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Re: Announcements Song

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  • Bren909
    Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? I m always a big proponent that people
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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      Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
      certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

      I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
      you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
      announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
      information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
      the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
      just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
      expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
      group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
      printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
      to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
      without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
      have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

      Brenda
    • Kevin Pate
      ... And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure song drum roll please I m a little tea pot, short and stout Here is my handle, Here is my handle (pause,
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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        > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot'

        And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure
        song
        drum roll please


        I'm a little tea pot,
        short and stout
        Here is my handle,
        Here is my handle
        (pause, look quizical, then give a heavy sigh)
        Oh mannnnnnn, I'm a sugar bowl
        (exit stage right as you shake head slowly
        & sadly, with shoulders slumped)


        __________________________________
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        Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
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      • Dan Kurtenbach
        Brenda wrote, Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? Again, with respect, I
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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          Brenda wrote, "Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
          certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?"

          Again, with respect, I don't think you can lay down a blanket rule that the
          Announcements Song is always rude. And I would suggest again that something
          is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Indeed, if in a Pack
          meeting or other gathering where the song is *always* sung and is always
          expected, it might be rude *not* to welcome a speaker with it.

          Situations where the Announcements Song is sung, like Pack Meetings and
          Roundtables, are intended to be vortices of fun, and that is part of the
          reason people come. While people do come to such gatherings to get
          "important information," there is no reason why announcements have to stomp
          all over the general mood of good humor. Many announcements, even if
          important, ARE boring. They don't apply to many people in the room, or they
          go on too long, or they are being made at the wrong time or in the wrong
          meeting. That is why we try to keep them short and to the point and have
          them at an appropriate time.

          And that leads to one reason why the Announcements Song is a good and useful
          tool. A good meeting has a rhythm -- peaks and valleys of excitement and
          calm, fun and seriousness, with good transitions in between. Cheers,
          run-ons, jokes, and songs are very useful in transitioning between parts of
          a meeting. The Announcements Song is good because it is not only fun, but
          the lyrics themselves relate to the next segment of the meeting and signal
          the audience that, at the end of the song, it will be time to be calm for a
          few minutes. It is much more effective than trying to bring the fun to a
          dead stop all at once.

          Dan Kurtenbach
          Fairfax, VA
        • Sean Scott
          Dan wrote: And I would suggest again that something is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Dan, I d have to disagree with that.
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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            Dan wrote: <snip> And I would suggest again that something is rude only
            if there is some *intent* to be rude. <snip>

            Dan,

            I'd have to disagree with that. Consider the case where several adults
            stand in the back of a Scout meeting having a loud conversation. They
            continue talking, despite the fact that every person in the room has the
            Scout Sign up and are waiting for them to realize that everyone is
            waiting for them. They have no intent to be rude, yet they are.

            Consider the situation at a ball game where people don't remove their
            hat for the National Anthem. While some would consider it simply
            disrespectful, my son and daughters (14, 13 and 5) will waste no time in
            identifying (after the anthem, of course) every single person who didn't
            remove their cap. My son has even gone so far as to approach individuals
            in this case and remind them (politely, of course) that it is customary
            to remove one's cap for the Anthem in order to show respect for our
            flag, our nation, and our veterans.

            I don't think you can make the case that rudeness requires intent.
            Often, people who are being rude are oblivious to their actions.

            YiS,
            Sean
          • Dan Kurtenbach
            Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about -- they *aren t* examples of rudeness. Rudeness, like hazing, is not a morally
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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              Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
              -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
              morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
              we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
              virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
              inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

              The problem is that people affected by things that other people
              unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
              they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
              what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
              and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
              Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
              feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
              something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
              saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
              is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
              front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
              embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
              happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
              feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
              conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

              Hope that explains my thinking on this.

              Dan Kurtenbach
              Fairfax, VA
            • KAREN & RICK RAMBO
              I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or not.

                We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly, squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.

                Rick
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Dan Kurtenbach
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
                -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
                morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
                we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
                virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

                The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
                they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
                what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
                and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
                Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
                feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
                saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
                is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
                front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
                happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

                Hope that explains my thinking on this.

                Dan Kurtenbach
                Fairfax, VA

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              • John D. Halter
                I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings Here
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                  I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is
                  sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings
                  "Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in
                  the wilderness, Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for {Late
                  person} to come". Does anyone else do this?
                  BTW...I'm usually the "late person", so I've heard it sung to me a bunch.
                  :- )

                  Thank you,

                  John Halter
                  Cubmaster
                  Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                  www.pack230.com
                  Assistant Scoutmaster
                  Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                  Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                  ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "KAREN & RICK RAMBO" <krrambo@...>
                  To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 21:30
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                  > I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                  important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                  someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                  if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                  not.
                  >
                  > We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly,
                  squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered
                  the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down
                  to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the
                  three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be
                  ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it
                  is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to
                  someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.
                  >
                  > Rick
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                  > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking
                  about
                  > -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is
                  not a
                  > morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore
                  when
                  > we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling
                  his
                  > virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                  > inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.
                  >
                  > The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                  > unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on
                  how
                  > they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up
                  characterizing
                  > what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual
                  facts,
                  > and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the
                  "offender."
                  > Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because
                  they
                  > feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                  > something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I
                  was
                  > saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the
                  conclusion
                  > is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking
                  in
                  > front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                  > embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful."
                  What
                  > happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                  > feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                  > conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."
                  >
                  > Hope that explains my thinking on this.
                  >
                  > Dan Kurtenbach
                  > Fairfax, VA
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                  >
                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                  > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                  >
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                  >
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                  >
                  >
                • Dave Loomis
                  Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements + way to die ,
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 3, 2003
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                    Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                    song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                    die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                    http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html

