Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Announcements Song

Expand Messages
  • Bill Nelson
    ... wrote: I would really have some difficulty ... difficulty ... someone with ... spirit of ... Or have them sing I m a little tea
    Message 1 of 27 , Jun 1, 2003
      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
      <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
      I would really have some difficulty
      > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
      difficulty
      > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
      someone with
      > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
      spirit of
      > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
      > embarrass.

      Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
      at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
      with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
      person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them

      bill
    • Dan Kurtenbach
      With respect, Bill, I have to disagree. Under your standard, the Roundtable Commissioner couldn t cut off someone who was droning on and on because it might
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2003
        With respect, Bill, I have to disagree. Under your standard, the Roundtable
        Commissioner couldn't cut off someone who was droning on and on because it
        might embarrass the speaker. Under your standard, if I encouraged and
        expected the Announcement Song when I myself get up to make announcements,
        it would still be hazing. You have to have two things for some action to be
        hazing -- an *intent* to cause harm or embarrassment, as I mentioned before,
        and some real, threatened, or likely harm or embarrassment. Now, there are
        certainly some types of situations where a hard and fast rule is
        appropriate, such as where the action can *always* be expected to cause harm
        (hitting or other types of physical injury) and where that action would not
        occur but for an intent to harm or embarrass. I don't think you can say
        that about the Announcement Song. Perhaps there might be some rare occasion
        where both conditions are met, but my experience is that the song is not
        used to "make fun of," but to "make fun with" -- and there is a big
        difference.

        Dan Kurtenbach
        Fairfax, VA
      • Bren909
        Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? I m always a big proponent that people
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
          Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
          certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

          I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
          you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
          announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
          information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
          the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
          just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
          expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
          group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
          printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
          to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
          without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
          have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

          Brenda
        • Paul
          I have to agree, if this is Hazing we might as well cut out everything fun then. Singing a song equals hazing, I don t think so. Beside everyone up there
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
            I have to agree, if this is Hazing we might as well cut out
            everything fun then. Singing a song equals hazing, I don't think
            so. Beside everyone up there making "Announcements" knows about
            the song. Heck, half the people do it to elicit the boys to sing.
          • Kevin Pate
            ... And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure song drum roll please I m a little tea pot, short and stout Here is my handle, Here is my handle (pause,
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
              > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot'

              And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure
              song
              drum roll please


              I'm a little tea pot,
              short and stout
              Here is my handle,
              Here is my handle
              (pause, look quizical, then give a heavy sigh)
              Oh mannnnnnn, I'm a sugar bowl
              (exit stage right as you shake head slowly
              & sadly, with shoulders slumped)


              __________________________________
              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
              http://calendar.yahoo.com
            • Dan Kurtenbach
              Brenda wrote, Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? Again, with respect, I
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
                Brenda wrote, "Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?"

                Again, with respect, I don't think you can lay down a blanket rule that the
                Announcements Song is always rude. And I would suggest again that something
                is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Indeed, if in a Pack
                meeting or other gathering where the song is *always* sung and is always
                expected, it might be rude *not* to welcome a speaker with it.

                Situations where the Announcements Song is sung, like Pack Meetings and
                Roundtables, are intended to be vortices of fun, and that is part of the
                reason people come. While people do come to such gatherings to get
                "important information," there is no reason why announcements have to stomp
                all over the general mood of good humor. Many announcements, even if
                important, ARE boring. They don't apply to many people in the room, or they
                go on too long, or they are being made at the wrong time or in the wrong
                meeting. That is why we try to keep them short and to the point and have
                them at an appropriate time.

                And that leads to one reason why the Announcements Song is a good and useful
                tool. A good meeting has a rhythm -- peaks and valleys of excitement and
                calm, fun and seriousness, with good transitions in between. Cheers,
                run-ons, jokes, and songs are very useful in transitioning between parts of
                a meeting. The Announcements Song is good because it is not only fun, but
                the lyrics themselves relate to the next segment of the meeting and signal
                the audience that, at the end of the song, it will be time to be calm for a
                few minutes. It is much more effective than trying to bring the fun to a
                dead stop all at once.

                Dan Kurtenbach
                Fairfax, VA
              • Sean Scott
                Dan wrote: And I would suggest again that something is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Dan, I d have to disagree with that.
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
                  Dan wrote: <snip> And I would suggest again that something is rude only
                  if there is some *intent* to be rude. <snip>

                  Dan,

                  I'd have to disagree with that. Consider the case where several adults
                  stand in the back of a Scout meeting having a loud conversation. They
                  continue talking, despite the fact that every person in the room has the
                  Scout Sign up and are waiting for them to realize that everyone is
                  waiting for them. They have no intent to be rude, yet they are.

