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RE: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders

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  • David K Higginson
    I was in the scout office Friday when this questions was asked. No one was aware of special training for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills Training
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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      I was in the scout office Friday when this questions was asked. No one was
      aware of special training for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills
      Training overview and it talks of Boy Scouts. The Cub Scouts attend Baloo.
      Is anyone aware of the situation for Webelos? Since they are actually cub
      scouts? don't the leaders attend Baloo?

      David K Higginson
      Twin Falls, ID 83301

      >From: Laura R Lyster <bufflo@...>
      >Subject: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders
      >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:15:59 -0600
      >
      >Good day group!
      >Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor
      >Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet? The upc
      >number in the 2004 Cub Scout Camping guidelines refers to the Boy Scout
      >Syllabus.
      >
      >Thanks,
      >In Scouting,
      >Laura
      >bufflo@...

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    • Laura R Lyster
      Good day group! Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet? The upc
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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        Good day group!
        Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor
        Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet? The upc
        number in the 2004 Cub Scout Camping guidelines refers to the Boy Scout
        Syllabus.

        Thanks,
        In Scouting,
        Laura
        bufflo@...
      • Kevin Pate
        ... for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills Training overview and it talks of Boy Scouts. The Cub Scouts attend Baloo. Outdoor Webelos Leaders Training
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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          --- David K Higginson <dkhiggin@...> wrote:
          > I was in the scout office Friday when this questions
          > was asked. No one was aware of special training
          for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills Training
          overview and it talks of Boy Scouts. The Cub Scouts
          attend Baloo.


          Outdoor Webelos Leaders Training
          sometimes called OWL, sometimes called WeLOT for
          Webelos Leader Outdoor Training.

          The syllabus has been around a long time and was part
          of the book that had the former syllabus for Fast
          Start, Cub Leader Basic, Den Leader Coach and OWL all
          in one package, with the quarterly supplemental
          trainings packaged as a later addemdum.

          It is however soon to be replaced, if memory serves,
          by Introduction to Outdoor Webelos Leader Skills, a
          new version that's been in the works for a couple of
          years. They were just about to roll it out when the
          Webelos book changed to incorporate Character
          Connections, so the course (which features outdoor
          activity badges to a degree) went back into design
          mode.



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        • Dave Loomis
          BALOO is more a training course for Pack Camping Chairs Committee members, than the outdoor program for WEBELOS. It is concerned more about selecting and
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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            BALOO is more a training course for Pack Camping "Chairs" Committee
            members, than the outdoor program for WEBELOS. It is concerned more
            about selecting and approving camp sites, than getting the Cub ready
            for camping. It does not, then prepare the adults for WEBELOS camping.

            Cub Scout trainers are frequently using parts of IOLS with the
            WEBELOS adults, even to the point of conducting the WEBELOS program
            along side of an IOLS course, and merging the groups when appropriate,
            remembering that there are a lot of Boy Scout activities that the
            WEBELOS may not do.

            Dave

            David K Higginson wrote:

            > I was in the scout office Friday when this questions was asked. No one was
            > aware of special training for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills
            > Training overview and it talks of Boy Scouts. The Cub Scouts attend Baloo.
            > Is anyone aware of the situation for Webelos? Since they are actually cub
            > scouts? don't the leaders attend Baloo?
            >
            > David K Higginson
            > Twin Falls, ID 83301
            >
            >
            >>From: Laura R Lyster <bufflo@...>
            >>Subject: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders
            >>Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:15:59 -0600
            >>
            >>Good day group!
            >>Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor
            >>Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet? The upc
            >>number in the 2004 Cub Scout Camping guidelines refers to the Boy Scout
            >>Syllabus.
            >>
            >>Thanks,
            >>In Scouting,
            >>Laura
            >>bufflo@...
            >

            To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

            Dave Loomis mailto: dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
            245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
          • Brant Lippincott
            Hi everyone, Laura asked: Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet?
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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              Hi everyone,

              Laura asked:
              Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor
              Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet?

