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Re: [Scouter_T] Board of Review situation

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  • Nicholas Clark
    Hi: I think you did the right thing in not pass the Scout on to Star. I have a similar situation in my Troop in regard to the pull ups. 0 pull ups on the
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 6, 2004
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      Hi:

      I think you did the right thing in not pass the Scout on to Star.

      I have a similar situation in my Troop in regard to the pull ups. 0 pull ups on the first test, 3/4 of a pull up on the second test. Most would call this an improvement.

      Now I know we are talking about two different ranks, yours (I know you are not the SM) to Star and mine to Tenderfoot. My concern is where do we draw the line on a Scout accomplishing something or almost accomplishing something?

      Love those Cub Scouts, was a leader for four years, but the standards change a little from Cub Scouting to Boy Scouts.

      A boy going for Star and doesn't know the Oath, I'm sorry, the line must be drawn. The line should have been drawn when this boy was going for Tenderfoot.

      nick





      Cstrek97@... wrote: Hi ALL,

      I'd like to "vent" a little, and ask for some feedback as well.

      Two nights ago, I was 1/5 of a Board for 2 Star Scouts. First one passed
      flying colors. Second one didn't pass. I got some heat from the mother.
      THAT'S what's bothering me. Her words to me. Should I/we have passed her son
      to STAR? I don't think so, but would welcome some feedback.

      I am the Troop Committee Chairman. Have been for 5 years. Been a Committee
      Member for 8. I am the District Training Chairman for 3 years for BOY Scout
      Adult Leaders. I have been asked, and did, teach Committee Challenge at
      University of Scouting for our Council this past January. I came prepared, and did
      well. I think I know my "stuff".

      Since we have about 30 scouts in the Troop, I can't remember who is going for
      what at each Board of Review. I started by asking this particular Scout what
      rank he was going for so I could pull out my 4 or 5 copies of requirements
      for that rank, and pass them around the table to the other 4 adults on the
      Board. He had no clue. Even after a minute. We finally took his Scoutbook,
      opened it up, and determined in seconds that he was going for Star rank. Very
      well. I asked him to stand and tell us the Scout Oath. I got a couple of words.
      I was very polite, and offered him to use his book. He couldn't find it.
      Another adult did. He stumbled on the words. Got most of them. Ditto on the
      Scout Law. Fine...nervousness.

      Questions were asked. Not much for answers. One was "what Eagle required
      merit badges did you do for Star?" Scout had no clue. We finally got it
      out of the book. Service project was helping Girl Scouts at a Pinewood
      Derby. He carried cars from the bottom up to the top. wow.

      More questions were followed by TOO many "I don't know."

      I started writing things down. When you dont' pass, we need to write down
      for the Scout where he can improve, right? I was done with questions. When
      others on the Board were also, we excused the Scout, and immediately noted that
      he was not a good representative of a Star Scout in our opinion. Oh
      yeah....one of the questions that was asked was his age. "Just turned 12".

      I called him back, and told him that we would like him to come back in 1
      week, and try again. Practice some of the things that we talked about, and try
      again, and again, and again, if he needs to...but we just didn't think he was
      ready to pass tonight. I handed him my paper with comments , explained it all
      to him, and we all encouraged him to practice and "see ya next week !" with
      enthusiasm.

      I went to talk with his mother...as I am the Chairman. Advancement Chairman
      was right behind me. He sat on the Board also. I knew that any parent
      wouldn't be too happy, but I was verbally confronted a little too much. Was
      accussed that I was changing the questions all of a sudden. Said that any BOR she
      sat in on...Law and Oath were never asked. Wrong. (Scouts of any rank
      should know them by heart anyway....especially by STAR). Everything was you,
      you,you. No consideration that it was 5 adults, and a unanimous decision, and
      that we did not say he failed....we invited him back for a 2nd -10th time to
      try again. Mother says, he is in tears. Hmmm....Going for
      Star....leadership, responsibility....etc didn't even know what rank he was going for, now
      he's in tears....and she's yelling at me for not passing him? "Why are you
      testing him now...never did before?" No test questions were asked...BOR is
      not a test...a review. She didn't want to hear it.
      On and on.

      I've checked macscouter.com today, under "Scoutmaster and Committee Stuff",
      and reviewed the 12 pages of A Guide to Conducting a Board of Review. Our
      BOR's look at this stuff and follow it. We don't test. We review. I wrote
      comments on where to review, and encouraged him to come back next week.

      So, what do you all think? This is the first time I have EVER mentioned the
      particulars of a BOR, but I'm hurt. All the time, effort, money, time away
      from my family...and I get this? First time it's happened, but I'm
      surprised at the personal affront from the parent. I don't want anyone to insult the
      honor of Scouting by allowing a Scout to pass a BOR that isn't qualified, but
      none of us asked any tough questions. You don't pass a BOR for STAR by
      walking into the room in full uniform.

