the COPE website that is full of icebreakers, team building games, etc. to help break up the monotony and make things more fun. When I take kids on a hike, I often take breaks in between and play a game - it makes that 5 mile hike not seem so long and more fun!

                                                    http://www.okawbsa.org/copegames.php



                                                    Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                                                    Lots of good discussion here.

                                                    Brant wrote
                                                    I could not DISAGREE more. The CMs especially need to learn how to
                                                    have fun. Pack meetings are supposed to be fun, full of energy.

                                                    Connie wrote:
                                                    So let me revise (or clarify) my opinion a bit. I wouldn't mind games
                                                    if they had a bit of a point or made the class more memorable ( this
                                                    is hard to explain) but I guess I am looking for are exercises that
                                                    make the class wake up a bit and make an impression but not make the
                                                    participants that don't like that sort of thing uncomfortable. Adult
                                                    geared games.........any ideas????


                                                    Let me preface what I say with the expectation of a new leader, from
                                                    my own experience. Most don't want to be there, are expecting a
                                                    boring session, and are there out of obligation. Their expectations
                                                    are low. Conducting a dull, lecture heavy session would not surprise
                                                    anyone. I think that we can all agree that most of our training
                                                    should be "better" than that, that we can make it enjoyable and fun.
                                                    (I might argue that something like YPT deserves a more serious
                                                    approach, so there is always an exception...)

                                                    So, what is an appropriate game or level of fun for a training?

                                                    I would suggest that a game can serve more than one purpose and have
                                                    more than one value at training. For example, an icebreaker such as
                                                    finding people that have been to Alaska, are carrying a pocketknife,
                                                    or were Scouts as youth helps participants to meet one another and
                                                    loosen the mood. The human knot game can teach cooperation.

                                                    One skit we used to do in training was "The New Cubmaster." One
                                                    staffer would enter wearing a Smokey and tell another staffer,
                                                    sitting at a desk, "I have my hat, I've got my smile, and I'm ready
                                                    to be a leader!" The second staffer would say, "Oh, you need a leader
                                                    book. Here." It would bounce between them:
                                                    "OK, I've got my hat and my smile and my leader book, I'm ready to be
                                                    a leader."
                                                    "Oh, you should have the Guide to Safe Scouting, too."
                                                    ...and so on, until the new leader was holding a stack of 15-20
                                                    books, trying to remember them all.

                                                    Perhaps the thing we forget about these games and songs we sing is
                                                    the *other*, less obvious purpose they have. They set an example.
                                                    They demonstrate that it's OK for leaders to be silly, have fun, play
                                                    games, cut loose, and be kids again.

                                                    I think back to my first training. It was awful. I didn't want to go
                                                    to any more. Then someone said I needed Safe Swim defense, and I
                                                    reluctantly went to Roundtable. The guy that did it came out in swim
                                                    trunks, with a surfboard and SCUBA mask and snorkel and fins. It was
                                                    funny to see an adult be goofy, and instead of having the, "This is
                                                    going to be boring but I have to be here" attitude I paid attention.
                                                    It was fun. I was engaged. Most importantly, I learned.

                                                    Later I went to camp school, and the course director did "Ya Momma
                                                    Dear." I'd seen the words and directions, but never "got it" until I
                                                    saw it. How many other action songs look stupid on paper, but are fun
                                                    to sing and participate in when you actually do them? And you can't
                                                    convince me that just because a boy is a Boy Scout that Pink Pajamas
                                                    or the Quartermaster's Store suddenly aren't fun to sing.

                                                    So if, in a training, we tell people that they can sing songs and do
                                                    skits and play games, and don't give them context, are we being good
                                                    trainers? Yes, we can provide words and music to songs and
                                                    instructions to games, but if the participants can't read music or
                                                    don't understand the rules, will they take our advice, or bypass it
                                                    and stick with what they're comfortable with? Why would they risk
                                                    looking bad in front of someone who might point out they're doing it
                                                    wrong?

                                                    So a song may not apply to the specific thing being taught, like "Who
                                                    pays for Scouting," but it demonstrates things that leaders can do to
                                                    liven their meetings. A game may not illustrate a concept, but it
                                                    does show people that the game is fun and easy enough for their boys
                                                    to play. It offers people a chance to practice the skill in a safe
                                                    environment before taking it back to their unit. Most of all, it
                                                    shows leaders that you can be an adult and still act like a kid.

                                                    YiS,
                                                    Sean


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                                                  • Connie Knie
                                                    Great website thanks!! http://www.okawbsa.org/copegames.php Well after much careful planning, taking all that was said here into consideration and weighing the
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 8, 2005
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                                                      Great website thanks!!


                                                      http://www.okawbsa.org/copegames.php


                                                      Well after much careful planning, taking all that was said here into consideration and weighing the ideas, I took a couple of songs and run ons to the CM class I was teaching last Sat at UoS......

                                                      I got all set up (first time using a PP) and was waitng for the class to come in, and it just kept coming!!!!!

                                                      I could not believe how huge the class got. It was standing room only!! I kept telling myself I wasn't intimidated....LOL

                                                      So the class begins and I am using the PP. I decided to use it more as a reminder of things to talk about and was doing pretty good but not really lovin it. So after a bit I decided to shut it off and do what I feel I do best and just talk, answer questions after I find out why they have come let them all answer questions as to what has and has not worked for them. Well we ran out of time the first class. Actually I am gonna lobby for the CM class to be longer next year..........

                                                      No one really wanted to know how to run a pack meeting, we shared a few ideas but there were classes geared more towards games, sparklers and stuff like that. But I did tout the message it has to be fun or that is the kiss of death!! No meetings.......they must be parties! There was no time (or room) for games, run ons or even songs. They were all there to talk and I never saw a chance.

                                                      The Pack committee work shop was roughly the same.

                                                      I took the two hour opportunity to completely redo both my presentations. Left out the PPs completely. I discovered I am a much more effective trainer if I am not tied to the presentation. I was much more off the cuff, relaxed and better the second time I taught both sessions.

                                                      This discussion did give me food for thought and I will be more open to playing games at trainings than in the past. Thanks everyone!






                                                      connie

                                                      SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
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                                                    • brant@lippincott.us
                                                      Having a song or skit or run ons or something else fun during a training event does not necessarily teach someone how to have fun... BUT, it does teach them
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 9, 2005
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                                                        Having a song or skit or run ons or something else fun during a training event does not necessarily teach someone how to have fun... BUT, it does teach them that it is OK to have fun during something that might otherwise be percieved as "serious". It provides an EXAMPLE.

                                                        Cubmasters - especially - need to know HOW to have fun and that having FUN is an ESSENTIAL part of EVERY pack meeting. There are CMs out there who try and run a pack meeting like a board meeting. Then they wonder why the boys don't come to the pack meeting.

                                                        One of the most serious guys I know was a fabulous CM, because he knew how to have fun and make it fun for the boys.

                                                        For the Boys,
                                                        Brant


                                                        Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:Ok we can agree to disagree because I don't feel that a song or a game will "teach" someone how to have fun..........just because your training did not involve a song with hand motions or a game with balloons does not mean your pack meeting will be boring.



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