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RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

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  • Richard Damon
    The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings. My council will
    Message 1 of 15 , May 6, 2003
      The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will
      agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings.
      My council will even put multiple mixed families inside a large cabin
      together, which is even more off policy.

      Richard Damon
      --
      rbrdamon@... (Home)
      rdamon@... (Work)
      Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
      Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
      Boston Minuteman Council
      I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] [mailto:peter.mullaney@...]

      Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:37 AM
      To: 'scouter_t@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

      I can't 'quote' you anything, but a family can use one tent.
      If this is not correct, my council is in big trouble, since
      at our council sponsored 'Cub Scout Family Camping' entire
      families use a single tent.

      Pete M.
      "There is nothing so uncommon, as common sense."
      My dad and probably many others.

      > ----------
      > From:       Tim
      > Reply To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent:       Tuesday, May 6, 2003 9:11 AM
      > To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject:       [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
      >
      > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
      > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
      > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
      > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
      > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
      >
      > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
      > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
      > of not putting male/female together.
      >
      > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Tim
      >
      >


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    • Larry D. Ohs, Attorney at Law
      Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not. Various scenarios: 1. A group
      Message 2 of 15 , May 6, 2003
        Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not.

        Various scenarios:

        1. A group of families, who happen to include Cub Scouts, go camping together at a state park. No organized Scouting activity or connection, although the Scouts may work on advancements with their parents. Youth protection guidelines don't apply; families can sleep together.

        2. A group of families, with Cub Scouts in them, camp together at the Council family camp while big brother is there at Boy Scout resident camp. This is included in G2SS as "recreational family camping" -- "Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property." Do youth protection guidelines apply? Probably not. Families sleep together in my limited experience.

        3. Families from more than one Cub Scout pack camp at a Council-organized overnight event, such as Fun With Son/Dad and Lad/Mom and Me. Youth protection guidelines (and National Standards for Council Family Camping) apply.

        4. A group of families from one pack go camping at a council-approved state park as a monthly pack activity. Cub Scout activities are conducted by pack and den leaders. Youth protection guidelines apply to this Pack Overnighter. BALOO-trained leader must be in charge and a local tour permit is required.

        Larry Ohs
        Cornhusker Council Youth Protection Lead Trainer

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Deb Morrow


        Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
        the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
        wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
        for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

        Deb Morrow
        corzines@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Richard Damon
        Deb, It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the BSA defines family camping is: Family camping: an outdoor camping experience,
        Message 3 of 15 , May 6, 2003
          Deb,
          It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the
          BSA defines family camping is:

          Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident
          camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program
          elements in overnight settings with two or more family members,
          including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are
          responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection
          guidelines apply.

          And Youth Protection guidelines state:

          Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
          facility.

          So male and female siblings may not sleep in the same sleeping facility,
          which includes tents.

          It may be true that this rule should be revised, and it is true that
          this rule is commonly ignored, but it is the current rule.

          Richard Damon
          --
          rbrdamon@... (Home)
          rdamon@... (Work)
          Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
          Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
          Boston Minuteman Council
          I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Deb Morrow [mailto:corzines@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:37 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

          Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
          the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
          wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
          for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

          Deb Morrow
          corzines@...
        • John D. Halter
          I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to participants seem to
          Message 4 of 15 , May 6, 2003
            I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed
            crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
            seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
            that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
            participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
            tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit most
            families from being able to camp.

            Thank you,

            John Halter
            Cubmaster
            Pack 230 Apopka Florida
            www.pack230.com
            Assistant Scoutmaster
            Troop 936 Longwood Florida
            Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
            ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
            To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


            From the Guide to Safe Scouting

            I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership

            Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
            ...
            4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
            couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
            available.

            5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
            Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
            accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
            youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
            must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
            blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
            area separated from the youth.

            6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
            facility.

            7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
            other than his or her parent or guardian.

            Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
            even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
            scout camping.

