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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song

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  • Dan Kurtenbach
    This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment after,
    Message 1 of 27 , May 31 2:16 PM
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      This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a
      fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment
      after, were the amazing Koshare Indian Dancers. At the ceremony, the
      dancers came out and danced around the new Eagle. At one of the dances
      after the ceremony, they asked the new Eagle to come on out and participate
      in the dance, an idea which the audience supported, and which the did (and
      did very well). Both times, the audience was delighted, but the Scout
      seemed to be somewhat embarrassed. I would really have some difficulty
      putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have difficulty
      calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise someone with
      the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a spirit of
      good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
      embarrass.

      Dan Kurtenbach
      Fairfax, VA
    • Bill Nelson
      ... wrote: I would really have some difficulty ... difficulty ... someone with ... spirit of ... Or have them sing I m a little tea
      Message 2 of 27 , Jun 1, 2003
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        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
        <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
        I would really have some difficulty
        > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
        difficulty
        > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
        someone with
        > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
        spirit of
        > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
        > embarrass.

        Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
        at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
        with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
        person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them

        bill
      • Dan Kurtenbach
        With respect, Bill, I have to disagree. Under your standard, the Roundtable Commissioner couldn t cut off someone who was droning on and on because it might
        Message 3 of 27 , Jun 1, 2003
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          With respect, Bill, I have to disagree. Under your standard, the Roundtable
          Commissioner couldn't cut off someone who was droning on and on because it
          might embarrass the speaker. Under your standard, if I encouraged and
          expected the Announcement Song when I myself get up to make announcements,
          it would still be hazing. You have to have two things for some action to be
          hazing -- an *intent* to cause harm or embarrassment, as I mentioned before,
          and some real, threatened, or likely harm or embarrassment. Now, there are
          certainly some types of situations where a hard and fast rule is
          appropriate, such as where the action can *always* be expected to cause harm
          (hitting or other types of physical injury) and where that action would not
          occur but for an intent to harm or embarrass. I don't think you can say
          that about the Announcement Song. Perhaps there might be some rare occasion
          where both conditions are met, but my experience is that the song is not
          used to "make fun of," but to "make fun with" -- and there is a big
          difference.

          Dan Kurtenbach
          Fairfax, VA
        • Bren909
          Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? I m always a big proponent that people
          Message 4 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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            Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
            certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

            I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
            you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
            announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
            information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
            the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
            just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
            expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
            group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
            printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
            to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
            without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
            have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

            Brenda
          • Paul
            I have to agree, if this is Hazing we might as well cut out everything fun then. Singing a song equals hazing, I don t think so. Beside everyone up there
            Message 5 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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              I have to agree, if this is Hazing we might as well cut out
              everything fun then. Singing a song equals hazing, I don't think
              so. Beside everyone up there making "Announcements" knows about
              the song. Heck, half the people do it to elicit the boys to sing.
            • Kevin Pate
              ... And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure song drum roll please I m a little tea pot, short and stout Here is my handle, Here is my handle (pause,
              Message 6 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot'

                And now, live on stage, the teapot counter-measure
                song
                drum roll please


                I'm a little tea pot,
                short and stout
                Here is my handle,
                Here is my handle
                (pause, look quizical, then give a heavy sigh)
                Oh mannnnnnn, I'm a sugar bowl
                (exit stage right as you shake head slowly
                & sadly, with shoulders slumped)


                __________________________________
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              • Dan Kurtenbach
                Brenda wrote, Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it s certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys? Again, with respect, I
                Message 7 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                  Brenda wrote, "Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                  certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?"

                  Again, with respect, I don't think you can lay down a blanket rule that the
                  Announcements Song is always rude. And I would suggest again that something
                  is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Indeed, if in a Pack
                  meeting or other gathering where the song is *always* sung and is always
                  expected, it might be rude *not* to welcome a speaker with it.

