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Re: [Scouter_T] Council Specific Policies

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  • Sean Scott
    Chad, I don t believe the the council can change uniform components like this. The Insignia Guide reserves this area for the Jamboree patch, though I have seen
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 9, 2005
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      Chad,

      I don't believe the the council can change uniform components like
      this. The Insignia Guide reserves this area for the Jamboree patch,
      though I have seen Scouts and Scouters wear any number of insignia in
      this spot--the World Conservation Award, National Camp School
      patches, etc. As far as I'm aware, councils are allowed to create
      their own insignia, but they can't change where it's worn. Temporary
      patches have one spot, and the World Conservation award is a
      temporary award, nothing more.

      An example would be that the council could say that Boy Scouts could
      wear their Cub Scout awards, or wear their rank badges on their
      sleeve, or place temporary insignia on the back of the uniform shirt,
      etc. There'd be no uniformity left in the uniform!

      YiS,
      Sean

      On Jun 9, 2005, at 3:18 PM, Chad C. Cooper wrote:

      > <snip> It turns
      > out that my Council will also allow Cubs to wear it in the upper
      > right-hand corner of the uniform (Jambo patch location).
    • Dave Loomis
      We all see variations from the Insignia Guide every day in most councils. In most cases it is boys or adults who don t know the rules or have never heard
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 11, 2005
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        We all see variations from the Insignia Guide every day in most
        councils. In most cases it is boys or adults who don't know the rules
        or have never heard about the Insignia Guide. The fall into the area of
        wearing both the OA Sash and Merit Badge Sash, one over the shoulder,
        one tucked into the belt. Legend backs are also forbidden on the OA
        Sash, and we see this a lot as well. Then there's the, usually, Scouter
        with a whole ladder of Quality Unit patches on his right sleeve.

        All we can do is try to set the example ourselves, and quietly
        correct folks, preferably in private when we see a real clanger.

        Dave

        Chad C. Cooper wrote:

        > All,
        >
        > After tripping on an unwritten rule, I'm curious about how other
        > councils communicate council specific deviations from BSA's guidelines.
        > How do your councils communicate these types of things?
        >

        To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

        Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
        245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
        Portsmouth, NH 03801-3225
      • Chad C. Cooper
        This isn t a case of a couple individuals deviating from the Insignia Guide. This is our Council that has given this direction to our (National) Scout Shops
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 11, 2005
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          This isn't a case of a couple individuals deviating from the
          Insignia Guide. This is our Council that has given this direction to
          our (National) Scout Shops and our district training that the guidelines should be deviated from for the WCA.

          Our Scout Shops have been actively advising parents that this is something special in our Council. It appears that they have not publicized this in any means that is meant for public consumption and I was wondering if anyone else's Council publishes policies where the Council modifies the National program.

          - Chad
        • don-wilson@earthlink.net
          INSIGNIA GUIDE, 2003-2005 - #33066D Excerpt form the Rules and Regulations INSIGNIA, UNIFORMS, AND BADGES Article X, Section 4 ALTERATION OF BADGES AND
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 11, 2005
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            INSIGNIA GUIDE, 2003-2005 - #33066D

            Excerpt form the Rules and Regulations

            INSIGNIA, UNIFORMS, AND BADGES

            Article X, Section 4

            ALTERATION OF BADGES AND INSIGNIA

            Clause 10. No alternation of, or additions to, the official badges
            and insignia or in the rules and regulations governing their use or
            their location upon the uniform may be authorized by any Scouting
            official, local council, local executive board, or committee except
            the national Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America and
            committees specifically authorized thereof.

            Don Wilson
            427, Old Hickory Council
          • Ken.Walker@mscsoftware.com
            ... Chair, ... Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes, your training chair also contributes to BSA s unwritten lore, myths, legends and history!! LOL. Here s what this hard
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 12, 2005
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              Chad C. Cooper wrote and asked:
              >After tripping on an unwritten rule....

              > After being given a "why didn't you know" speech by my District Training
              Chair,
              > she couldn't point me to a source of where this was is writing.

              >How do your councils communicate these types of things?

              Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, yes, your training chair also contributes to BSA's
              unwritten lore, myths, legends and history!! LOL.

              Here's what this hard headed Scout Trainer would do in your situation.
              I'd tell the training chair:
              1) Thanks for the feedback on the "unwritten rule"
              2) Councils don't have this authority from BSA National Council.
              3) Until I see something different from the National Council, I will
              continue to train according to the Insignia Guide (and help debunk the
              myths about the WCA patch location!)

              Hang in there Chad. Remember, we can do it the right way and not make
              enemies (if way don't antagonize those who should be "in the know"). Good
              luck!!

              -Ken
              T-259, Plano, TX
              ...and a few other things
            • Dave Loomis
              While I do not doubt that this is verbatim from National s rule book, councils do have some latitude here or else they could not produce and award
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 12, 2005
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                While I do not doubt that this is verbatim from National's rule
                book, councils do have some latitude here or else they could not produce
                and award participation patches for various council events, such as
                camporees, or Jamboree Council and Troop Number, for their Jamboree
                Scouts. Notut they only do these patches contain either the initials,
                BSA, or the BSA Logo (one is mandatory for patches worn on the uniform),
                but they are designed to be worn on the Scout Uniform, so councils must
                be able to bend these rules a bit.

