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Re: BALOO Training

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  • Keith Tilley
    Hank Voegtle asked about combining BALOO with Webelos Leader Outdoor Training. If I were you, Hank, I would ask the Council Training Chair to intervene. There
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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      Hank Voegtle asked about combining BALOO with Webelos Leader Outdoor
      Training.

      If I were you, Hank, I would ask the Council Training Chair to intervene.
      There are a lot of reasons why these two courses should not be combined,
      including the following:

      1. They serve different audiences. BALOO is designed for inexperienced
      campers who may or may not be Den Leaders, while WLOT is designed for
      Webelos Den Leaders.

      2. They teach different skills. BALOO helps leaders understand the basics
      of planning a Pack camping activity, while WLOT teaches how to conduct the
      outdoor portion of the Webelos program, including Activity Badge
      instruction.

      3. Due to the progressive, age-appropriate nature of the Cub Scout program,
      Webelos Scouts are allowed to do things that younger Cub Scouts are not. As
      a result, WLOT will explain how to do something that BALOO says you can't
      do. Taking these two courses at the same time will be very confusing,
      especially for a new leader.

      4. The replacement for WLOT, "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den
      Leaders", is designed to run either standalone or in conjunction with the
      Boy Scout "Outdoor Leader Skills" course. If combining BALOO and WLOT is
      confusing, just imagine how your new leaders will feel if they're exposed to
      OLS, WLOT, and BALOO all at the same time!

      I hope this helps!

      Keith Tilley
      Council Cub Scout Training Chairman
      Hudson Valley Council, NY
    • Brant Lippincott
      Hank & Others, Greetings all... We teach BALOO basically according to the syllabus. We have found that we can consolidate a little bit and run the course from
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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        Hank & Others,

        Greetings all...

        We teach BALOO basically according to the syllabus.
        We have found that we can consolidate a little bit and
        run the course from about 8 to 2 or 2:30. We
        integrate some of the teaching points with the doing,
        so it flows really well and we get done a bit quicker.

        I have yet to see the sylabus for "Outdoor Leader
        Skills for Webelos Den Leaders", so if anyone has a
        soft copy, I would love to see it. I've encountered
        resistance from our DE on teaching the OLD course. He
        believes that it has been pulled and replaced with
        IOLS. I have not been successful in getting the
        Webelos leaders to go to that course (maybe 10 in the
        last two years).

        For the Boys,
        Brant Lippincott
        Cub Training Chair
        Great Plains District
        Circle 10 Council
        Plano, TX
      • Lady T
        Thank you, I too, am looking for the new syllabus for Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders. Has it been released yet? Anyone have the stock number
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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          Thank you, I too, am looking for the new syllabus for Outdoor Leader
          Skills for Webelos Den Leaders. Has it been released yet? Anyone
          have the stock number for ordering it?


          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Brant Lippincott <brant@l...> wrote:
          > Hank & Others,
          >
          > Greetings all...
          >
          > We teach BALOO basically according to the syllabus.
          > We have found that we can consolidate a little bit and
          > run the course from about 8 to 2 or 2:30. We
          > integrate some of the teaching points with the doing,
          > so it flows really well and we get done a bit quicker.
          >
          > I have yet to see the sylabus for "Outdoor Leader
          > Skills for Webelos Den Leaders", so if anyone has a
          > soft copy, I would love to see it. I've encountered
          > resistance from our DE on teaching the OLD course. He
          > believes that it has been pulled and replaced with
          > IOLS. I have not been successful in getting the
          > Webelos leaders to go to that course (maybe 10 in the
          > last two years).
          >
          > For the Boys,
          > Brant Lippincott
          > Cub Training Chair
          > Great Plains District
          > Circle 10 Council
          > Plano, TX
        • David Gross
          ... Does your area have the oft-reported-but-never-seen-by-me new WLOT syllabus? The reason I ask is that the old one did not have two nights of camping (it
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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            > From: Hank Voegtle <pack890cm@...>
            > Subject: BALOO Training
            >
            > [BALOO] ... integrated into the Outdoor Webelos
            > Course, a program that includes two nights of
            > camping. Showing up for one day is not an option.

            Does your area have the
            oft-reported-but-never-seen-by-me new WLOT syllabus?
            The reason I ask is that the old one did not have two
            nights of camping (it had two formats, one night or
            none). Or did you mean that they are doing BALOO,
            WLOT, and IOLS (introduction to outdoor leadership
            skills) as a combined course. ILOS is typically done
            with two nights.

