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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song

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  • KAREN & RICK RAMBO
    I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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      I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or not.

      We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly, squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.

      Rick
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dan Kurtenbach
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


      Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
      -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
      morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
      we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
      virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
      inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

      The problem is that people affected by things that other people
      unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
      they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
      what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
      and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
      Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
      feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
      something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
      saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
      is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
      front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
      embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
      happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
      feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
      conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

      Hope that explains my thinking on this.

      Dan Kurtenbach
      Fairfax, VA

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    • John D. Halter
      I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings Here
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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        I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is
        sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings
        "Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in
        the wilderness, Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for {Late
        person} to come". Does anyone else do this?
        BTW...I'm usually the "late person", so I've heard it sung to me a bunch.
        :- )

        Thank you,

        John Halter
        Cubmaster
        Pack 230 Apopka Florida
        www.pack230.com
        Assistant Scoutmaster
        Troop 936 Longwood Florida
        Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
        ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "KAREN & RICK RAMBO" <krrambo@...>
        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 21:30
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


        > I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
        important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
        someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
        if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
        not.
        >
        > We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly,
        squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered
        the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down
        to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the
        three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be
        ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it
        is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to
        someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.
        >
        > Rick
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Dan Kurtenbach
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song
        >
        >
        > Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking
        about
        > -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is
        not a
        > morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore
        when
        > we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling
        his
        > virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
        > inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.
        >
        > The problem is that people affected by things that other people
        > unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on
        how
        > they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up
        characterizing
        > what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual
        facts,
        > and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the
        "offender."
        > Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because
        they
        > feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
        > something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I
        was
        > saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the
        conclusion
        > is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking
        in
        > front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
        > embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful."
        What
        > happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
        > feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
        > conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."
        >
        > Hope that explains my thinking on this.
        >
        > Dan Kurtenbach
        > Fairfax, VA
        >
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        >
        >
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        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
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      • Dave Loomis
        Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements + way to die ,
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 3, 2003
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          Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
          song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
          die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
          http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html

          Dave


          To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

          Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
          245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
          Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
        • Wendell Brown
          ... Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn t related to training. Wendell Brown Moderator Scouter_T
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
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            On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:08:02 -0400, Dave Loomis wrote:

            > Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
            >song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
            >die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
            > http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html
            >


            Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn't
            related to training.

            Wendell Brown
            Moderator Scouter_T
          • Debbie Beer
            I will have to say I totally agree with this statement. As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of interruptions and impromptu situations.
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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              I will have to say I totally agree with this statement.

              As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of
              interruptions and impromptu situations. I can understand that someone who
              is very shy might have a problem with the interruption. I would also expect
              an experienced scouter to take that person by the hand and lead them right
              back up on stage and help them finish what they started. The experience
              would be a great confidence builder for all involved at that point.

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
              To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


              > This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a
              > fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment
              > after, were the amazing Koshare Indian Dancers. At the ceremony, the
              > dancers came out and danced around the new Eagle. At one of the dances
              > after the ceremony, they asked the new Eagle to come on out and
              participate
              > in the dance, an idea which the audience supported, and which the did (and
              > did very well). Both times, the audience was delighted, but the Scout
              > seemed to be somewhat embarrassed. I would really have some difficulty
              > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have difficulty
              > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise someone
              with
              > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a spirit of
              > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
              > embarrass.
              >
              > Dan Kurtenbach
              > Fairfax, VA
              >
              >
              >
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            • Debbie Beer
              I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want to sing
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick
                out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want
                to sing the song we do not force them to sing the song.

                I have had the tea pot song work in two different ways. When they were very
                young they tried harder to keep track of what they brought to camp.
                However, when they got older they planted belongings so that they could get
                up and sing the tea pot song.

                I have also had kids volunteer to stand up with the singer and end up
                including the whole group in the song. They think of it as a tradition. In
                fact they feel like something is missing if they go through a whole camp out
                with out singing the song. I guess hazing is in how you present the
                program. The response I have had with the kids is definitely not a hazing,
                but a fellowship with my scouts.

                Just my two cents worth.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:11 PM
                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
                > <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
                > I would really have some difficulty
                > > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
                > difficulty
                > > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
                > someone with
                > > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
                > spirit of
                > > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                > > embarrass.
                >
                > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
                > at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
                > with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
                > person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them
                >
                > bill
                >
                >
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
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                >
                >
                >
              • Dan Kurtenbach
                Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders any
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                  Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                  the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders
                  any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                  non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                  comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                  counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                  leader?

                  Dan Kurtenbach
                  Fairfax, VA
                • Margaret Eacker
                  A lot of that is covered in TDC. Everyone is a trainer in one way or another. I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as to be
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                    A lot of that is covered in TDC.
                    Everyone is a "trainer" in one way or another.
                    I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as
                    to be more inviting to a broader group - oh well I guess it is up to
                    all of us to recommend that everyone attend and if you can talk you
                    council onto it invite the SPL's and troop instructors.

                    YiS

                    Margaret Eacker
                    Double Buffalo


                    On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 09:55 AM, Dan Kurtenbach wrote:

                    > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside
                    > from
                    > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                    > leaders
                    > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                    > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                    > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                    > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being
                    > a
                    > leader?
                    >
                    > Dan Kurtenbach
                    > Fairfax, VA
                    >
                    <image.tiff>
                    >
                    >
                    > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                    >   scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                    >
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                    Brenda, In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT s I ll tell you that I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have seen many
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                      Brenda,
                      In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT's I'll tell you that
                      I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have
                      seen many people get bored with announcers who drone on and on.
                      One of the versions goes: "Make the announcements short and sweet"
                      which is something that any announcer should pay attention to. Give
                      the facts (not a biography), have a flyer, and answer short questions
                      - do longer discussions 'off-line'. If your announcers do this I doubt
                      the people will get bored, even if they have just sung "announcements
                      are boring".
                      If someone broke into the song in the middle of an announcement I
                      would consider that to be rude. The few times I've used it have always
                      been as a prelude to announcements.