                Dave

                don-wilson@... wrote:

                > INSIGNIA GUIDE, 2003-2005 - #33066D
                >
                > Excerpt form the Rules and Regulations
                >
                > INSIGNIA, UNIFORMS, AND BADGES
                >
                > Article X, Section 4
                >
                > ALTERATION OF BADGES AND INSIGNIA
                >
                > Clause 10. No alternation of, or additions to, the official badges
                > and insignia or in the rules and regulations governing their use or
                > their location upon the uniform may be authorized by any Scouting
                > official, local council, local executive board, or committee except
                > the national Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America and
                > committees specifically authorized thereof.
                >
                > Don Wilson
                > 427, Old Hickory Council
                >

                To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

                Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                Portsmouth, NH 03801-3225
              • Ken
                What you are talking about are Temporary patches. There is a specified location in the insignia guide, the right pocket, for these to go. A Scout may wear
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 13, 2005
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                  What you are talking about are Temporary patches. There is a
                  specified location in the insignia guide, the right pocket, for
                  these to go. A Scout may wear any patch in that location. It does
                  not have to be a BSA or Council patch. For example, if Kings
                  Dominion Park had a special patch for a Scout Day (not run by the
                  local council), then my son could put that patch there. I hang my
                  Alpha Phi Omega patch from my right pocket at times.

                  What the previous poster was talking about was a council exec having
                  their Scout Shop tell parents to place a temporary patch in the
                  location reserve for a Jamboree patch. Councils don't have latitude
                  to do this.

                  Having been a leader in 5 different Councils, I have experienced a
                  variety of local customs, for example wearing the Toten' Chip patch
                  on the right pocket flap, instead of the bottom of the right pocket
                  where it was designed for. We have had confusion over the years
                  about the term of Youth Protection Training. I have always taught
                  by the book.

                  If our Council were to gie me a handout with more stringent
                  guidelines one a particular policy, I would present those as Council
                  specific guidelines. I would expect those to be distributed to
                  trainers through the council training committee, to be posted on our
                  Council web site, and given to units annually on the program launch
                  CD. In our case, we do not have any council specific guidelines.
                  It is too challenging, as we have more registered adults than any
                  other council in the country.

                  Yours in Scouting,
                  Ken

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis <dloomis@n...> wrote:
                  > While I do not doubt that this is verbatim from National's
                  rule
                  > book, councils do have some latitude here or else they could not
                  produce
                  > and award participation patches for various council events ....
                • don-wilson@earthlink.net
                  Indeed, councils are able to produce event patches. In every case, however, these event patches are temporary patches and are to be worn on the right
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 13, 2005
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                    Indeed, councils are able to produce event patches. In every case,
                    however, these event patches are "temporary" patches and are to be
                    worn on the right pocket. Only one "temporary" patch should be worn
                    at one time. Ever notice how any Scouts and Scouters wear the
                    Philmont patch in this position?

                    With respect to National Jamboree patches, council shoulder patches
                    are designed under specific guidelines. They can and do represent
                    the Council and are authorize for wear after the Jamboree. In this
                    situation only, two Jambo patches may be worn at the same time, one
                    above the pocket as directed in Jamboree rules, and on on the pocket.
                    Troop numbers for Jamboree Scouts are assigned by National, and each
                    delegate is required to wear that specific number for recognition
                    during Jambo. They should not replace the home unit number.

                    "Clause 11: SPECIAL LOCAL BADGES AND INSIGNIA

                    Local councils are authorized to adopt special badges and insignia
                    as awards for particular purposes in harmony with national policies
                    and to permit their use upon the official uniform in accordance with
                    the Rules and Regulations of the Corporation, bur such awards must be
                    approved as to purpose and design by the Corporation in advance."

                    Where the "bending" occurs is that these special badges and insignia
                    generally are approved by a professional scout within the council.
                    In some cases, even that step is skipped.

                    Don Wilson
                    427, Old Hickory Council
                  • don-wilson@earthlink.net
                    Under SCOUTING IDENTIFICATION the rules state that: It is mandatory that all badges worn on BSA uniforms contain identification including ONE of the
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 13, 2005
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                      Under SCOUTING IDENTIFICATION the rules state that:

                      "It is mandatory that all badges worn on BSA uniforms contain
                      identification including ONE of the following:

                      Corporate name (Boy Scouts of America)

                      Corporate initials (BSA)

                      BSA fleur-de-lis (universal with Eagle or plain one-color)

                      Venturing, BSA; Venturing

                      This means that all council approved Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Varsity
                      Scout, and Venturing badges also must bear a BSA identification to
                      protect them, and that these BSA cloth badges must be APPROVED BY THE
                      NATIONAL OFFICE."

                      (NOTE: capital letters used in place of bold in the manual)

                      Don Wilson
                      427, Old Hickory Council
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