                  Consider the situation at a ball game where people don't remove their
                  hat for the National Anthem. While some would consider it simply
                  disrespectful, my son and daughters (14, 13 and 5) will waste no time in
                  identifying (after the anthem, of course) every single person who didn't
                  remove their cap. My son has even gone so far as to approach individuals
                  in this case and remind them (politely, of course) that it is customary
                  to remove one's cap for the Anthem in order to show respect for our
                  flag, our nation, and our veterans.

                  I don't think you can make the case that rudeness requires intent.
                  Often, people who are being rude are oblivious to their actions.

                  YiS,
                  Sean
                • Dan Kurtenbach
                  Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about -- they *aren t* examples of rudeness. Rudeness, like hazing, is not a morally
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
                    Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
                    -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
                    morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
                    we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
                    virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                    inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

                    The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                    unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
                    they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
                    what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
                    and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
                    Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
                    feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                    something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
                    saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
                    is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
                    front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                    embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
                    happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                    feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                    conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

                    Hope that explains my thinking on this.

                    Dan Kurtenbach
                    Fairfax, VA
                  • KAREN & RICK RAMBO
                    I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
                      I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or not.

                      We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly, squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.

                      Rick
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Dan Kurtenbach
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                      Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
                      -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
                      morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
                      we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
                      virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                      inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

                      The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                      unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
                      they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
                      what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
                      and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
                      Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
                      feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                      something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
                      saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
                      is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
                      front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                      embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
                      happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                      feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                      conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

                      Hope that explains my thinking on this.

                      Dan Kurtenbach
                      Fairfax, VA

                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                      For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                      scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                      Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • John D. Halter
                      I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings Here
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
                        I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is
                        sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings
                        "Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in
                        the wilderness, Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for {Late
                        person} to come". Does anyone else do this?
                        BTW...I'm usually the "late person", so I've heard it sung to me a bunch.
                        :- )

                        Thank you,

                        John Halter
                        Cubmaster
                        Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                        www.pack230.com
                        Assistant Scoutmaster
                        Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                        Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                        ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "KAREN & RICK RAMBO" <krrambo@...>
                        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 21:30
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                        > I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                        important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                        someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                        if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                        not.
                        >
                        > We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly,
                        squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered
                        the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down
                        to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the
                        three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be
                        ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it
                        is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to
                        someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.
                        >
                        > Rick
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking
                        about
                        > -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is
                        not a
                        > morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore
                        when
                        > we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling
                        his
                        > virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                        > inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.
                        >
                        > The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                        > unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on
                        how
                        > they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up
                        characterizing
                        > what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual
                        facts,
                        > and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the
                        "offender."
                        > Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because
                        they
                        > feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                        > something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I
                        was
                        > saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the
                        conclusion
                        > is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking
                        in
                        > front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                        > embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful."
                        What
                        > happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                        > feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                        > conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."
                        >
                        > Hope that explains my thinking on this.
                        >
                        > Dan Kurtenbach
                        > Fairfax, VA
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Dave Loomis
                        Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements + way to die ,
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 3, 2003
                          Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                          song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                          die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                          http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html

                          Dave


                          To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

                          Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                          245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                          Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                        • Wendell Brown
                          ... Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn t related to training. Wendell Brown Moderator Scouter_T
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
                            On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:08:02 -0400, Dave Loomis wrote:

                            > Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                            >song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                            >die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                            > http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html
                            >


                            Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn't
                            related to training.

                            Wendell Brown
                            Moderator Scouter_T
                          • Debbie Beer
                            I will have to say I totally agree with this statement. As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of interruptions and impromptu situations.
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                              I will have to say I totally agree with this statement.

                              As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of
                              interruptions and impromptu situations. I can understand that someone who
                              is very shy might have a problem with the interruption. I would also expect
                              an experienced scouter to take that person by the hand and lead them right
                              back up on stage and help them finish what they started. The experience
                              would be a great confidence builder for all involved at that point.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                              To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:16 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                              > This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a
                              > fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment
                              > after, were the amazing Koshare Indian Dancers. At the ceremony, the
                              > dancers came out and danced around the new Eagle. At one of the dances
                              > after the ceremony, they asked the new Eagle to come on out and
                              participate
                              > in the dance, an idea which the audience supported, and which the did (and
                              > did very well). Both times, the audience was delighted, but the Scout
                              > seemed to be somewhat embarrassed. I would really have some difficulty
                              > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have difficulty
                              > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise someone
                              with
                              > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a spirit of
                              > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                              > embarrass.
                              >
                              > Dan Kurtenbach
                              > Fairfax, VA
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Debbie Beer
                              I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want to sing
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick
                                out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want
                                to sing the song we do not force them to sing the song.