            Richard Damon
            --
            rbrdamon@... (Home)
            rdamon@... (Work)
            Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
            Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
            Boston Minuteman Council
            I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

            Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
            together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
            (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
            married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
            room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?

            The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
            could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
            of not putting male/female together.

            Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?

            Thank you.

            Tim



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          • Richard Damon
            Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is not a scout) from
            Message 5 of 15 , May 6, 2003
              Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during
              family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is
              not a scout) from sleeping with another boys 16 year old brother (who is
              not a scout) (unless the parent enforced their own rules, and some might
              not). Notice the use of the word "participant" and not "scout" or
              "member", to broaden the scope of the rule to include everyone
              participating in the event. I will agree that there probably SHOULD be
              an exception to allow a family to all tent together at family camp, the
              rules unfortunately do not currently have one.

              Richard Damon
              --
              rbrdamon@... (Home)
              rdamon@... (Work)
              Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
              Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
              Boston Minuteman Council
              I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

              -----Original Message-----
              From: John D. Halter [mailto:john@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:44 PM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                  I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
              co-ed
              crew, not to brothers and sisters.  All other references to
              "participants"
              seem to indicate a registered scout.  Common sense would seem to dictate
              that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
              participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
              tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally.  If anything, that would prohibit
              most
              families from being able to camp.

              Thank you,

              John Halter
              Cubmaster
              Pack 230 Apopka Florida
              www.pack230.com
              Assistant Scoutmaster
              Troop 936 Longwood Florida
              Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
              ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too!   SR442
            • Debbie Beer
              Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians. Having brother
              Message 6 of 15 , May 6, 2003
                Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and
                Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians.
                Having brother and sister in the same tent without parents or guardians is
                discouraged.

                A little common sense goes a long way in these matters.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John D. Halter" <john@...>
                To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:43 PM
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


                > I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
                co-ed
                > crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
                > seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
                > that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                > participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                > tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit
                most
                > families from being able to camp.
                >
                > Thank you,
                >
                > John Halter
                > Cubmaster
                > Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                > www.pack230.com
                > Assistant Scoutmaster
                > Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                > Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                > ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
                > To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
                > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                >
                >
                > >From the Guide to Safe Scouting
                >
                > I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership
                >
                > Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
                > ...
                > 4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
                > couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
                > available.
                >
                > 5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
                > Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
                > accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
                > youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
                > must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
                > blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
                > area separated from the youth.
                >
                > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                > facility.
                >
                > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                >
                > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                > scout camping.
                >
                > Richard Damon
                > --
                > rbrdamon@... (Home)
                > rdamon@... (Work)
                > Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                > Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                > Boston Minuteman Council
                > I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                >
                > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                >
                > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                > of not putting male/female together.
                >
                > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                >
                > Thank you.
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                >
                >
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Tim
                Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases, the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would come out and state it
                Message 7 of 15 , May 6, 2003
                  Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases,
                  the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would
                  come out and state it clearly "NO, siblings of different sexes do not
                  camp together." OR "Yes, it is OK for siblings of different sexes to
                  camp together." Hopefully, they will update that standard soon.

                  Tim


                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <aquaboy2001@n...> wrote:
                  > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                  > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                  > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                  > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                  > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                  >
                  > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                  > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                  > of not putting male/female together.
                  >
                  > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                  >
                  > Thank you.
                  >
                  > Tim
                • Lloyd Solis
                  ... I think that #6 relates to registered scouts , specifically male and female venturers. I don t think they are implying cub scout brothers and their
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 6, 2003
                    Richard Damon wrote:

                    >
                    > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                    > facility.
                    >
                    > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                    > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                    >
                    > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                    > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                    > scout camping.
                    >
                    > Richard Damon

                    I think that #6 relates to 'registered scouts', specifically male and female venturers.
                    I don't think they are implying cub scout brothers and their sisters.
                    But then, I've made a couple of mistakes already this week in my postings.
                    I'm certainly not going to tell my families that they cannot have their boy children and
                    girl children together with mom and dad in their own tent.

                    YiS

                    Lloyd


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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