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Re: New OWL Syllabus

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  • Ida Lively
    OOO ooooo OOOO oooo OOO !! I can hardly wait!!!!!! Ida
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 3, 2005
      <*shaking like a chihuahua*>

      OOO ooooo OOOO oooo OOO !! I can hardly wait!!!!!!

      <*dancing*>


      Ida
    • Ida Lively
      Steve, If my lips could stretch to Colorado, I d kiss you! Thank you! I ve downloaded the copy, so I can start reviewing it -- to see how I m going to lead my
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 15, 2005
        Steve,

        If my lips could stretch to Colorado, I'd kiss you!

        Thank you!

        I've downloaded the copy, so I can start reviewing it -- to see how I'm going to lead my Fall training(s) ... while I patiently await my own copy to arrive from National.

        As with all syllabi put out by the BSA, I purchase my own copy and scan it in. That way, when I need copies of x or y section to give to someone 1) I am not running my original through the copier [less chances of it eating my baby], 2) I am not loaning out the section to someone who might forget to give it back 3) my original doesn't get mussed (wet, dirty, stepped on, dropped in the fire, etc.) during the training session.

        I think the BSA is missing the boat with some of these things. Yes. I know there's more of a chance of people just passing it along and not purchasing; however, a Scout is HONEST, and a scout is REVERENT (my 'great scoutmaster' told me not to steal) and a scout is THRIFTY (I don't like to waste money purchasing multiple copies because someone 'borrowed' page 26, 32 and 49).

        Again, thanks!

        Ida
      • Dave Loomis
        I had a problem with this too, but since BSA does not seem to be selling a copy of this new syllabus, but making 1 - 2 copies available to each council, I
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 15, 2005
          I had a problem with this too, but since BSA does not seem to be
          selling a copy of this new syllabus, but making 1 - 2 copies available
          to each council, I can't see how we are harming National. National
          already owes me $ 15.00 for some items for which they billed me twice,
          so I'm not really worried about this now.

          Dave

          Ida Lively wrote:

          >
          > I think the BSA is missing the boat with some of these things. Yes. I
          > know there's more of a chance of people just passing it along and not
          > purchasing; however, a Scout is HONEST, and a scout is REVERENT (my
          > 'great scoutmaster' told me not to steal) and a scout is THRIFTY (I
          > don't like to waste money purchasing multiple copies because someone
          > 'borrowed' page 26, 32 and 49).
          >
          > Again, thanks!
          >
          > Ida
          >

          To reply, click on the address below.

          Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
          245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
          Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
        • Rick Rambo
          forgive me if I am incorrect, but did not we determine that this was a bin item, therefore not being sold? If that is true, they are not missing any revenue.
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 15, 2005
            forgive me if I am incorrect, but did not we determine that this was a bin item, therefore not being sold? If that is true, they are not missing any revenue.
            Rick
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Dave Loomis<mailto:dloomis@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com<mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com> ; Ilively@...<mailto:Ilively@...>
            Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 5:38 PM
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: New OWL Syllabus


            I had a problem with this too, but since BSA does not seem to be
            selling a copy of this new syllabus, but making 1 - 2 copies available
            to each council, I can't see how we are harming National. National
            already owes me $ 15.00 for some items for which they billed me twice,
            so I'm not really worried about this now.

            Dave

            Ida Lively wrote:

            >
            > I think the BSA is missing the boat with some of these things. Yes. I
            > know there's more of a chance of people just passing it along and not
            > purchasing; however, a Scout is HONEST, and a scout is REVERENT (my
            > 'great scoutmaster' told me not to steal) and a scout is THRIFTY (I
            > don't like to waste money purchasing multiple copies because someone
            > 'borrowed' page 26, 32 and 49).
            >
            > Again, thanks!
            >
            > Ida
            >

            To reply, click on the address below.

            Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
            245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349




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          • Paul
            That may be, but we are still violating copyright laws. But then I guess since we are adults and not scouts its ok to pick and choose what laws we should
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 16, 2005
              That may be, but we are still violating copyright laws. But then I
              guess since we are adults and not scouts its ok to pick and choose
              what laws we should follow.