                  Situations where the Announcements Song is sung, like Pack Meetings and
                  Roundtables, are intended to be vortices of fun, and that is part of the
                  reason people come. While people do come to such gatherings to get
                  "important information," there is no reason why announcements have to stomp
                  all over the general mood of good humor. Many announcements, even if
                  important, ARE boring. They don't apply to many people in the room, or they
                  go on too long, or they are being made at the wrong time or in the wrong
                  meeting. That is why we try to keep them short and to the point and have
                  them at an appropriate time.

                  And that leads to one reason why the Announcements Song is a good and useful
                  tool. A good meeting has a rhythm -- peaks and valleys of excitement and
                  calm, fun and seriousness, with good transitions in between. Cheers,
                  run-ons, jokes, and songs are very useful in transitioning between parts of
                  a meeting. The Announcements Song is good because it is not only fun, but
                  the lyrics themselves relate to the next segment of the meeting and signal
                  the audience that, at the end of the song, it will be time to be calm for a
                  few minutes. It is much more effective than trying to bring the fun to a
                  dead stop all at once.

                  Dan Kurtenbach
                  Fairfax, VA
                • Sean Scott
                  Dan wrote: And I would suggest again that something is rude only if there is some *intent* to be rude. Dan, I d have to disagree with that.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                    Dan wrote: <snip> And I would suggest again that something is rude only
                    if there is some *intent* to be rude. <snip>

                    Dan,

                    I'd have to disagree with that. Consider the case where several adults
                    stand in the back of a Scout meeting having a loud conversation. They
                    continue talking, despite the fact that every person in the room has the
                    Scout Sign up and are waiting for them to realize that everyone is
                    waiting for them. They have no intent to be rude, yet they are.

                    Consider the situation at a ball game where people don't remove their
                    hat for the National Anthem. While some would consider it simply
                    disrespectful, my son and daughters (14, 13 and 5) will waste no time in
                    identifying (after the anthem, of course) every single person who didn't
                    remove their cap. My son has even gone so far as to approach individuals
                    in this case and remind them (politely, of course) that it is customary
                    to remove one's cap for the Anthem in order to show respect for our
                    flag, our nation, and our veterans.

                    I don't think you can make the case that rudeness requires intent.
                    Often, people who are being rude are oblivious to their actions.

                    YiS,
                    Sean
                  • Dan Kurtenbach
                    Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about -- they *aren t* examples of rudeness. Rudeness, like hazing, is not a morally
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                      Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
                      -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
                      morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
                      we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
                      virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                      inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

                      The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                      unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
                      they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
                      what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
                      and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
                      Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
                      feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                      something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
                      saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
                      is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
                      front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                      embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
                      happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                      feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                      conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

                      Hope that explains my thinking on this.

                      Dan Kurtenbach
                      Fairfax, VA
                    • KAREN & RICK RAMBO
                      I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                        I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered, someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or not.

                        We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly, squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.

                        Rick
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Dan Kurtenbach
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                        Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking about
                        -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is not a
                        morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore when
                        we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling his
                        virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                        inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.

                        The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                        unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on how
                        they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up characterizing
                        what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual facts,
                        and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the "offender."
                        Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because they
                        feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                        something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I was
                        saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the conclusion
                        is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking in
                        front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                        embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful." What
                        happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                        feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                        conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."

                        Hope that explains my thinking on this.

                        Dan Kurtenbach
                        Fairfax, VA

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                      • John D. Halter
                        I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings Here
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jun 2, 2003
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                          I was thinking about this earlier tonight. I was reminded of a song that is
                          sometimes sung when a person shows up late for something. The group sings
                          "Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, birds in the wilderness, birds in
                          the wilderness, Here we sit like birds in the wilderness, waiting for {Late
                          person} to come". Does anyone else do this?
                          BTW...I'm usually the "late person", so I've heard it sung to me a bunch.
                          :- )