                      Pete M.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Bren909 [mailto:Bren216@...]
                      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:21 AM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                      Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                      certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

                      I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
                      you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
                      announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
                      information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
                      the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
                      just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
                      expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
                      group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
                      printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
                      to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
                      without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
                      have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

                      Brenda



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                    • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                      Rick, How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your onedarknight page? The following two lines are in the song: My cousin Mort, He s sawed
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                        Rick,
                        How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your
                        'onedarknight' page?
                        The following two lines are in the song: "My cousin Mort, He's sawed off
                        and short,
                        He measures just four foot two,". Do you think this could be embarrassing
                        to a
                        vertically challenged boy, even if only one person turns around and stares
                        at him when
                        this verse is sung? I know your intent is not to offend anyone with these
                        lines but it could
                        happen. I'd be much more concerned if you included songs with the intention
                        to offend
                        certain people.

                        Pete Mullaney

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: KAREN & RICK RAMBO [mailto:krrambo@...]
                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:30 PM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                        I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                        important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                        someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                        if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                        not.

                        <snip>
                        Rick




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Laura Kilby
                        We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to include as many as possible, especially the older youth. Laura Santa Fe Trail,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                          We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to
                          include as many as possible, especially the older youth.

                          Laura
                          Santa Fe Trail, District Training Chair
                          Quivira Council, Kansas
                        • Debbie Beer
                          I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers. I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another troop
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                            I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers.
                            I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another
                            troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                            presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for crew
                            advancement, he was unable to speak. After talking to the scout and the
                            parents, I found out that the troop that this boy came from did not prepare
                            him for public speaking. They did not do skits, songs, or troop
                            presentations. His boards of review were a set of questions that were
                            basically set by the scoutmaster. This scout is a senior patrol leader and
                            a life scout. It makes you wonder about the quality of the leadership that
                            let him get this far without being able to prepare for a simple board of
                            review, or a simple demonstration in front of his own troop.

                            I feel so sorry for this scout when he tries to go for a job interview or
                            any other type of engagement that would require him to speak in front of
                            others. I feel that feel that all this nonsense we do in scouting like
                            songs, skits, announcements really does help the scouts and the leaders
                            become better public speakers. It really does have a purpose and should not
                            end when a boy or a leader advances from cubscouting to the next level.

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                            To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:55 AM
                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)


                            > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                            > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                            leaders
                            > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                            > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                            > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                            > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                            > leader?
                            >
                            > Dan Kurtenbach
                            > Fairfax, VA
                            >
                            >
                            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Bill Nelson
                            ... speakers. ... another ... crew ... Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching. But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should stress
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                              > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                              speakers.
                              > I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in
                              another
                              > troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                              > presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for
                              crew
                              > advancement, he was unable to speak.

                              Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching.

                              But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should
                              stress with the Scouts. That was one reason for the Communications
                              merit badge.

                              Bill
                            • Michael Brown
                              ... speakers. Being a very shy person, I ve always credited the fact that I was involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop as a PL
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                speakers.

                                Being a very shy person, I've always credited the fact that I was
                                involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop
                                as a PL and later SPL, as well as an English teacher in high school
                                who felt the best way to learn to give speeches was to do a lot of
                                them with my ability to get up in front of a group and speak.

                                For most people, they have to go thru Dale Carnegie or Toastmasters
                                to get the same benefits I got as a youth... (and I've gone thru
                                Dale Carnegie and have joined Toastmasters).

                                Michael Brown
                                SW Florida Council
                              • Bill Nelson
                                I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of never lifting his head to talk
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                  I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking
                                  problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of
                                  never lifting his head to talk to someone (constantly talking to the
                                  floor instead of the person). He ended up overcoming his speaking
                                  problems, mostly, and becoming, after a few years, one of our better
                                  SPLs.

                                  (It's nice when you have a success story)

                                  Bill
                                • Ken Todd
                                  Debbie, Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important skill that people need in business and other organizations, like Scouting. I
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 10, 2003
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                                    Debbie,

                                    Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important
                                    skill that people need in business and other organizations, like
                                    Scouting. I strongly agree that we need to encourage our youth to take
                                    every opportunity to become comfortable speaking in front of other
                                    people.

                                    In our Troop, we rotate the responsibility of Master of Ceremonies at
                                    our quarterly Court of Honor to give different youth the opportunity to
                                    be up front of the crowd. We also provide them support as they
                                    prepare.

                                    An organization that I also belong to is Toastmasters
                                    <http://www.toastmasters.org/>. They have a program called the Youth
                                    Leadership Program designed to help high school aged youth become
                                    better speakers, and be more comfortable running meetings.

                                    If you have a group of youth that would like to improve their
                                    communications skills, or a group of Boy Scouts interested in working
                                    on public Speaking and Communications Merit badges, I recommend Finding
                                    a Toastmasters Club near you. They are an excellent resource for
                                    communications training. Check out the website to find a club near
                                    you.

                                    Of course, they are always looking for adults to join and work on their
                                    communications and leadership skills as well :o)

                                    Yours in Scouting,
                                    Ken

                                    --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                    Message: 4
                                    Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:38:51 -0500
                                    From: "Debbie Beer" <beer@...>
                                    Subject: Re: Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)

                                    I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                    speakers....

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