              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Rambo" <rickram1@m...> wrote:
              > forgive me if I am incorrect, but did not we determine that this
              was a bin item, therefore not being sold? If that is true, they are
              not missing any revenue.
              > Rick
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Dave Loomis<mailto:dloomis@n...>
              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com<mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com> ;
              Ilively@a...<mailto:Ilively@a...>
              > Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 5:38 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: New OWL Syllabus
              >
              >
              > I had a problem with this too, but since BSA does not seem
              to be
              > selling a copy of this new syllabus, but making 1 - 2 copies
              available
              > to each council, I can't see how we are harming National.
              National
              > already owes me $ 15.00 for some items for which they billed me
              twice,
              > so I'm not really worried about this now.
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > Ida Lively wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > I think the BSA is missing the boat with some of these things.
              Yes. I
              > > know there's more of a chance of people just passing it along
              and not
              > > purchasing; however, a Scout is HONEST, and a scout is REVERENT
              (my
              > > 'great scoutmaster' told me not to steal) and a scout is
              THRIFTY (I
              > > don't like to waste money purchasing multiple copies because
              someone
              > > 'borrowed' page 26, 32 and 49).
              > >
              > > Again, thanks!
              > >
              > > Ida
              > >
              >
              > To reply, click on the address below.
              >
              > Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@r...
              > 245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
              > Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Scouting The Net -
              http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/<http://www.scoutingthenet.com/>
              >
              >
              >
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            • Keith Tilley
              Paul wrote: That may be, but we are still violating copyright laws. I m not so sure, because I don t think this book is copyrighted. I looked at a copy of
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 17, 2005
                Paul wrote: "That may be, but we are still violating copyright laws."

                I'm not so sure, because I don't think this book is copyrighted. I
                looked at a copy of the book and I don't see the required copyright
                notice. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I do work
                in the business of publishing educational material, and I know what
                we're required to do in order to protect our copyright... well...
                rights. I see no indication that the BSA is asserting any
                Intellectual Property rights on this book.

                The only indication of a protected asset is the circled "r" after the
                first occurrence of the name "Boy Scouts of America", because that
                name is copyrighted. That doesn't imply that the book is.

                I know this only makes the situation more unclear, but what can ya
                do? ;)

                Keith Tilley
                Rip Van Winkle Council, NY
              • Sandra Martens
                We have always been told that anything for Scouting is meant to be copied and passed along. There is no copyright infringement. It s done that way on purpose
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 17, 2005
                  We have always been told that anything for Scouting is meant to be copied and passed along. There is no copyright infringement. It's done that way on purpose so each of us doesn't have to re-invent the wheel everytime we do something.

                  Sandy OWL

                  Keith Tilley <redcoat@...> wrote:
                  Paul wrote: "That may be, but we are still violating copyright laws."

                  I'm not so sure, because I don't think this book is copyrighted. I
                  looked at a copy of the book and I don't see the required copyright
                  notice. I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I do work
                  in the business of publishing educational material, and I know what
                  we're required to do in order to protect our copyright... well...
                  rights. I see no indication that the BSA is asserting any
                  Intellectual Property rights on this book.

                  The only indication of a protected asset is the circled "r" after the
                  first occurrence of the name "Boy Scouts of America", because that
                  name is copyrighted. That doesn't imply that the book is.

                  I know this only makes the situation more unclear, but what can ya
                  do? ;)

                  Keith Tilley
                  Rip Van Winkle Council, NY




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                • Kevin
                  IF the syllabus is a bin item, it is distributed by BSA without seeking compensation for the item. That s just something they choose to do. That said, I don t
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 17, 2005
                    IF the syllabus is a bin item, it is distributed by BSA without
                    seeking compensation for the item. That's just something they choose
                    to do. That said, I don't know if this syllabus is or is not a bin item.

                    The Boy Scout syllabus for outdoor skills is a Supply Division
                    For-sale item. If the Outdoor Skills for Webelos Leaders is a bin
                    item, it strikes me as odd the training materials for the two courses
                    are treated so differently. It's numbered like a bin item but it has
                    more numbers than a typical bin item, so yeah, I'm confused.

                    However, the bin item designation, or not as the case may be, doesn't
                    have diddly to do with whether BSA has a protected copyright interest
                    or not.