                          Thank you,

                          John Halter
                          Cubmaster
                          Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                          www.pack230.com
                          Assistant Scoutmaster
                          Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                          Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                          ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "KAREN & RICK RAMBO" <krrambo@...>
                          To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 21:30
                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                          > I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                          important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                          someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                          if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                          not.
                          >
                          > We used to have the scout that lost something sing 'squirrelly,
                          squirrelly, shake your bushy tail' to get it back, but when we considered
                          the embarrassment factor, we stopped , same with turning the boy upside down
                          to receive their bobcat badge, and - yes, the announcement song. what do the
                          three of these things have in common? when the ADULTS who are supposed to be
                          ROLE MODELS changed the rules, it was the BOYS who were the most upset. it
                          is only natural for BOYS to enjoy anything that might be embarrassing to
                          someone else, but it is the ADULT's job to help them learn the difference.
                          >
                          > Rick
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 12:28 PM
                          > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song
                          >
                          >
                          > Thanks, Sean. Actually, your examples are exactly what I am talking
                          about
                          > -- they *aren't* examples of rudeness. "Rudeness," like "hazing," is
                          not a
                          > morally neutral word; there is something bad about rudeness. Therefore
                          when
                          > we conclude that someone was "rude," we are in some small way calling
                          his
                          > virtue into question -- that is, his *intent.* Your examples show
                          > inattention or ignorance or obliviousness, but not rudeness.
                          >
                          > The problem is that people affected by things that other people
                          > unintentionally do (or don't do) sometimes draw a conclusion based on
                          how
                          > they feel, not on what actually happened. And then we end up
                          characterizing
                          > what happened by an incorrect conclusion rather than by the actual
                          facts,
                          > and that conclusion often deals with the relative virtue of the
                          "offender."
                          > Inattention becomes rudeness. And in many cases people do that because
                          they
                          > feel exactly the same way as they do when someone *intentionally* does
                          > something to them. What happened is, "he didn't pay attention to what I
                          was
                          > saying"; the feeling is, "I'm hurt that he didn't listen"; the
                          conclusion
                          > is, "he was rude." What happened is, "I have a very hard time speaking
                          in
                          > front of people and the song threw me"; the feeling is, "I was very
                          > embarrassed and stressed"; the conclusion is, "that song is hurtful."
                          What
                          > happened is, "he didn't take off his cap for the National Anthem"; the
                          > feeling is, "every good American shows proper respect for the Flag"; the
                          > conclusion is, "he is disrespectful and unpatriotic."
                          >
                          > Hope that explains my thinking on this.
                          >
                          > Dan Kurtenbach
                          > Fairfax, VA
                          >
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                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Dave Loomis
                          Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements + way to die ,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jun 3, 2003
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                            Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                            song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                            die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                            http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html

                            Dave


                            To reply, click on the mailto: address below.

                            Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                            245 Union St. (603) 431 5342
                            Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                          • Wendell Brown
                            ... Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn t related to training. Wendell Brown Moderator Scouter_T
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jun 4, 2003
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                              On Tue, 03 Jun 2003 22:08:02 -0400, Dave Loomis wrote:

                              > Can we consider this topic closed? There are lots of verses to this
                              >song which can be found by doing a search on the words Announcements +"way to
                              >die", including one that I found on The Mac Scouter,
                              > http://www.macscouter.com/usscouts/songs/announce.html
                              >


                              Yeah Dave. I think we need to close this topic. It really isn't
                              related to training.

                              Wendell Brown
                              Moderator Scouter_T
                            • Debbie Beer
                              I will have to say I totally agree with this statement. As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of interruptions and impromptu situations.
                              Message 14 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                I will have to say I totally agree with this statement.

                                As a public speaker you have to learn to deal with all kinds of
                                interruptions and impromptu situations. I can understand that someone who
                                is very shy might have a problem with the interruption. I would also expect
                                an experienced scouter to take that person by the hand and lead them right
                                back up on stage and help them finish what they started. The experience
                                would be a great confidence builder for all involved at that point.