              And David replied:
              I was in the scout office Friday when this questions was asked. No one was
              aware of special training for Webelos.

              and Kevin Noted:
              The syllabus has been around a long time <snip>

              It is however soon to be replaced, if memory serves,
              by Introduction to Outdoor Webelos Leader Skills, a
              new version that's been in the works for a couple of
              years. They were just about to roll it out when the
              Webelos book changed to incorporate Character
              Connections, so the course (which features outdoor
              activity badges to a degree) went back into design
              mode.

              Just adding a couple of comments. From what I have heard, Kevin is correct.
              I've been trying to find out information about this for about two or three
              years, myself.

              I am troubled by David's comments, because to earn the Webelos Leader Award
              (knot) requires that one take outdoor training. Have they been going to the
              BOY scout IOLS training??

              We're running an OWL training in conjunction with our district's IOLS this
              spring. Should be fun. First time in about two years.

              Hopefully, we will see the syllabus real soon. According to my contact, it
              has been piloted.

              For the Boys,
              Brant
            • Sean Scott
              Dave wrote: It (BALOO) is concerned more about selecting and approving camp sites, than getting the Cub ready for camping. Dave, I d disagree
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 22, 2004
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                Dave wrote: <snip> It (BALOO) is concerned more about selecting and
                approving camp sites, than getting the Cub ready for camping. <snip>

                Dave, I'd disagree with that statement. Local councils are responsible for
                approving campsites for Pack Overnight Camping; BALOO instructs leaders that
                they must have their Pack Overnighter at an approved location, but doesn't
                go into the process of approving sites. BALOO is also all about planning a
                successful and positive introduction to camping for Cubs, which includes
                preparing both the boys and their parents for the outdoors, including
                equipment selection. We certainly don't want a family to be inadequately
                prepared for the outdoors, resulting in a bad camping experience that causes
                them to shy away from future outdoor events! Proper preparation is the best
                way to prevent that!

                YiS,
                Sean
              • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                ... From: Sean Scott [mailto:sscott@argentive.com] Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders Dave wrote: It (BALOO) is
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Sean Scott [mailto:sscott@...]
                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders


                  Dave wrote: <snip> It (BALOO) is concerned more about selecting and
                  approving camp sites, than getting the Cub ready for camping. <snip>

                  Dave, I'd disagree with that statement. Local councils are responsible for
                  approving campsites for Pack Overnight Camping; BALOO instructs leaders that
                  they must have their Pack Overnighter at an approved location, but doesn't
                  go into the process of approving sites.



                  Actually an objestive in the planning section is that the participants
                  understand
                  the approval process. Somewhere is the form the council is supposed to use,
                  perhaps in the Appendices. (I just did this Saturday for at least the 10th
                  time.)
                  I explain the proceedure and ask if there are questions, but this usually
                  does not
                  take a long time.
                  Sean's comments are 'right-on'. To add to this I would say that the WEBELOS
                  leader
                  should have attended BALOO, but the regular camping 'chairman' does not need
                  'OWL/WELOT'.

                  Pete M.



                  BALOO is also all about planning a
                  successful and positive introduction to camping for Cubs, which includes
                  preparing both the boys and their parents for the outdoors, including
                  equipment selection. We certainly don't want a family to be inadequately
                  prepared for the outdoors, resulting in a bad camping experience that causes
                  them to shy away from future outdoor events! Proper preparation is the best
                  way to prevent that!

                  YiS,
                  Sean








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Fred Goodwin, CMA
                  ... Laura, you ve gotten several good responses already. Please allow me to add a few comments: (1) Although Webelos Leaders can take Introduction to Outdoor
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                    > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:15:59 -0600
                    > From: Laura R Lyster <bufflo@...>
                    >
                    > Does anyone know about the release of the syllabus for the Outdoor
                    > Training Skills for Webelos Leaders? Has it been released yet? The
                    > upc number in the 2004 Cub Scout Camping guidelines refers to the Boy
                    > Scout Syllabus.

                    Laura, you've gotten several good responses already. Please allow me
                    to add a few comments:

                    (1) Although Webelos Leaders can take Introduction to Outdoor Leader
                    Skills (IOLS), this is actually a Boy Scout leader course. Webelos Den
                    Leaders (WDLs) are encouraged to take Scoutmaster courses (of which
                    IOLS is a part) as part of bridging into a Troop with their boys. But
                    IOLS is not a substitute for Webelos Leader Outdoor Training (allow me
                    to call it WLOT, although it goes by various names).