      Thanks for letting me vent.

      unsigned to keep the Scouts anonymity, not mine. He's a good person, and a
      good Scout. Just "ain't" ready for Star...and barely made it over the fence
      with 1St Class in my opinion. At 12, he's got 6 more years to go still.
      Why the noise when we just invited him to come back 1 week later?


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    • slpete42
      ... I would feel hung out by the Scoutmaster. Steve indicates best and proper practice for what should have happended around and at the Scoutmasters
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 7, 2004
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        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Cstrek97@a... wrote:

        > I got some heat from the mother. THAT'S what's bothering me.

        I would feel "hung out" by the Scoutmaster. Steve indicates best and
        proper practice for what should have happended around and at the
        Scoutmasters' conference before the board of review. I would ask
        myself how well am I doing with the SM. How good is my feedback in
        general and specifically on the earlier occassion of reservations
        about the first class board. Rarely, should bad boards be a boy's
        problem. My philistine attitude: That's what we pay the big bucks to
        the SMs for. My tendency in answering to Mom: Sorry, our procedures
        screwed up.

        "Often wrong, never uncertain"
      • Mullaney, Peter [AMSRD-AAR-AEE-P]
        Is it possible that the Scout in question has Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? Not all these cases involve hyperactivity (ADHD) and actually some ADD kids
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 8, 2004
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          Is it possible that the Scout in question has
          Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? Not all these
          cases involve hyperactivity (ADHD) and actually
          some ADD kids are introverted and will not give an answer
          even if they know it. If a boy has special needs
          they should be made known to the board before the review.

          I'm not saying that this is so in this case, but it is
          a possibility.

          Pete Mullaney


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Scouter Chuck
          Pete wrote... ... I was going to bring up the same thing, but have not had time to compose the reply. I have to add, too, that many of these kids will know
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 8, 2004
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            Pete wrote...

            > Is it possible that the Scout in question has
            > Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD)? Not all these
            > cases involve hyperactivity (ADHD) and actually
            > some ADD kids are introverted and will not give an answer
            > even if they know it. If a boy has special needs
            > they should be made known to the board before the review.
            >
            > I'm not saying that this is so in this case, but it is
            > a possibility.

            I was going to bring up the same thing, but have not had time to
            compose the reply. I have to add, too, that many of these kids
            will know the answer until you ask them, at which point you get the
            "deer in the headlights look" and their mind goes totally blank.

            It's not for no reason that the older advancement materials
            indicated that "testing for rank" was to be by SM observation.
            I.e., when the SM saw the Scout performing the required task, it
            was quietly signed off.

            For a boy with ADHD, testing becomes MAJOR STRESS. You know, that
            could also explain the "in your face" parent.

            The SM Conference is to reinforce that learning and to find out how
            the boy is doing in his own mind. The BOR is a review of the Troop
            program.

            The SM and ASMs are not to sit on the BOR, because if the Scout is
            having a problem with one of them, and he sees you as one of them
            as well, he won't speak up and will eventually leave.

            That is one reason why I question the BOR members wearing the
            uniform around the Scouts. They see the uniform, and you become a
            SA or SM in their minds.

            YiS,

            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
            Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
            -------------------------------------------------------------------
            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
            -- Stephen R. Covey
            -------------------------------------------------------------------
          • phoage
            Obviously I have not checked this group in a while. The previous answers were all good but there is one thing that was barely touched on that might also help.
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 14, 2004
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              Obviously I have not checked this group in a while. The previous
              answers were all good but there is one thing that was barely touched
              on that might also help.

              We had a similar situation. It didn't get to the BOR level
              fortunately. Dad was not involved with the troop due to job pressure.
              Mom was (is) a definate type A personality ( and a generally
              wonderful person but...). Her son was going to make Eagle and time is
              a wastin'.

              The Scouts in our troop (like most Scouts) know what the score is and
              will not put up with half baked leaders. The Scout in question could
              do almost anything required of him as long as an adult wasn't around.
              If there was an adult around, he had a hard time tying his shoes.

              We (the adults who went out to things other than meetings) have seen
              him do the stuff when the boys didn't know we were around.

              It turns out he was intentionally blowing the tests. My son was SPL
              and told me in confidence. He ( the Scout) did not feel he was ready
              for the advancement his mother was pushing him for but would not
              complain to any of the other adults and could not/would not confront
              his mother. (I can understand the last. Although she is a generally
              nice person, I would be reluctnat to oppose her on anything I didn't
              feel very strongly on. Very posative personality.)

              my $0.02

              Patrick A. Hoage
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