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                                To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:16 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                > This afternoon I had the honor of attending the Eagle Court of Honor for a
                                > fine young man. A surprise element of the ceremony, and the entertainment
                                > after, were the amazing Koshare Indian Dancers. At the ceremony, the
                                > dancers came out and danced around the new Eagle. At one of the dances
                                > after the ceremony, they asked the new Eagle to come on out and
                                participate
                                > in the dance, an idea which the audience supported, and which the did (and
                                > did very well). Both times, the audience was delighted, but the Scout
                                > seemed to be somewhat embarrassed. I would really have some difficulty
                                > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have difficulty
                                > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise someone
                                with
                                > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a spirit of
                                > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                                > embarrass.
                                >
                                > Dan Kurtenbach
                                > Fairfax, VA
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Debbie Beer
                                I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want to sing
                                Message 15 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                  I have scouts that love to sing the little tea pot song. They get a kick
                                  out of having fun in the spirit of scouting. Remember if they do not want
                                  to sing the song we do not force them to sing the song.

                                  I have had the tea pot song work in two different ways. When they were very
                                  young they tried harder to keep track of what they brought to camp.
                                  However, when they got older they planted belongings so that they could get
                                  up and sing the tea pot song.

                                  I have also had kids volunteer to stand up with the singer and end up
                                  including the whole group in the song. They think of it as a tradition. In
                                  fact they feel like something is missing if they go through a whole camp out
                                  with out singing the song. I guess hazing is in how you present the
                                  program. The response I have had with the kids is definitely not a hazing,
                                  but a fellowship with my scouts.

                                  Just my two cents worth.
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                                  To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 11:11 PM
                                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                  > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Kurtenbach"
                                  > <danielkurtenbach@h...> wrote:
                                  > I would really have some difficulty
                                  > > putting this in the category of "hazing," just as I would have
                                  > difficulty
                                  > > calling it hazing to sing "Happy Birthday" to someone, surprise
                                  > someone with
                                  > > the District Award of Merit, or sing the Announcement Song in a
                                  > spirit of
                                  > > good Scouting fun. I think hazing requires an *intent* to harm or
                                  > > embarrass.
                                  >
                                  > Or have them sing 'I'm a little tea pot' if they loose something
                                  > at summer camp? Nope, your participating in a type of hazing
                                  > with the announcement song. you are making fun of the
                                  > person giving the announcement. you are hazing AND heckling them
                                  >
                                  > bill
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                  > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
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                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Dan Kurtenbach
                                  Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders any
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                    Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                                    the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give leaders
                                    any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                    non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                    comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                    counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                                    leader?

                                    Dan Kurtenbach
                                    Fairfax, VA
                                  • Margaret Eacker
                                    A lot of that is covered in TDC. Everyone is a trainer in one way or another. I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as to be
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                      A lot of that is covered in TDC.
                                      Everyone is a "trainer" in one way or another.
                                      I had hoped when TTT was changed that they would change the name so as
                                      to be more inviting to a broader group - oh well I guess it is up to
                                      all of us to recommend that everyone attend and if you can talk you
                                      council onto it invite the SPL's and troop instructors.

                                      YiS

                                      Margaret Eacker
                                      Double Buffalo


                                      On Thursday, June 5, 2003, at 09:55 AM, Dan Kurtenbach wrote:

                                      > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside
                                      > from
                                      > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                                      > leaders
                                      > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                      > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                      > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                      > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being
                                      > a
                                      > leader?
                                      >
                                      > Dan Kurtenbach
                                      > Fairfax, VA
                                      >
                                      <image.tiff>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                      >   scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                                      Brenda, In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT s I ll tell you that I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have seen many
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                        Brenda,
                                        In my short 11 years of experience with CS RT's I'll tell you that
                                        I never saw anyone got bored by an announcement song, however I have
                                        seen many people get bored with announcers who drone on and on.
                                        One of the versions goes: "Make the announcements short and sweet"
                                        which is something that any announcer should pay attention to. Give
                                        the facts (not a biography), have a flyer, and answer short questions
                                        - do longer discussions 'off-line'. If your announcers do this I doubt
                                        the people will get bored, even if they have just sung "announcements
                                        are boring".
                                        If someone broke into the song in the middle of an announcement I
                                        would consider that to be rude. The few times I've used it have always
                                        been as a prelude to announcements.