                    BSA could for example elect to not enforce its rights against trainers
                    in local councils, but choose to enforce its rights against Joe Blow
                    for copying and selling bin item materials, or using them in some
                    setting without proper attribution, i.e., tossing the covers and
                    claiming authorship and ownership.

                    In short, the protections afforded via copyright are not synonymous
                    with an item being made available for profit.

                    On to another point. There is no requirement to put a copyright
                    symbol on something one elects to publish. the copyright protection
                    exists when the writing or the song etc. is created. Most folks do go
                    through the time to mark things, when it's important enough to them,
                    but it's not required. For truly important works folks also pay to
                    formally register the copyright as well. (Again, one can hold
                    copyright in a non-registered document; the registration goes toward
                    proof of the copyright interest and relates to the types of damages
                    available for an infringment.)

                    On to another point. A circled 'r' after BSA or "Boy Scouts of
                    America" has nothing at all to do with copyright. That has to do with
                    the word or phrase being a registered trademark (maybe also appliues
                    to registered servicemark, I'm simply not sure.) Trademarks and
                    service marks come with their own forms of protection against improper
                    infringement.

                    I know, I haven't resolved the ultimate issue, is it or is it not ok
                    to copy and distribute the new syllabus. On the bright side though, I
                    dinna bill anyone for the above clarifications. win some, lose some. 8^)
                  • NeilLup@aol.com
                    ... Hello Keith, I m not an attorney either but I do a fair amount of intellectual property stuff in my job. So I am pretty confident in what I will say.
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 17, 2005
                      In a message dated 7/17/05 10:12:37 AM, redcoat@... writes:


                      > The only indication of a protected asset is the circled "r" after the
                      > first occurrence of the name "Boy Scouts of America", because that
                      > name is copyrighted.  That doesn't imply that the book is.
                      >
                      >

                      Hello Keith,

                      I'm not an attorney either but I do a fair amount of intellectual property
                      stuff in my job. So I am pretty confident in what I will say.

                      There are at least four ways in which intellectual property can be protected:

                      1) Patents - not relevant here
                      2) Trade Secrets - not relevant here
                      3) Trademarks (registered or non-registered) - The circle R means
                      registered trademark. That protects the name "Boy Scouts of America." It says
                      nothing about the copyright status of the document.
                      4) Copyrights - This is indicated by a circle C. However, one does
                      not need to put the circle C on a document for it to be copyrighted. I
                      believe that one can, for a small sum, register a copyright and I understand
                      that one needs to do that if one plans to sue based on the copyright.

                      With what you have described, the BSA is protecting their name as a
                      registered trademark. It really doesn't say anything about copyright status.

                      If there is an attorney on the list and I have said anything incorrect,
                      please correct me.

                      Best wishes,

                      Neil Lupton


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • brant@lippincott.us
                      This has been an interesting discussion.... I think there are a couple of very interesting and important points that I ve gleaned out of this discussion. 1)
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 18, 2005
                        This has been an interesting discussion....

                        I think there are a couple of very interesting and important points that I've gleaned out of this discussion.

                        1) Bin items - these are not available to the "general public". You can not walk into the scout shop and BUY the new OLSWL syllabus. BUT, anyone can walk in and buy the latest Webelos handbook, the Cub Leader Guide, etc.

                        2) Copying materials - I too was told that it was permissible to copy the TRAINING materials, but not the books. So, the LST syllabus could be copied, but not the Cub Leader Book. In fact, we had a large meeting some years ago - a gathering of trainers - in which everyone who wanted one was given a copy of the LST and BALOO sylabi - with the DE present, so I assume that the information about copying being OK was correct.

                        I STILL do not understand why this particular syllabus has been SO hard to come by. We were told that it was under development YEARS ago. We were told that it was DONE - I think it was two years ago. Then last summer at PTC it was supposed to be out in the FALL of 2004. The Outdoor Guide for 2005 mentions it and that it would be out in "Early 2005". Now that it's out, it's being rationed??? I was even told that the course was defunct and that it was not to be taught. We tried to attract Webelos leaders to the OLS course with only limited success. I rebelled and offered the course - my DE was not happy. He still believed that it was defunct, but we had 8 attendees.