                    (2) Basic Adult Leader Outdoor Orientation (BALOO) is not a substitute
                    for WLOT. BALOO is mandatory training to lead a Pack overnighter.
                    WLOT is recommended, but not required, in order for a WDL to take his
                    or her Webelos den on a campout.

                    (3) WLOT is, however, required, in order to earn the Webelos Leader
                    Training Award ("knot"). In the absence of an actual WLOT course, some
                    Councils may have adopted a local policy allowing WDLs to substitute
                    IOLS or BALOO for WLOT in order to earn the knot, but (IMHO) this is
                    not an optimal solution.

                    (4) It is true that WLOT is undergoing some form of re-write, but
                    that's been the case for at least two years. Until the re-write is
                    completed, the last WLOT syllabus is still authorized (it was in the
                    old Cub Scout Basic Leader Training book). If your Council is not
                    offering WLOT under the old syllabus, there is simply no excuse for it
                    -- ask them why!

                    Sorry for the sermon -- but this has been a sore point for me for some
                    time. Councils that have been waiting on the re-write may have cost
                    many WDLs an opportunity to earn their knot; but there is no reason to
                    withhold training based on the old (and still currently authorized)
                    syllabus.

                    Get your Council Training Committee to explain why they are waiting!

                    Fred Goodwin
                    Keystone District Training Team
                    Alamo Area Council
                  • David K Higginson
                    I checked with our local Council Exec on this and he has no idea what you are talking about. Is this a local program? Could you emal me the information off
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                      I checked with our local Council Exec on this and he has no idea what you
                      are talking about. Is this a local program? Could you emal me the
                      information off list? Is there a BSA order number for this item?

                      David K Higginson
                      Twin Falls, ID

                      >From: Kevin Pate <kevinpate@...>
                      >Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Outdoor Training Skills for Webelos Leaders
                      >Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:41:29 -0800 (PST)
                      >
                      >--- David K Higginson <dkhiggin@...> wrote:
                      > > I was in the scout office Friday when this questions
                      > > was asked. No one was aware of special training
                      >for Webelos. We reviewed the Outdoor Skills Training
                      >overview and it talks of Boy Scouts. The Cub Scouts
                      >attend Baloo.
                      >
                      >
                      >Outdoor Webelos Leaders Training
                      >sometimes called OWL, sometimes called WeLOT for
                      >Webelos Leader Outdoor Training.
                      >
                      >The syllabus has been around a long time and was part
                      >of the book that had the former syllabus for Fast
                      >Start, Cub Leader Basic, Den Leader Coach and OWL all
                      >in one package, with the quarterly supplemental
                      >trainings packaged as a later addemdum.
                      >
                      >It is however soon to be replaced, if memory serves,
                      >by Introduction to Outdoor Webelos Leader Skills, a
                      >new version that's been in the works for a couple of
                      >years. They were just about to roll it out when the
                      >Webelos book changed to incorporate Character
                      >Connections, so the course (which features outdoor
                      >activity badges to a degree) went back into design
                      >mode.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >__________________________________
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                      >Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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                    • wbrown@arkie.net
                      ... With all due respect to your Council Exec, the guidance you have received from this list seems to have been pretty accurate. In the database
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                        --- "David K Higginson" wrote:

                        > I checked with our local Council Exec on this and he has no idea
                        > what you are talking about. Is this a local program? Could you
                        > emal me the information off list? Is there a BSA order number for
                        > this item?

                        With all due respect to your Council Exec, the guidance you have
                        received from this list seems to have been pretty accurate. In the
                        database (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scouter_t/database) area of
                        this list you will find a list of BSA syllabuses (or at least most of
                        them)... As far as I know, the "Webelos Den Leader Outdoor Training"
                        course (sometimes referred to as WLOT or OWL) is the ONLY part of
                        the "old" Cub Scout Basic Leader Training syllabus (BSA Part #34700)
                        that has not already been rewritten and released as part of the new
                        NLE / Position Specific Training series. Unfortunately, there is a
                        pretty good chance that this syllabus may NOT be available from
                        national using that number since more than 80% of it is obsolete.