            I've run outdoor training weekends with all of these
            in parallel, thus making good use of resources like
            staff, materials, events, but we always treated them
            as separate courses with separate objectives.

            > Does anyone have thoughts on the matter?

            Yes. I think that they are dead wrong to do this.
            I've been the BALOO course instructor 3 times, and you
            are completely correct -- the idea is that the
            participant may have NO outdoor experience. A prime
            course objective is to get them set up to acquire the
            camping equipment, so having the camp is counter
            productive.

            > Does anyone think I ought to contact the Council
            > Executive or Council Training Chair?

            Hard to say, as I don't know your council. I'd be
            comfortable talking to my DE & district training
            chair, and then the council folks as needed. But the
            only response I'd expect here is: "gosh, can you
            direct the course" :-)

            > Am I being too much of a curmudgeon about this?

            No. I don't think you should be angry or grumpy about
            it. I suspect that these folks are trying to
            economize on resources (like staff), and don't realize
            how they are violating the point of the course. I
            think you can & should help them understand.

            > Am I wrong to think that BALOO is one course that
            > really ought to be taught according to the syllabus?

            Yes, you are wrong. ALL of the courses should be
            taught by the syllabus (see, I am the curmudeon :-).

            YiS,

            David


            =====
            David Gross
            SA-TG SR-556

            SM T-142, UC
            AOL, Eagle/3, OA/B, SB
            "I used to be a fox, .."

            Registered in, but not speaking for, the Greater Alabama Council

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          • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
            Comment on the point I left below - I would say that BALOO is designed for basics and planning. It is not just for inexperienced campers, experienced campers
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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              Comment on the point I left below - I would say that BALOO is
              designed for basics and planning. It is not just for inexperienced
              campers, experienced campers with their eyes and ears opened
              will learn things that they never took into consideration. In
              all the BALOO's I've served on staff there are always comments from
              'experienced' campers that they learned a lot more than they thought
              they would. I usually pick up something from the participants each
              time through.

              Pete Mullaney

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Keith Tilley [mailto:redcoat@...]
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO Training


              Hank Voegtle asked about combining BALOO with Webelos Leader Outdoor
              Training.

              1. They serve different audiences. BALOO is designed for inexperienced
              campers who may or may not be Den Leaders, while WLOT is designed for
              Webelos Den Leaders.





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lloyd Solis
              ... From everything I ve learned and heard, BALOO is a stand-alone course. It is NOT to be mixed or incorporated into any other sessions. It does not
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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                Hank Voegtle wrote:

                >Tonight was the district program kick-off for 2003-4. In looking over the
                >training schedule, I did not see BALOO as a course. As the course director
                >for the district's first course in 2001, I was a little concerned about
                >this. When I asked about it, I was told that it would be integrated into
                >the Outdoor Webelos Course, a program that includes two nights of camping.
                >Showing up for one day is not an option. The one-day course "may" be
                >offered in the spring.
                >
                >Having been the course director for our district's first course, I was more
                >than shocked by the idea that BALOO, an introductory course that
                >emphasizes "soft" camping will offered in this format. I'm tempted to steer
                >my pack leaders to districts were there is a one day course or offering it
                >in my pack as a one day course. Does anyone have thoughts on the matter?
                >Does anyone think I ought to contact the Council Executive or Council
                >Training Chair? Am I being too much of a curmudgeon about this? Am I wrong
                >to think that BALOO is one course that really ought to be taught according
                >to the syllabus?
                >
                >Thanks in advance.
                >
                >
                >Yours in Scouting,
                >
                >Hank Voegtle--Eagle Scout-Class of '68
                >I used to be a Fox (SR-Y2K-X2)
                >Cubmaster, Pack 890, Dallas, Texas
                >
                >
                >
                From everything I've learned and heard, BALOO is a stand-alone course.
                It is NOT to be 'mixed' or incorporated into any other sessions. It
                does not include an overnight experience.

                Beyond that, I think that 'expanding the scout leader's training
                experiences is not a bad idea. We did a 'double course' over a year ago
                that was BALOO from 8-5 and then WLOT till the next day about noon.
                There were about half of the BALOO participants that stayed over. The
                problem was that the trainers were so exhausted after about 30 hours
                since a large number of the participants (female, no less) stayed up
                partying till after 3AM.

                You might want to ask a few more questions to see what's on their
                agenda. Perhaps their BALOO will be sandwiched between other sessions.

