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Re: Cub Advancement

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  • Dan Hammond, Sr.
    Greetings and Salutations, Pardon the cross-posting. The following was posted on Scouts-L and I feel it has wide reaching impact. If the requirement
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 14, 2005
      Greetings and Salutations,

      Pardon the cross-posting. The following was posted on
      Scouts-L and I feel it has wide reaching impact.

      <snip>
      "If the requirement says to go bowling, I feel that a
      Scout should go to the bowling alley for the purpose
      of "earning" that requirement and badge. Using the
      premise that "he went bowling at his friends birthday
      party 6 weeks ago" just seems to be giving them credit
      for something and handing them a badge that they
      didn't seem to "work" for. When I was the
      CM, I handed boys awards that the boy didn't even know
      that he had earned or what the award meant,
      because his parent did just this.
      Just my opinion and of course the rule versus my
      interpretation of the spirit of the rule are two
      totally different things.

      C. Scott Davis
      Executive Officer
      Pack 714
      Unit Commissioner
      Cardinal District
      Heart of Virginia Council (formerly Robert E. Lee
      Council)
      Richmond, VA
      Nawakwa 3
      "I used to be a Bear..."


      Just a thought on advancement in general and Cub
      Scouts in particular.

      Advancement should be fun. An ideal advancement
      program occurs when boys complete requirements without
      knowing they're "working" on requirements.

      I don't necessarily disagree that activities should be
      done specifically for the rank that is being wrked on
      at the time, but we should be able to do the
      requirements without turning it into a "class."

      Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers should all be able
      to have many advancement requirements be completed
      during the course of normal activities, not in a
      "class" setting.

      Giving credit to a boy for going bowling as part of an
      activity for a belt loop or similar award sounds like
      a great plan to me. I would opine that as long as it
      took place in the current rank year, it's fine to give
      him credit.

      When my son was in his Bear year, we moved from
      Wisconsin to Washington State. As part of the trip we
      stopped at Mount Rushmore. One of the requirements
      was to visit an historic landmark. Should I have made
      him wait until a den meeting to have to do it again?
      After all he didn't "work" for it. Don't think so.

      =====
      Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
      Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret), Overtrained Scout Leader, Kaw District Activity Chairman, CM P3001, SA T366, NRA Life Member
      |<--W-W-W--<<<|
      I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
      And a good old staffer too (C-34-04)

      Cheerful Service; because it's the right thing to do



      __________________________________
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      Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
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    • John
      Thanks for posting this. I have seen this as a cubmaster myself. Actually one of my Den Leaders is one of the worst offenders. In my opinion as a den leader
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 15, 2005
        Thanks for posting this. I have seen this as a cubmaster myself.
        Actually one of my Den Leaders is one of the worst offenders. In my
        opinion as a den leader you always have the right to "see the work"
        or at least talk to the boy to see what they got out of the activity.
        This should be done before the awards are submitted. As leaders it is
        up to us to make sure that the awards have meaning.

        These boys get a real awakening when the move to Boy Scouts when
        their parents are no longer able to "sign off" on requirements.





        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Hammond, Sr."
        <danhammondsr@y...> wrote:
        > Greetings and Salutations,
        >
        > Pardon the cross-posting. The following was posted on
        > Scouts-L and I feel it has wide reaching impact.
        >
        > <snip>
        > "If the requirement says to go bowling, I feel that a
        > Scout should go to the bowling alley for the purpose
        > of "earning" that requirement and badge. Using the
        > premise that "he went bowling at his friends birthday
        > party 6 weeks ago" just seems to be giving them credit
        > for something and handing them a badge that they
        > didn't seem to "work" for. When I was the
        > CM, I handed boys awards that the boy didn't even know
        > that he had earned or what the award meant,
        > because his parent did just this.
        > Just my opinion and of course the rule versus my
        > interpretation of the spirit of the rule are two
        > totally different things.
        >
        > C. Scott Davis
        > Executive Officer
        > Pack 714
        > Unit Commissioner
        > Cardinal District
        > Heart of Virginia Council (formerly Robert E. Lee
        > Council)
        > Richmond, VA
        > Nawakwa 3
        > "I used to be a Bear..."
        >
        >
        > Just a thought on advancement in general and Cub
        > Scouts in particular.
        >
        > Advancement should be fun. An ideal advancement
        > program occurs when boys complete requirements without
        > knowing they're "working" on requirements.
        >
        > I don't necessarily disagree that activities should be
        > done specifically for the rank that is being wrked on
        > at the time, but we should be able to do the
        > requirements without turning it into a "class."
        >
        > Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venturers should all be able
        > to have many advancement requirements be completed
        > during the course of normal activities, not in a
        > "class" setting.
        >
        > Giving credit to a boy for going bowling as part of an
        > activity for a belt loop or similar award sounds like
        > a great plan to me. I would opine that as long as it
        > took place in the current rank year, it's fine to give
        > him credit.
        >
        > When my son was in his Bear year, we moved from
        > Wisconsin to Washington State. As part of the trip we
        > stopped at Mount Rushmore. One of the requirements
        > was to visit an historic landmark. Should I have made
        > him wait until a den meeting to have to do it again?
        > After all he didn't "work" for it. Don't think so.
        >
        > =====
        > Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
        > Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret), Overtrained Scout Leader, Kaw
        District Activity Chairman, CM P3001, SA T366, NRA Life Member
        > |<--W-W-W--<<<|
        > I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
        > And a good old staffer too (C-34-04)
        >
        > Cheerful Service; because it's the right thing to do
        >
        >
        >
        > __________________________________
        > Do you Yahoo!?
        > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
        > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
      • John Oliphant
        John wrote ... No argument there, and that awakening is OK, IMO. What concerns me, however, is the notion that because they ll have a different situation in a
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 16, 2005
          John wrote>

          >As leaders it is up to us to make sure that the awards have meaning.
          >These boys get a real awakening when the move to Boy Scouts
          >when their parents are no longer able to "sign off" on requirements.