                                I have had the tea pot song work in two different ways. When they were very
                                young they tried harder to keep track of what they brought to camp.
                                However, when they got older they planted belongings so that they could get
                                up and sing the tea pot song.

                                I have also had kids volunteer to stand up with the singer and end up
                                including the whole group in the song. They think of it as a tradition. In
                                fact they feel like something is missing if they go through a whole camp out
                                with out singing the song. I guess hazing is in how you present the
                                program. The response I have had with the kids is definitely not a hazing,
                                but a fellowship with my scouts.

                                Just my two cents worth.
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                                To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:11 PM
                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
                                > <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
                                > I would really have some difficulty
                                > > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
                                > difficulty
                                > > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
                                > someone with
                                > > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
                                > spirit of
                                > > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                                > > embarrass.
                                >
                                > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
                                > at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
                                > with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
                                > person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them
                                >
                                > bill
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Dan Kurtenbach
                                Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders any
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                  Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                                  the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders
                                  any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                  non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                  comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                  counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                                  leader?

                                  Dan Kurtenbach
                                  Fairfax, VA
                                • Margaret Eacker
                                  A lot of that is covered in TDC. Everyone is a trainer in one way or another. I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as to be
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                    A lot of that is covered in TDC.
                                    Everyone is a "trainer" in one way or another.
                                    I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as
                                    to be more inviting to a broader group - oh well I guess it is up to
                                    all of us to recommend that everyone attend and if you can talk you
                                    council onto it invite the SPL's and troop instructors.

                                    YiS

                                    Margaret Eacker
                                    Double Buffalo


                                    On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 09:55 AM, Dan Kurtenbach wrote:

                                    > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside
                                    > from
                                    > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                                    > leaders
                                    > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                    > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                    > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                    > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being
                                    > a
                                    > leader?
                                    >
                                    > Dan Kurtenbach
                                    > Fairfax, VA
                                    >
                                    <image.tiff>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                    >   scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                                    Brenda, In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT s I ll tell you that I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have seen many
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                      Brenda,
                                      In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT's I'll tell you that
                                      I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have
                                      seen many people get bored with announcers who drone on and on.
                                      One of the versions goes: "Make the announcements short and sweet"
                                      which is something that any announcer should pay attention to. Give
                                      the facts (not a biography), have a flyer, and answer short questions
                                      - do longer discussions 'off-line'. If your announcers do this I doubt
                                      the people will get bored, even if they have just sung "announcements
                                      are boring".
                                      If someone broke into the song in the middle of an announcement I
                                      would consider that to be rude. The few times I've used it have always
                                      been as a prelude to announcements.

                                      Pete M.

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Bren909 [mailto:Bren216@...]
                                      Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:21 AM
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                      Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                                      certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

                                      I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
                                      you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
                                      announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
                                      information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
                                      the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
                                      just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
                                      expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
                                      group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
                                      printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
                                      to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
                                      without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
                                      have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

                                      Brenda



                                      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                                      <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=17050661
                                      62:HM/A=1524963/R=0/SIG=12ongbbsq/*http://hits.411web.com/cgi-bin/autoredir?
                                      camp=556&lineid=3179269&prop=egroupweb&pos=HM>

                                      <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=249982.3179269.4495679.1261774/D=egroupmai
                                      l/S=:HM/A=1524963/rand=722473051>

                                      For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                      scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                                      Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                      <http://www.arkie.net/scouting/>

                                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                                      <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                                      Rick, How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your onedarknight page? The following two lines are in the song: My cousin Mort, He s sawed
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                        Rick,
                                        How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your
                                        'onedarknight' page?
                                        The following two lines are in the song: "My cousin Mort, He's sawed off
                                        and short,
                                        He measures just four foot two,". Do you think this could be embarrassing
                                        to a
                                        vertically challenged boy, even if only one person turns around and stares
                                        at him when
                                        this verse is sung? I know your intent is not to offend anyone with these
                                        lines but it could
                                        happen. I'd be much more concerned if you included songs with the intention
                                        to offend
                                        certain people.

                                        Pete Mullaney

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: KAREN & RICK RAMBO [mailto:krrambo@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:30 PM
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                        I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                                        important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                                        someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                                        if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                                        not.