                        If I were in your situation, I would suggest that my SE check out the
                        requirements for the Webelos leader knot. :)

                        http://www.scouting.org/forms/34169/52.pdf

                        Hope this helps!
                      • Meyers, E. Steve
                        http://www.scouting.org/forms/34169/52.pdf That is the official progress record for Webelos Den Leader Training award. It requires Complete outdoor training
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                          http://www.scouting.org/forms/34169/52.pdf

                          That is the official progress record for Webelos Den Leader Training
                          award.
                          It requires "Complete outdoor training for Webelos den leaders."

                          May it be up to each council to interpret this requirement based on
                          availability of BSA materials?

                          If you still have old photocopies of portions of an obsolete manual,
                          then it would be easier to conduct the training!
                          But is there anything that says that is the correct type of training to
                          fulfill the requirement?
                          Is it the ONLY way to complete the requirement?

                          Steve Meyers
                        • Teresa Hall
                          Steve, the wording is vague because the name will change when the new Webelos Outdoor Leader Training comes out. I believe the new name is to be Outdoor
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                            Steve, the wording is vague because the name will change when the new
                            Webelos Outdoor Leader Training comes out. I believe the new name is
                            to be "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders."

                            For what is appropriate, I refer you and your SE to the September 8,
                            2001 edition of Scouting Magazine, also available online at
                            www.scoutingmagazine.org:

                            NO CHANGES IN WEBELOS LEADER OUTDOOR TRAINING
                            Release of new Basic Leader Training materials has resulted in some
                            confusion regarding the status of Webelos Leader Outdoor Training.

                            There are no changes in Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. The course
                            outline is in the publication Cub Scout Leader Training (BSA No.
                            34700).

                            Webelos Leader Outdoor Training is supplemental training and is not
                            required for a Webelos leader to be considered "trained." It is,
                            however, a requirement for earning the Webelos Den Leader Award.

                            **********************************
                            Since that time a new course has been developed, piloted by some on
                            this list, brought back for revision to parallel the new Webelos
                            Book. This process has been documented in the professional
                            publications, of which I have a page copied at home. The strong rumor
                            is that this training should roll out this spring... but until then,
                            the old training is the official training. If we don't have a new
                            syllabus in hand by then, I'll be leading a course from the old on on
                            May 1, 2004. Many on the list have been teaching it all along.

                            Hope this gives you the documentation you need.

                            Yours in Scouting.
                            Teresa Hall
                            Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                            Vulcan District
                            Greater AL Council
                          • Jan Badertscher
                            Our District has found that it is a wise use of training resources to invite the Webelos leaders to participate with the Boy Scout and Varsity leaders in the
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 23, 2004
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                              Our District has found that it is a wise use of training resources to invite the Webelos leaders to participate with the Boy Scout and Varsity leaders in the outdoor leader training. Many of the skills are the same and we utilize trainers from all three programs. We have also found that Webelos leaders quite often move into the Boy Scout and Varsity programs over time so consolidation is a very logical step. I used to coordinate the old WLOT for many years and I think I may still have a copy somewhere. Its format is very similar to what was rolled out as the current Outdoor Leader Skills Training. Best of all, our Webelos leaders learn the outdoor skills and the resources available to them and they can complete their requirements for the Webelos Leader knot.

                              With regards,

                              Jan Badertscher
                              District Program Chairman
                              I used to be a Buffalo

                              >>> meyerses@... 02/23/04 12:31PM >>>

                              http://www.scouting.org/forms/34169/52.pdf

                              That is the official progress record for Webelos Den Leader Training
                              award.
                              It requires "Complete outdoor training for Webelos den leaders."

                              May it be up to each council to interpret this requirement based on
                              availability of BSA materials?

                              If you still have old photocopies of portions of an obsolete manual,
                              then it would be easier to conduct the training!
                              But is there anything that says that is the correct type of training to
                              fulfill the requirement?
                              Is it the ONLY way to complete the requirement?

                              Steve Meyers



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