                        Anyway, I asked my DE for a copy A day or two after it was announced as available here and still don't have it. In fact, I asked him for the Cub Outdoor Program Guidelines LAST FALL, and still don't have it.


                        For the Boys,
                        Brant



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Wendell Brown
                        ... Ok guys, here s my take based on my limited (non lawyer) understanding and published BSA National guidelines: 1) As someone else stated, Copyright is
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 18, 2005
                          > 2) Copying materials - I too was told that it was permissible to copy
                          > the TRAINING materials, but not the books. So, the LST syllabus
                          > could be copied, but not the Cub Leader Book. In fact, we had a
                          > large meeting some years ago - a gathering of trainers - in which
                          > everyone who wanted one was given a copy of the LST and BALOO sylabi
                          > - with the DE present, so I assume that the information about copying
                          > being OK was correct.

                          Ok guys, here's my take based on my limited (non lawyer) understanding
                          and published BSA National guidelines:

                          1) As someone else stated, Copyright is granted automatically on the
                          creation of a document. You do NOT have to add a Copyright mark or
                          register the Copyright for a document to be Copyrighted (this change
                          took effect sometime after 1975 I think).

                          2) Under "Legal Issues" on National's "Advice for personal and unit Web
                          sites" page they say:

                          http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/units.html

                          "Myriad federal and state laws govern publishing in any medium,
                          including the Internet—copyright infringement, privacy of information,
                          defamation, etc. You should familiarize yourself with these laws so you
                          can ensure that the information you publish doesn't create any legal
                          problems for you or your chartered organization. Key among these legal
                          issues are that (1) you should never collect personal information about
                          youth members over the Internet, and (2) you should never reproduce or
                          display on your Web sites content from some other source without written
                          permission."

                          3) BSA has a "Copyright Permission" request example of the Council
                          Webmasters site so it is possible that they would grant the right to
                          publish the syllabus if asked:

                          http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/standards/appendix-b.html

                          4) It looks to me like it would be valid for any COUNCIL to publish
                          this (if it is in fact a bin item) since national SPECIFICALLY grants
                          that right to Councils:

                          http://www.scouting.org/webmasters/standards/04.html

                          "National Council Publications

                          Local councils may reproduce the content of any BSA "bin resources"
                          publication they feel is appropriate for their sites' audiences.
                          However, councils may not replicate any part of any publication
                          currently for sale through the Supply Division. The difference between
                          "bin" and "supply" items may seem unclear for those items the council
                          purchases but then redistributes without charge to its members. Item
                          numbers provide a reliable method of differentiation: bin items have
                          five-digit numbers separated with a hyphen (00-000) whereas Supply
                          Division items have four or five digits (the first is typically a 3 or
                          4) that are not separated by a hyphen (0000 or 00000). (The item number
                          is generally printed on the back cover or at the bottom of the contents
                          page.)

                          Specific exceptions to this rule have been made so that approved council
                          Web sites can link to certain Supply Division forms (medical forms, tour
                          permits, certain applications, etc.) that are posted on a hidden
                          location on the National Council site. Likewise, the Guide to Safe
                          Scouting, a Supply Division item, has been approved for approved council
                          Web site links. Such exceptions are rare, and generally focus on service
                          to members through the local council.

                          Content of Boys' Life and Scouting magazines should never be reproduced
                          on council Web sites without first obtaining permission from the
                          Magazine Division. Many articles and images are included in the
                          magazines under limited license and copying them could violate copyright
                          law. Councils may employ "frames" technology to include either
                          magazine's pages from the National Council site into the council site,
                          but should never copy any magazine files or text excerpts or images
                          without explicit permission."

                          Hope some of this clears things up.
                        • Dave Loomis
                          Let me take your points in order. Bin Items, up until this point were those publications that are free, may be requested from your Scout Service Center, or by
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 18, 2005
                            Let me take your points in order.