                    Dave


                    To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

                    Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                    245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                    Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                  • Wendell Brown
                    ... Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn t related to training. Wendell Brown Moderator Scouter_T
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
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                      On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:08:02 -0400, Dave Loomis wrote:

                      > Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                      >song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                      >die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                      > http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html
                      >


                      Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn't
                      related to training.

                      Wendell Brown
                      Moderator Scouter_T
                    • Debbie Beer
                      I will have to say I totally agree with this statement. As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of interruptions and impromptu situations.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                        I will have to say I totally agree with this statement.

                        As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of
                        interruptions and impromptu situations. I can understand that someone who
                        is very shy might have a problem with the interruption. I would also expect
                        an experienced scouter to take that person by the hand and lead them right
                        back up on stage and help them finish what they started. The experience
                        would be a great confidence builder for all involved at that point.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:16 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                        > This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a
                        > fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment
                        > after, were the amazing Koshare Indian Dancers. At the ceremony, the
                        > dancers came out and danced around the new Eagle. At one of the dances
                        > after the ceremony, they asked the new Eagle to come on out and
                        participate
                        > in the dance, an idea which the audience supported, and which the did (and
                        > did very well). Both times, the audience was delighted, but the Scout
                        > seemed to be somewhat embarrassed. I would really have some difficulty
                        > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have difficulty
                        > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise someone
                        with
                        > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a spirit of
                        > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                        > embarrass.
                        >
                        > Dan Kurtenbach
                        > Fairfax, VA
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Debbie Beer
                        I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want to sing
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                          I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick
                          out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want
                          to sing the song we do not force them to sing the song.

                          I have had the tea pot song work in two different ways. When they were very
                          young they tried harder to keep track of what they brought to camp.
                          However, when they got older they planted belongings so that they could get
                          up and sing the tea pot song.

                          I have also had kids volunteer to stand up with the singer and end up
                          including the whole group in the song. They think of it as a tradition. In
                          fact they feel like something is missing if they go through a whole camp out
                          with out singing the song. I guess hazing is in how you present the
                          program. The response I have had with the kids is definitely not a hazing,
                          but a fellowship with my scouts.

                          Just my two cents worth.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                          To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:11 PM
                          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                          > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
                          > <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
                          > I would really have some difficulty
                          > > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
                          > difficulty
                          > > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
                          > someone with
                          > > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
                          > spirit of
                          > > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                          > > embarrass.
                          >
                          > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
                          > at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
                          > with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
                          > person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them
                          >
                          > bill
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Dan Kurtenbach
                          Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders any
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                            Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                            the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders
                            any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                            non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                            comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                            counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                            leader?

                            Dan Kurtenbach
                            Fairfax, VA
                          • Margaret Eacker
                            A lot of that is covered in TDC. Everyone is a trainer in one way or another. I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as to be
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                              A lot of that is covered in TDC.
                              Everyone is a "trainer" in one way or another.
                              I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as
                              to be more inviting to a broader group - oh well I guess it is up to
                              all of us to recommend that everyone attend and if you can talk you
                              council onto it invite the SPL's and troop instructors.

                              YiS

                              Margaret Eacker
                              Double Buffalo


                              On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 09:55 AM, Dan Kurtenbach wrote:

                              > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside
                              > from
                              > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                              > leaders
                              > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                              > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                              > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                              > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being
                              > a
                              > leader?
                              >
                              > Dan Kurtenbach
                              > Fairfax, VA
                              >
                              <image.tiff>
                              >
                              >
                              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                              >   scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                              >
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                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                              Brenda, In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT s I ll tell you that I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have seen many
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                Brenda,
                                In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT's I'll tell you that
                                I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have
                                seen many people get bored with announcers who drone on and on.
                                One of the versions goes: "Make the announcements short and sweet"
                                which is something that any announcer should pay attention to. Give
                                the facts (not a biography), have a flyer, and answer short questions
                                - do longer discussions 'off-line'. If your announcers do this I doubt
                                the people will get bored, even if they have just sung "announcements
                                are boring".
                                If someone broke into the song in the middle of an announcement I
                                would consider that to be rude. The few times I've used it have always
                                been as a prelude to announcements.