                                        Pete M.

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Bren909 [mailto:Bren216@...]
                                        Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 3:21 AM
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                        Whether or not the Announcements Song is hazing or not, it's
                                        certainly rude. Is that what we want to teach our boys?

                                        I'm always a big proponent that people will react in the way that
                                        you want them to. So, when I (or anyone else in our meeting) make
                                        announcements, I expect the group to listen and to gain important
                                        information. In contrast, one of the versions of the song included
                                        the thought that announcements are boring. In my experience, that
                                        just sets the group up to not listen to the message because they
                                        expect it to be useless. It's hard enough to get information to a
                                        group (personally, I do it via announcements and back it up with
                                        printed fliers then add to that e-mail -- STILL, people will come up
                                        to me the day before an event and say, "I didn't know about this.")
                                        without having them tuning me out before I ever speak because they
                                        have been conditioned to assume that announcements are "boring."

                                        Brenda



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                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                                        Rick, How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your onedarknight page? The following two lines are in the song: My cousin Mort, He s sawed
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                          Rick,
                                          How far do we go? Will you remove #58 Mountain Dew from your
                                          'onedarknight' page?
                                          The following two lines are in the song: "My cousin Mort, He's sawed off
                                          and short,
                                          He measures just four foot two,". Do you think this could be embarrassing
                                          to a
                                          vertically challenged boy, even if only one person turns around and stares
                                          at him when
                                          this verse is sung? I know your intent is not to offend anyone with these
                                          lines but it could
                                          happen. I'd be much more concerned if you included songs with the intention
                                          to offend
                                          certain people.

                                          Pete Mullaney

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: KAREN & RICK RAMBO [mailto:krrambo@...]
                                          Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 9:30 PM
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Announcements Song


                                          I am starting to become concerned. It appears that now intent is more
                                          important than actions. while to some degree, intent has to be considered,
                                          someone who has never been taught that something is rude is still being rude
                                          if they participate in the offending activity - weather they realize it or
                                          not.

                                          <snip>
                                          Rick




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Laura Kilby
                                          We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to include as many as possible, especially the older youth. Laura Santa Fe Trail,
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Jun 5, 2003
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                                            We will be doing a district level TDC, specifically because we do want to
                                            include as many as possible, especially the older youth.

                                            Laura
                                            Santa Fe Trail, District Training Chair
                                            Quivira Council, Kansas
                                          • Debbie Beer
                                            I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers. I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another troop
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                              I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public speakers.
                                              I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in another
                                              troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                              presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for crew
                                              advancement, he was unable to speak. After talking to the scout and the
                                              parents, I found out that the troop that this boy came from did not prepare
                                              him for public speaking. They did not do skits, songs, or troop
                                              presentations. His boards of review were a set of questions that were
                                              basically set by the scoutmaster. This scout is a senior patrol leader and
                                              a life scout. It makes you wonder about the quality of the leadership that
                                              let him get this far without being able to prepare for a simple board of
                                              review, or a simple demonstration in front of his own troop.

                                              I feel so sorry for this scout when he tries to go for a job interview or
                                              any other type of engagement that would require him to speak in front of
                                              others. I feel that feel that all this nonsense we do in scouting like
                                              songs, skits, announcements really does help the scouts and the leaders
                                              become better public speakers. It really does have a purpose and should not
                                              end when a boy or a leader advances from cubscouting to the next level.