                                        <snip>
                                        Rick




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Laura Kilby
                                        We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to include as many as possible, especially the older youth. Laura Santa Fe Trail,
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
                                          We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to
                                          include as many as possible, especially the older youth.

                                          Laura
                                          Santa Fe Trail, District Training Chair
                                          Quivira Council, Kansas
                                        • Debbie Beer
                                          I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers. I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another troop
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
                                            I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers.
                                            I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another
                                            troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                            presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for crew
                                            advancement, he was unable to speak. After talking to the scout and the
                                            parents, I found out that the troop that this boy came from did not prepare
                                            him for public speaking. They did not do skits, songs, or troop
                                            presentations. His boards of review were a set of questions that were
                                            basically set by the scoutmaster. This scout is a senior patrol leader and
                                            a life scout. It makes you wonder about the quality of the leadership that
                                            let him get this far without being able to prepare for a simple board of
                                            review, or a simple demonstration in front of his own troop.

                                            I feel so sorry for this scout when he tries to go for a job interview or
                                            any other type of engagement that would require him to speak in front of
                                            others. I feel that feel that all this nonsense we do in scouting like
                                            songs, skits, announcements really does help the scouts and the leaders
                                            become better public speakers. It really does have a purpose and should not
                                            end when a boy or a leader advances from cubscouting to the next level.

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                                            To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:55 AM
                                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)


                                            > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                                            > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                                            leaders
                                            > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                            > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                            > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                            > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                                            > leader?
                                            >
                                            > Dan Kurtenbach
                                            > Fairfax, VA
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                            >
                                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Bill Nelson
                                            ... speakers. ... another ... crew ... Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching. But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should stress
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
                                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                              > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                              speakers.
                                              > I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in
                                              another
                                              > troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                              > presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for
                                              crew
                                              > advancement, he was unable to speak.

                                              Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching.

                                              But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should
                                              stress with the Scouts. That was one reason for the Communications
                                              merit badge.

                                              Bill
                                            • Michael Brown
                                              ... speakers. Being a very shy person, I ve always credited the fact that I was involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop as a PL
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
                                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                                > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                                speakers.

                                                Being a very shy person, I've always credited the fact that I was
                                                involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop
                                                as a PL and later SPL, as well as an English teacher in high school
                                                who felt the best way to learn to give speeches was to do a lot of
                                                them with my ability to get up in front of a group and speak.

                                                For most people, they have to go thru Dale Carnegie or Toastmasters
                                                to get the same benefits I got as a youth... (and I've gone thru
                                                Dale Carnegie and have joined Toastmasters).

                                                Michael Brown
                                                SW Florida Council
                                              • Bill Nelson
                                                I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of never lifting his head to talk
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
                                                  I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking
                                                  problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of
                                                  never lifting his head to talk to someone (constantly talking to the
                                                  floor instead of the person). He ended up overcoming his speaking
                                                  problems, mostly, and becoming, after a few years, one of our better
                                                  SPLs.

                                                  (It's nice when you have a success story)

                                                  Bill
                                                • Ken Todd
                                                  Debbie, Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important skill that people need in business and other organizations, like Scouting. I
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 10, 2003
                                                    Debbie,

                                                    Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important
                                                    skill that people need in business and other organizations, like
                                                    Scouting. I strongly agree that we need to encourage our youth to take
                                                    every opportunity to become comfortable speaking in front of other
                                                    people.

                                                    In our Troop, we rotate the responsibility of Master of Ceremonies at
                                                    our quarterly Court of Honor to give different youth the opportunity to
                                                    be up front of the crowd. We also provide them support as they
                                                    prepare.

                                                    An organization that I also belong to is Toastmasters
                                                    <http://www.toastmasters.org/>. They have a program called the Youth
                                                    Leadership Program designed to help high school aged youth become
                                                    better speakers, and be more comfortable running meetings.

                                                    If you have a group of youth that would like to improve their
                                                    communications skills, or a group of Boy Scouts interested in working
                                                    on public Speaking and Communications Merit badges, I recommend Finding
                                                    a Toastmasters Club near you. They are an excellent resource for
                                                    communications training. Check out the website to find a club near
                                                    you.

                                                    Of course, they are always looking for adults to join and work on their
                                                    communications and leadership skills as well :o)

                                                    Yours in Scouting,
                                                    Ken

                                                    --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                    Message: 4
                                                    Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:38:51 -0500
                                                    From: "Debbie Beer" <beer@...>
                                                    Subject: Re: Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)

                                                    I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                                    speakers....

                                                    __________________________________
                                                    Do you Yahoo!?
                                                    Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                                                    http://calendar.yahoo.com
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.