                            Bin Items, up until this point were those publications that are
                            free, may be requested from your Scout Service Center, or by calling the
                            National Supply Service in Charlotte NC, 1 800 323 0732, and requesting
                            them. Normally, bin items have a number in the format of NN-NNN, two
                            numbers a dash and then three more numbers, as opposed to normal supply
                            items which have a stock number like NNNNN. The new pamphlet, Outdoor
                            Skills for WEBELOS Leaders, was a notable exception to these points,
                            perhaps because its initial printing was in numbers too limited for all
                            of us to order, and was shipped directy to councils. The initial
                            training packages for Cub Scout, Boy Scout, Venturing, and later Varsity
                            Leaders, in the cute plastic briefcases may have fallen under this
                            restriction when they first came out. I was given as many specific
                            pamphlets at Philmont when I was learning about the new training for the
                            21st century. Later on I was given two of the, then, three packets to
                            use with the training I did, with instructions not to lose them on pain
                            of death. I expect as the available quantities becomes larger we may be
                            allowed to buy this booklet at our Scout Shops.

                            Copying any booklets available from National can only serve to
                            cause the price of these publications to go up. Further, if you budget
                            the cost of these materials into the cost of your course, there is no
                            need to copy them at all. <Wild supposition> Excessive copying of
                            course materials MAY, I repeat MAY have led to the decision to print
                            enough Outdoor Skills for WEBELOS Leaders booklets to provide one for
                            each council, relying on our prolific use of copy machines to see that
                            everyone who needs a copy can get one. </Wild supposition> This is
                            ONLY a supposition, I do not know that it is a fact.

                            As I understood the story that was circulating from National, the
                            original publication date for this course outline was set in stone at
                            National. Just before the material was to go to the printers a decision
                            was made to make a few changes in its contents, causing it to miss its
                            print time at the printers. When this sort of thing happens, the print
                            shops go on with the next job in line and the job that missed the boat
                            queues up with the rest of the material for printing but at the bottom
                            of the list.

                            At any rate, it is availabl now, and you should get some sort of
                            a copy soon.

                            Dave

                            brant@... wrote:

                            > This has been an interesting discussion....
                            >
                            > I think there are a couple of very interesting and important points
                            > that I've gleaned out of this discussion.
                            >

                            To reply, click on the address below.

                            Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                            245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                          • Ken
                            Wendle, That was very good. Thank you. Perosnally, as a Scout Leader, I try to rememebr that a Scout is Trustworthy and Loyal. I endevour to abide by the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 19, 2005
                              Wendle,

                              That was very good. Thank you.

                              Perosnally, as a Scout Leader, I try to rememebr that a Scout is
                              Trustworthy and Loyal. I endevour to abide by the laws to the best of
                              my ability and understanding. Debating the costs or availability are
                              not appropriate to the discussion of legality.

                              Items that are sold by the BSA are not to be copied by individuals,
                              unless so labeled, or available for download from the BSA or local
                              Council web site. In those situations where the item is unavailable,
                              or too costly, work with your local Council Office. If items are
                              unavailable, ask them to make copies. If items are too costly,
                              building money into your training event budgets to purchase the
                              materials needed. Training materials normally have pages that are
                              designed to be copied, and they are labled as such.

                              That is the best example I can think of for our Scouts.

                              Yours in Scouting,
                              Ken

                              PS - I will be in the United Methodist Church Booth at the Jamboree.

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Wendell Brown <wbrown@a...> wrote:
                              > Ok guys, here's my take based on my limited (non lawyer)
                              understanding
                              > and published BSA National guidelines:
                            • Robert Wilson
                              Hello from a lurker. We all want our leaders trained. I ve read the comments about copyright and costs of creating training material. How does this sound? The
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 22, 2005
                                Hello from a lurker. We all want our leaders trained. I've read the
                                comments about copyright and costs of creating training material. How
                                does this sound? The BSA budgets internally to cover the costs of
                                training development. They charge at cost for printed documentation
                                and videos and make PDFs and videos available via download for free or
                                charge a bandwidth fee to cover cost. Training material should be
                                freely reproduced for BSA programs. All current material would be
                                available online and if one wanted the new printed stuff, they could
                                get it.

                                I've bought tons of training material from the BSA. I've also needed
                                materials that the local scout shop doesn't have. I've had to track
                                down the materials through other leaders which makes it more difficult
                                than it needs to be. By making these documents available online, it
                                would make the program better.