                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@...>
                                              To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 11:55 AM
                                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)


                                              > Debbie has hit on an issue that really *is* training related -- aside from
                                              > the substance of Scouting, to what extent do we (or should we) give
                                              leaders
                                              > any training on speaking to groups (kids, adults, mixed, Scouting,
                                              > non-Scouting, mixed), non-verbal communication (how to make a Scout
                                              > comfortable in a Scoutmaster conference, for example), how to conduct a
                                              > counseling session, and other "background" skills that come with being a
                                              > leader?
                                              >
                                              > Dan Kurtenbach
                                              > Fairfax, VA
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                              >
                                              > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Bill Nelson
                                              ... speakers. ... another ... crew ... Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching. But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should stress
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                                > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                                speakers.
                                                > I had one boy come to our Venture Crew after spending many years in
                                                another
                                                > troop in his community. The first time this scout had to make a
                                                > presentation and the first time he had to do a board of review for
                                                crew
                                                > advancement, he was unable to speak.

                                                Crew awards, in Venturing, require teaching.

                                                But I agree with you the public speaking is something that we should
                                                stress with the Scouts. That was one reason for the Communications
                                                merit badge.

                                                Bill
                                              • Michael Brown
                                                ... speakers. Being a very shy person, I ve always credited the fact that I was involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop as a PL
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Debbie Beer" <beer@c...> wrote:
                                                  > I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                                  speakers.

                                                  Being a very shy person, I've always credited the fact that I was
                                                  involved in Boy Scouts as a youth and had to get in front of my troop
                                                  as a PL and later SPL, as well as an English teacher in high school
                                                  who felt the best way to learn to give speeches was to do a lot of
                                                  them with my ability to get up in front of a group and speak.

                                                  For most people, they have to go thru Dale Carnegie or Toastmasters
                                                  to get the same benefits I got as a youth... (and I've gone thru
                                                  Dale Carnegie and have joined Toastmasters).

                                                  Michael Brown
                                                  SW Florida Council
                                                • Bill Nelson
                                                  I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of never lifting his head to talk
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Jun 9, 2003
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                                                    I had a boy join my troop who had a very serious public speaking
                                                    problem. Not only did he studder, but he also had the habit of
                                                    never lifting his head to talk to someone (constantly talking to the
                                                    floor instead of the person). He ended up overcoming his speaking
                                                    problems, mostly, and becoming, after a few years, one of our better
                                                    SPLs.

                                                    (It's nice when you have a success story)

                                                    Bill
                                                  • Ken Todd
                                                    Debbie, Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important skill that people need in business and other organizations, like Scouting. I
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Jun 10, 2003
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                                                      Debbie,

                                                      Public speaking is one of the most feared, and often most important
                                                      skill that people need in business and other organizations, like
                                                      Scouting. I strongly agree that we need to encourage our youth to take
                                                      every opportunity to become comfortable speaking in front of other
                                                      people.

                                                      In our Troop, we rotate the responsibility of Master of Ceremonies at
                                                      our quarterly Court of Honor to give different youth the opportunity to
                                                      be up front of the crowd. We also provide them support as they
                                                      prepare.

                                                      An organization that I also belong to is Toastmasters
                                                      <http://www.toastmasters.org/>. They have a program called the Youth
                                                      Leadership Program designed to help high school aged youth become
                                                      better speakers, and be more comfortable running meetings.

                                                      If you have a group of youth that would like to improve their
                                                      communications skills, or a group of Boy Scouts interested in working
                                                      on public Speaking and Communications Merit badges, I recommend Finding
                                                      a Toastmasters Club near you. They are an excellent resource for
                                                      communications training. Check out the website to find a club near
                                                      you.

                                                      Of course, they are always looking for adults to join and work on their
                                                      communications and leadership skills as well :o)

                                                      Yours in Scouting,
                                                      Ken

                                                      --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                                      Message: 4
                                                      Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:38:51 -0500
                                                      From: "Debbie Beer" <beer@...>
                                                      Subject: Re: Communications Training (spinoff of Announcements Song)

                                                      I really do think that we need to prepare our scouts to be public
                                                      speakers....

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