                Lloyd
              • John D. Halter
                Our district has conducted the BALOO/WOLT training this way for the last two years. Like yours, the BALOO participants were only there from 8-5, though after
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 6, 2003
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                  Our district has conducted the BALOO/WOLT training this way for the last
                  two years. Like yours, the BALOO participants were only there from 8-5,
                  though after seeing how much fun the others were having, several have wanted
                  to stay. The leaders in our district have appreciated the flexibility in
                  the way we have offered the course. We don't limit our recruitment to just
                  Webelos leaders, we encourage Wolf & Bear leaders & welcome parents and
                  leaders from all ranks.
                  Regarding the original post, I could not imagine requiring BALOO
                  participants to stay overnight. Like others have said, I would talk with
                  the person organizing the event and find out exactly what they have planned.

                  Thank you,

                  John Halter
                  Cubmaster
                  Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                  www.pack230.com
                  Assistant Scoutmaster
                  Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                  Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                  ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Lloyd Solis" <paperclp@...>
                  To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 15:44
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] BALOO Training


                  >
                  > Beyond that, I think that 'expanding the scout leader's training
                  > experiences is not a bad idea. We did a 'double course' over a year ago
                  > that was BALOO from 8-5 and then WLOT till the next day about noon.
                  > There were about half of the BALOO participants that stayed over.
                • Keith Tilley
                  The Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders syllabus should be released in the next several weeks. As you ve all noticed, it was significantly
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 7, 2003
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                    The "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders" syllabus should be
                    released in the next several weeks. As you've all noticed, it was
                    significantly delayed, in large part because changes to the Webelos program
                    made it obsolete between the time development was finished and the time it
                    was supposed to be released.

                    In the meantime, if you can't wait for the new one, keep using the Webelos
                    Leader Outdoor Training syllabus from the old Cub Scout Basic Training
                    library.

                    Keith Tilley
                    Cub Scout Training Chairman
                    Hudson Valley Council, NY
                  • Lloyd Solis
                    ... I was under the impression that any changes in webelos was minor . It s going to be interesting to see the new handbook to see if there is more than
                    Message 9 of 16 , Aug 7, 2003
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                      Keith Tilley wrote:

                      >The "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders" syllabus should be
                      >released in the next several weeks. As you've all noticed, it was
                      >significantly delayed, in large part because changes to the Webelos program
                      >made it obsolete between the time development was finished and the time it
                      >was supposed to be released.
                      >
                      >In the meantime, if you can't wait for the new one, keep using the Webelos
                      >Leader Outdoor Training syllabus from the old Cub Scout Basic Training
                      >library.
                      >
                      >Keith Tilley
                      >Cub Scout Training Chairman
                      >Hudson Valley Council, NY
                      >
                      >Hmmm,
                      >
                      I was under the impression that any changes in webelos was 'minor' .
                      It's going to be interesting to see the new handbook to see if there is
                      more than character connection additions.

                      Thanks,

                      Lloyd

                      >
                      >
                    • Deborah A. Krieger
                      With the new Webelos badge...Earning the Webelos badge requirement 3 must be changed. Because the new Webelos badge is only to be worn on the Tan shirt we may
                      Message 10 of 16 , Aug 7, 2003
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                        With the new Webelos badge...Earning the Webelos badge requirement 3
                        must be changed. Because the new Webelos badge is only to be worn on
                        the Tan shirt we may see the Blue shirt go away...The new Webelos hat of
                        course is not designed for the activity badges to be pinned to it as was
                        the previous hat...

                        Deb :)


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Lloyd Solis [mailto:paperclp@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:20 AM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO Training



                        Keith Tilley wrote:

                        >The "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders" syllabus should be
                        >released in the next several weeks. As you've all noticed, it was
                        >significantly delayed, in large part because changes to the Webelos
                        program
                        >made it obsolete between the time development was finished and the time
                        it
                        >was supposed to be released.
                        >
                        >In the meantime, if you can't wait for the new one, keep using the
                        Webelos
                        >Leader Outdoor Training syllabus from the old Cub Scout Basic Training
                        >library.
                        >
                        >Keith Tilley
                        >Cub Scout Training Chairman
                        >Hudson Valley Council, NY
                        >
                        >Hmmm,
                        >
                        I was under the impression that any changes in webelos was 'minor' .
                        It's going to be interesting to see the new handbook to see if there is
                        more than character connection additions.