                                Yours in scouting,

                                --
                                Robert Wilson, Pack 3266/Troop 166
                                Burks United Methodist Church, Hixson, TN 37343
                                http://scouts.burks.org - I used to be an Owl, a good old Owl too.
                              • Wendell Brown
                                ... That sounds great. The only problem I see is they have to HAVE the money to be able to budget it. How would you propose to raise the money? Increase all
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 22, 2005
                                  Robert Wilson wrote:

                                  > Hello from a lurker. We all want our leaders trained. I've read the
                                  > comments about copyright and costs of creating training material. How
                                  > does this sound? The BSA budgets internally to cover the costs of
                                  > training development.

                                  That sounds great. The only problem I see is they have to HAVE the
                                  money to be able to budget it. How would you propose to raise the
                                  money? Increase all scout dues to National?

                                  > They charge at cost for printed documentation
                                  > and videos and make PDFs and videos available via download for free or
                                  > charge a bandwidth fee to cover cost.

                                  This is pretty much the way bin items are currently handled. The cost
                                  is just printing, inventory and distribution. As to downloads, this is
                                  a council option for bin items. If a council (or more accurately the
                                  hosting company that provides them bandwidth) chooses to publish bin
                                  items, the can.

                                  > Training material should be
                                  > freely reproduced for BSA programs. All current material would be
                                  > available online and if one wanted the new printed stuff, they could
                                  > get it.

                                  I agree. I hope that BSA chooses to continue releasing training
                                  material as bin items (like the Webelos Outdoor syllabus). If not...

                                  > I've bought tons of training material from the BSA. I've also needed
                                  > materials that the local scout shop doesn't have. I've had to track
                                  > down the materials through other leaders which makes it more difficult
                                  > than it needs to be. By making these documents available online, it
                                  > would make the program better.

                                  I feel your pain! ;) My only comment here is that it has been my
                                  experience that going to Kinko's to make 5 copies of a syllabus has cost
                                  me a LOT more than ordering "real" copies from national. No matter how
                                  you look at it, someone is paying for EVERY page that is printed or
                                  copied. Copying is generally WAY more expensive than printing, it's
                                  just spread over thousands of individuals (or pawned off on an employer
                                  - either with or without their knowledge). When I've printed PDF's on
                                  my laser printer it ate my toner (and my time).

                                  IMHO, planning ahead and ordering a real copy from National (even of non
                                  bin items) costs me less in the long run.
                                • Dave Loomis
                                  The only time I have not found this to be true was when I was running a course with few presenters, for a small group of learners. Venturing Adult Leader
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 22, 2005
                                    The only time I have not found this to be true was when I was
                                    running a course with few presenters, for a small group of learners.
                                    Venturing Adult Leader Training comes to mind. In the other courses,
                                    buying a couple of Course Outlines each year insured that we were
                                    teaching current material, and that each presenter had his or her part
                                    of the syllabus to train from.

                                    As far as finding training materials not in your local Scout
                                    Shop, buy them from National. Almost all of Boy Svouting's literature
                                    is available from the Nation Supply Service in Charlotte, NC, 1 800 323
                                    0732. A catalof of what they have, what BSA publishes, is available
                                    from the NSS as the [Scouting] Library of Literature, bin item, 70-080D
                                    [2005 version]. As bin item, it is free to anyone who calls, and NSS
                                    even pays the postage.

                                    The only exception that I know to this rule is the old
                                    WOLT/OWL/WEBELOS in the Woods, WEBELOS Outdoor Leader Training, which
                                    was out of print and now has been printed in what seems like one copy
                                    per council.