                                Pete M.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Bren909 [mailto:Bren216@...]
                                Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:21 AM
                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                                certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

                                I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
                                you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
                                announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
                                information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
                                the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
                                just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
                                expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
                                group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
                                printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
                                to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
                                without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
                                have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

                                Brenda



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                              • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                                Rick, How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your onedarknight page? The following two lines are in the song: My cousin Mort, He s sawed
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                  Rick,
                                  How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your
                                  'onedarknight' page?
                                  The following two lines are in the song: "My cousin Mort, He's sawed off
                                  and short,
                                  He measures just four foot two,". Do you think this could be embarrassing
                                  to a
                                  vertically challenged boy, even if only one person turns around and stares
                                  at him when
                                  this verse is sung? I know your intent is not to offend anyone with these
                                  lines but it could
                                  happen. I'd be much more concerned if you included songs with the intention
                                  to offend
                                  certain people.

                                  Pete Mullaney

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: KAREN & RICK RAMBO [mailto:krrambo@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:30 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                  I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                                  important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                                  someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                                  if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                                  not.

                                  <snip>
                                  Rick




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Laura Kilby
                                  We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to include as many as possible, especially the older youth. Laura Santa Fe Trail,
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                    We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to
                                    include as many as possible, especially the older youth.

                                    Laura
                                    Santa Fe Trail, District Training Chair
                                    Quivira Council, Kansas
                                  • Debbie Beer
                                    I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers. I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another troop
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                      I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers.
                                      I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another
                                      troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                      presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for crew
                                      advancement, he was unable to speak. After talking to the scout and the
                                      parents, I found out that the troop that this boy came from did not prepare
                                      him for public speaking. They did not do skits, songs, or troop
                                      presentations. His boards of review were a set of questions that were
                                      basically set by the scoutmaster. This scout is a senior patrol leader and
                                      a life scout. It makes you wonder about the quality of the leadership that
                                      let him get this far without being able to prepare for a simple board of
                                      review, or a simple demonstration in front of his own troop.

                                      I feel so sorry for this scout when he tries to go for a job interview or
                                      any other type of engagement that would require him to speak in front of
                                      others. I feel that feel that all this nonsense we do in scouting like
                                      songs, skits, announcements really does help the scouts and the leaders
                                      become better public speakers. It really does have a purpose and should not
                                      end when a boy or a leader advances from cubscouting to the next level.

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                                      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:55 AM
                                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)


                                      > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                                      > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                                      leaders
                                      > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                      > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                      > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                      > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                                      > leader?
                                      >
                                      > Dan Kurtenbach
                                      > Fairfax, VA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Bill Nelson
                                      ... speakers. ... another ... crew ... Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching. But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should stress
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                        > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                        speakers.
                                        > I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in
                                        another
                                        > troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                        > presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for
                                        crew
                                        > advancement, he was unable to speak.

                                        Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching.

                                        But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should
                                        stress with the Scouts. That was one reason for the Communications
                                        merit badge.

                                        Bill
                                      • Michael Brown
                                        ... speakers. Being a very shy person, I ve always credited the fact that I was involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop as a PL
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                          > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                          speakers.

                                          Being a very shy person, I've always credited the fact that I was
                                          involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop
                                          as a PL and later SPL, as well as an English teacher in high school
                                          who felt the best way to learn to give speeches was to do a lot of
                                          them with my ability to get up in front of a group and speak.

                                          For most people, they have to go thru Dale Carnegie or Toastmasters
                                          to get the same benefits I got as a youth... (and I've gone thru
                                          Dale Carnegie and have joined Toastmasters).

                                          Michael Brown
                                          SW Florida Council
                                        • Bill Nelson
                                          I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of never lifting his head to talk
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                            I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking
                                            problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of
                                            never lifting his head to talk to someone (constantly talking to the
                                            floor instead of the person). He ended up overcoming his speaking
                                            problems, mostly, and becoming, after a few years, one of our better
                                            SPLs.

                                            (It's nice when you have a success story)

                                            Bill
                                          • Ken Todd
                                            Debbie, Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important skill that people need in business and other organizations, like Scouting. I
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 10, 2003
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                                              Debbie,

                                              Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important
                                              skill that people need in business and other organizations, like
                                              Scouting. I strongly agree that we need to encourage our youth to take
                                              every opportunity to become comfortable speaking in front of other
                                              people.

                                              In our Troop, we rotate the responsibility of Master of Ceremonies at
                                              our quarterly Court of Honor to give different youth the opportunity to
                                              be up front of the crowd. We also provide them support as they
                                              prepare.

                                              An organization that I also belong to is Toastmasters
                                              <http://www.toastmasters.org/>. They have a program called the Youth
                                              Leadership Program designed to help high school aged youth become
                                              better speakers, and be more comfortable running meetings.

                                              If you have a group of youth that would like to improve their
                                              communications skills, or a group of Boy Scouts interested in working
                                              on public Speaking and Communications Merit badges, I recommend Finding
                                              a Toastmasters Club near you. They are an excellent resource for
                                              communications training. Check out the website to find a club near
                                              you.

                                              Of course, they are always looking for adults to join and work on their
                                              communications and leadership skills as well :o)

                                              Yours in Scouting,
                                              Ken

                                              --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                              Message: 4
                                              Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:38:51 -0500
                                              From: "Debbie Beer" <beer@...>
                                              Subject: Re: Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)

                                              I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                              speakers....

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