          No argument there, and that awakening is OK, IMO. What concerns me, however,
          is the notion that because they'll have a different situation in a few
          years, we should hold them to a higher standard now. I've had to correct
          teachers and coaches who insist that "they'll need to know/do this next
          year/two years from now, so we may as well start doing it now."

          Buh-loney.

          Ages and stages is the rule. If we want to see kids fail, push them too
          early. (not pointing at you, John, your message just reminded me about this,
          and I need to have a conversation with a volleyball coach today...)

          -John Oliphant
          T696 ASM
          Wabano District BS Trainer
          SW Michigan Council
        • Ken Walker
          ... Just an additional thought ..... Hopefully, the boys start to transition when they are Webelos, with the Webelos DL approving most of the requirements.
          Message 4 of 6 , Feb 16, 2005
            John <jlukash@...> wrote (in part):
            >
            > These boys get a real awakening when the move to Boy Scouts when
            > their parents are no longer able to "sign off" on requirements.

            Just an additional thought .....

            Hopefully, the boys start to transition when they are Webelos, with the
            Webelos DL approving "most" of the requirements. This should reduce the
            "shock" when ONLY the ASMs, MBCs (and other adults) are approving Boy Scout
            requirements.

            (Even though this doesn't fall squarely in "'training", one could argue
            it's WDL training!)

            -Ken
          • NeilLup@aol.com
            ... Hmmm. This certainly is one way to do it, but in most boy run Troops, skill requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class are approved (signed off)
            Message 5 of 6 , Feb 17, 2005
              In a message dated 2/16/05 8:27:00 PM, Ken.Walker@... writes:


              > This should reduce the
              > "shock" when ONLY the ASMs, MBCs (and other adults) are approving Boy Scout
              > requirements.
              >

              Hmmm. This certainly is one way to do it, but in most boy run Troops,
              skill requirements from Tenderfoot through First Class are approved (signed
              off) by boy leaders.

              Best wishes,

              Neil Lupton


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brant Lippincott
              Finally getting caught up on some follow-up.... Cub advancement is an interesting and (IMHO) often misunderstood topic. Remember that the motto of Cub Scouts
              Message 6 of 6 , Feb 22, 2005
                Finally getting caught up on some follow-up....

                Cub advancement is an interesting and (IMHO) often misunderstood topic.

                Remember that the motto of Cub Scouts is "Do Your Best". The operative word here is "do". The scout should actually "do" the activity. We all know of the Cub who came in where their parent had signed off on everything (and I mean everything). The parent in this case is not doing the boy any good by signing off on things they have not really done. Below the Webelos level, it's kind of hard to question this. At the Webelos level, the DEN leader is supposed to have the ultimate sign off. Personally, I would not recommend getting into a war of wills with a parent over this, but perhaps I'd take them aside and quitely explain that in the future, I'd like to see some sort of verification that the boy actually did it.

                I don't think it's "pushing" the boy to require that he actually DO or DO HIS BEST on a requirement....

                On the topic of Belt loops, pins, etc. This was not intended tobe a GO DO IT type thing. Many boys have outside interests (Sports, academics, etc.). So if the boy participates in a soccer league, he probably completes the soccer belt loop and likely the pin. Get a copy of the book and check it out. You are more than welcome to take your boys out to learn how to play (lets say "ultimate") and then everyone earns the belt loop. But find out what the boys do outside and reward them.

                I'm going to have to disagree with some of what "Dave in Tennessee" wrote. True, it is the responsibility of the parents to insure that their boy completes the requirements, but I see things differently.

                As a Den Leader, you should set up a program to insure that the boys can complete a LOT (if not MOST) of the requirements simply by attending most of the den meetings. True, there are a number of requirements that are not possible to earn in the den meeting. These, you communicate to the parents. Tell them what is expected of them and their son. You'll find that most of them will complete what you tell them to do.

                I think that John did his den a diserevice by completing the "Sawdust and Nails" without them. Not all parents are intentionally lazy. Many have lots of other interests, work, etc that will pull them away from being able to do something like this. Others simply do not have the skills or the TOOLS to do this. John should have volunteered his garage for the meeting. As a Den Leader, I hold him to a higher standard on this one. If he were "just a parent", I'd let it slide. My den built a tool box during a den meeting. I had a lot of help from a number of other parents who brought several additional hand tools to the meeting and supervised the boys working.

                As a DEN leader, you should find out what your parents know and can do. The "Parent Survey" is a great resource. Then ASK them for their help. You can use your parents to provide a well rounded program. As a den leader, you don't have to do everything. It's trite, but the TEAM approach works (Together Everyone Achieves More).

                Lastly, John, I think perhaps you misspoke on the EAGLE topic. This is one area that the BOY MUST do. BOYS should be held back for NOT completing the requirements. It's not "Do your best". It's "DO". EAGLE REQUIRED badges are not Eagle "suggested" badges. They must be completed.

                We must rememeber WHY we do this. And true, not all parents are as motivated as the leaders, especially the folks who frequent THIS board. But EVERYTHNG we do is FOR THE BOYS. If the parents fall down in an area, we can try like heck to fill the gap. True, there are some things we can't do ("make a list of chores that you do at home and keep track of it for ..."). There are some things best done at home ("Tell a parent about the dangers of smoking") - but there is another part of THAT requirement ("or other adult").

                Our goal is to help the boy in achieving his best.

                For the Boys,
                Brant


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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