                                    Dave

                                    Wendell Brown wrote:

                                    > Robert Wilson wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I've bought tons of training material from the BSA. I've also needed
                                    > > materials that the local scout shop doesn't have. I've had to track
                                    > > down the materials through other leaders which makes it more difficult
                                    > > than it needs to be. By making these documents available online, it
                                    > > would make the program better.
                                    >
                                    > I feel your pain! ;) My only comment here is that it has been my
                                    > experience that going to Kinko's to make 5 copies of a syllabus has cost
                                    > me a LOT more than ordering "real" copies from national. No matter how
                                    > you look at it, someone is paying for EVERY page that is printed or
                                    > copied. Copying is generally WAY more expensive than printing, it's
                                    > just spread over thousands of individuals (or pawned off on an employer
                                    > - either with or without their knowledge). When I've printed PDF's on
                                    > my laser printer it ate my toner (and my time).
                                    >
                                    > IMHO, planning ahead and ordering a real copy from National (even of non
                                    > bin items) costs me less in the long run.
                                    >
                                    >

                                    To reply, click on the address below.

                                    Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                                    245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                                    Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                                  • Robert Wilson
                                    ... That would be an option. Maybe the could have a Friends of Training campaign. It would be interesting to know how much the development costs are for these
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 22, 2005
                                      On 7/22/05, Wendell Brown <wbrown@...> wrote:
                                      > Robert Wilson wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > Hello from a lurker. We all want our leaders trained. I've read the
                                      > > comments about copyright and costs of creating training material. How
                                      > > does this sound? The BSA budgets internally to cover the costs of
                                      > > training development.
                                      >
                                      > That sounds great. The only problem I see is they have to HAVE the
                                      > money to be able to budget it. How would you propose to raise the
                                      > money? Increase all scout dues to National?

                                      That would be an option. Maybe the could have a Friends of Training
                                      campaign. It would be interesting to know how much the development
                                      costs are for these types of materials.

                                      > IMHO, planning ahead and ordering a real copy from National (even of non
                                      > bin items) costs me less in the long run.

                                      More and more I teach from note cards hand written based on the BSA
                                      material. It allows me to walk around and be more interactive with the
                                      class. I don't need printed documentation most of the time.

                                      Robert

                                      --
                                      Robert Wilson, Pack 3266/Troop 166
                                      Burks United Methodist Church, Hixson, TN 37343
                                      http://scouts.burks.org - I used to be an Owl, a good old Owl too.
                                    • Judy Yeager
                                      One poster said, IMHO, planning ahead and ordering a real copy from National (even of non bin items) costs me less in the long run. As training chair for my
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 22, 2005
                                        One poster said, "IMHO, planning ahead and ordering a real copy from National (even of non bin items) costs me less in the long run."

                                        As training chair for my District, I do not feel that my trainers should have to use their personal funds to purchase a syllabus to do volunteer work. It should be provided to them.

                                        And another replied, "More and more I teach from note cards hand written based on the BSA material. It allows me to walk around and be more interactive with the
                                        class. I don't need printed documentation most of the time."

                                        Certainly note cards are the recommended materials for a trainer, but doesn't one need the syllabus to make the note cards? And shouldn't each trainer have a copy of the entire syllabus so they know how their portion relates to the rest of the course?
                                        I would not want any of my trainers to have their entire syllabus in front of them when they are presenting, but they need it for prep.

                                        Judy Yeager
                                        NT District Training Chair, HOAC


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Robert Wilson
                                        ... Amen. ... Amen ... I m not quite to that point yet. I write notes in the white space to the left and right of the copied documentation. As I become more
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jul 23, 2005
                                          On 7/23/05, Judy Yeager <kcjscout@...> wrote:
                                          > As training chair for my District, I do not feel that my trainers should have to use their personal funds to purchase a syllabus to do volunteer work. It should be provided to them.

                                          Amen.

                                          > Certainly note cards are the recommended materials for a trainer, but doesn't one need the syllabus to make the note cards? And shouldn't each trainer have a copy of the entire syllabus so they know how their portion relates to the rest of the course?

                                          Amen

                                          > I would not want any of my trainers to have their entire syllabus in front of them when they are presenting, but they need it for prep.

                                          I'm not quite to that point yet. I write notes in the white space to
                                          the left and right of the copied documentation. As I become more
                                          experienced, the use of note cards has increased and sometimes stuff
                                          actually comes from memory, which to me is an amazing thing. :-)

                                          --
                                          Robert Wilson, Pack 3266/Troop 166
                                          Burks United Methodist Church, Hixson, TN 37343
                                          http://scouts.burks.org - I used to be an Owl, a good old Owl too.
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