                        Thanks,

                        Lloyd

                        >
                        >





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                      • Jim
                        According to the #2 person in the Cub Scout Division, the launch of Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders has been pushed back to mid-to-late November.
                        Message 11 of 16 , Aug 7, 2003
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                          According to the #2 person in the Cub Scout Division, the launch of
                          "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders" has been pushed back to
                          mid-to-late November. Just thought you'd like to know.
                          YiS,
                          Jim Ball
                          Council Training Chairman
                          Central Florida Council

                          Keith Tilley wrote:

                          >The "Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders" syllabus should be
                          >released in the next several weeks. As you've all noticed, it was
                          >significantly delayed, in large part because changes to the Webelos program
                          >made it obsolete between the time development was finished and the time it
                          >was supposed to be released.
                          >
                          >In the meantime, if you can't wait for the new one, keep using the Webelos
                          >Leader Outdoor Training syllabus from the old Cub Scout Basic Training
                          >library.
                          >
                          >Keith Tilley
                          >Cub Scout Training Chairman
                          >Hudson Valley Council, NY
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Richard Damon
                          First note that there is a new book due out soon (if its not already out) which may change the requirements (part of the character connection revision). But
                          Message 12 of 16 , Aug 7, 2003
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                            First note that there is a new book due out soon (if its not already out)
                            which may change the requirements (part of the character connection
                            revision). But according to the latest Uniform guide (2002-2004) the
                            restriction on which shirt which badges can be worn on has been removed. The
                            oval badge does not say it can only be worn on the tan uniform, so it may be
                            worn on the blue (although it is a good time to move the boy to tan if he
                            isn't already).

                            The guide does not have the new cap, but I agree that without the protection
                            flap it should not be used for the pins (I never recommended it anyway as
                            the boys lose the caps too easily).

                            Richard Damon
                            --
                            rbrdamon@... (Home)
                            rdamon@... (Work)
                            Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                            Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                            Boston Minuteman Council
                            I used to be a fox... (NE-I-209)
                          • Keith Tilley
                            Lloyd Solis wrote: I was under the impression that any changes in webelos was minor . There are a lot of changes in the new Webelos book. The
                            Message 13 of 16 , Aug 8, 2003
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                              Lloyd Solis wrote: "I was under the impression that any changes in webelos
                              was 'minor' ."

                              There are a lot of changes in the new Webelos book. The requirements for
                              the Webelos rank, Arrow of Light, and almost every activity badge have been
                              modified, and Character Connections is only one reason. The new "Outdoor
                              Leader Skills for Webelos Den Leaders" course also had to accommodate
                              changes in camping policy, the Guide to Safe Scouting, and age-appropriate
                              "who can do what" policies that have occurred last year.

                              Keith Tilley
                              Hudson Valley Council, NY
                            • John D. Halter
                              In the 2003-2005 Insignia Guide, they show the oval badge on the tan shirt and the diamond for the blue or tan shirt . It doesn t mention it in the text, but
                              Message 14 of 16 , Aug 8, 2003
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                                In the 2003-2005 Insignia Guide, they show the oval badge on the tan shirt
                                and the diamond for the "blue or tan shirt". It doesn't mention it in the
                                text, but the picture would lead me to believe that the oval badge is only
                                intended for the tan shirt.

                                Thank you,

                                John Halter
                                Cubmaster
                                Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                                www.pack230.com
                                Assistant Scoutmaster
                                Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                                Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                                ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442

                                ----- Original Message -----

                                Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 00:14
                                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO Training


                                >But according to the latest Uniform guide (2002-2004) the
                                > restriction on which shirt which badges can be worn on has been removed.
                                The
                                > oval badge does not say it can only be worn on the tan uniform, so it may
                                be
                                > worn on the blue (although it is a good time to move the boy to tan if he
                                > isn't already).
                                >
                              • Kris Swank
                                My District runs IOLS and OWL (using the old Syllabus) together and the learners get dual credit for attending. Much of it is so similar that where it diverges
                                Message 15 of 16 , Sep 9, 2004
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                                  My District runs IOLS and OWL (using the old Syllabus) together and the
                                  learners get dual credit for attending. Much of it is so similar that
                                  where it diverges we make a big point of the differences. We also do
                                  quite a bit on the Webelos Outdoor group of Badges. The point of
                                  combining was that many of the Dens do all their camping requirements
                                  with a BS Troop and it would be helpful for the SM/ASM to have a
                                  refresher course of Webelos age level activities. From experience I know
                                  how a camp out with a Troop turned off a number of Webelos to the extent
                                  they quit the next Den Meeting AND My husband...long long ago....had a
                                  bad experience on a Webelos/Troop camp and he never went tinto a Troop
                                  and held a grudge against Scouting until about 2000 when I got him to
                                  training and Wood Badge.
                                  YIS,
                                  KRis Swank
                                  Okee Tuklo District Training Chair
                                  ETAC Webmaster
                                  East Texas Area Council
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