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RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

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  • Richard Damon
    The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings. My council will
    Message 1 of 15 , May 6 7:14 AM
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      The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will
      agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings.
      My council will even put multiple mixed families inside a large cabin
      together, which is even more off policy.

      Richard Damon
      --
      rbrdamon@... (Home)
      rdamon@... (Work)
      Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
      Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
      Boston Minuteman Council
      I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] [mailto:peter.mullaney@...]

      Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:37 AM
      To: 'scouter_t@yahoogroups.com'
      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

      I can't 'quote' you anything, but a family can use one tent.
      If this is not correct, my council is in big trouble, since
      at our council sponsored 'Cub Scout Family Camping' entire
      families use a single tent.

      Pete M.
      "There is nothing so uncommon, as common sense."
      My dad and probably many others.

      > ----------
      > From:       Tim
      > Reply To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent:       Tuesday, May 6, 2003 9:11 AM
      > To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject:       [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
      >
      > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
      > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
      > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
      > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
      > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
      >
      > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
      > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
      > of not putting male/female together.
      >
      > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
      >
      > Thank you.
      >
      > Tim
      >
      >


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    • Larry D. Ohs, Attorney at Law
      According to the Guide to Safe Scouting, youth protection guidelines apply to both family camping and pack overnighters. I train in BALOO that males and
      Message 2 of 15 , May 6 7:21 AM
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        According to the Guide to Safe Scouting, youth protection guidelines apply
        to both family camping and pack overnighters. I train in BALOO that males
        and females, even within the same family, need to be in separate tents with
        adults of appropriate gender present on the campout.

        Quotes from Guide to Safe Scouting:

        "Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping,
        that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in
        overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one
        BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of
        their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply."

        "Pack Overnighters ... are pack-organized overnight events involving more
        than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
        activities and conducted at council-approved locations .... If nonmembers
        (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to
        accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines
        apply."

        Larry Ohs
        Cornhusker Council Youth Protection Lead Trainer
        Salt Valley District Training Committee
        Cornhusker Council Venturing Committee, Training Chairman
        2004 Powder Horn Course Director
        "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Tim

        Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
        together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
        (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
        married, but what about mixed siblings. Do they need to be split up on a
        camping trip?
      • Deb Morrow
        Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they wish (one tent, tent for youth &
        Message 3 of 15 , May 6 7:36 AM
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          Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
          the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
          wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
          for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

          Deb Morrow
          corzines@...

          At 09:45 AM 5/6/03 -0400, you wrote:
          > >From the Guide to Safe Scouting
          >
          >I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership
          >
          >Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
          >...
          >4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
          >couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
          >available.
          >
          >5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
          >Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
          >accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
          >youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
          >must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
          >blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
          >area separated from the youth.
          >
          >6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
          >facility.
          >
          >7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
          >other than his or her parent or guardian.
          >
          >Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
          >even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
          >scout camping.
          >
          >Richard Damon
          >--
          >rbrdamon@... (Home)
          >rdamon@... (Work)
          >Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
          >Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
          >Boston Minuteman Council
          >I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
          >Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
          >To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
          >
          >Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
          >together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
          >(except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
          >married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
          >room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
          >
          >The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
          >could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
          >of not putting male/female together.
          >
          >Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
          >
          >Thank you.
          >
          >Tim
          >
          >
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Wendell Brown
          ... Which family camping are we talking about? This is one of those LOVELY situations in scouting where we potentially have more than one event with a VERY
          Message 4 of 15 , May 6 8:18 AM
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            >Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
            >the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
            >wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
            >for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

            Which "family camping" are we talking about?

            This is one of those LOVELY situations in scouting where we potentially
            have more than one event with a VERY similar name (or description) and
            potentially different requirements..... "Recreational Family Camping",
            "Council Organized Family Camp" and "Pack Overnighters" all involve
            families camping and 2 of the 3 have "Family Camp" in the name but they
            are all different.

            "Recreational Family Camping" is exactly that... your family going
            camping by YOURSELVES with some scout program mixed in. When you camp
            with JUST your family (no other scouts camping with you), the BSA rules
            really don't apply. Of course much of the G2SS is just good common
            sense so it shouldn't be discarded either. ;)

            > http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#a

            "Council Organized Family Camping" is a horse of a different color.
            This is a BSA (council or district) sponsored and staffed event for
            more than one pack. The G2SS seems to "pass the buck" on safety
            concerns for this type of camp: "Council-organized family camps must be
            conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National
            Standards for Council Family Camping, No. 13-408."

            And then we have to throw in "Pack Overnighters" (which is the primary
            focus of BALOO). Note that of the three types of camping mentioned
            only "Pack Overnighters" has the "BSA health and safety and youth
            protection guidelines apply" listed as a G2SS item.
          • Larry D. Ohs, Attorney at Law
            Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not. Various scenarios: 1. A group
            Message 5 of 15 , May 6 9:04 AM
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              Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not.

              Various scenarios:

              1. A group of families, who happen to include Cub Scouts, go camping together at a state park. No organized Scouting activity or connection, although the Scouts may work on advancements with their parents. Youth protection guidelines don't apply; families can sleep together.

              2. A group of families, with Cub Scouts in them, camp together at the Council family camp while big brother is there at Boy Scout resident camp. This is included in G2SS as "recreational family camping" -- "Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property." Do youth protection guidelines apply? Probably not. Families sleep together in my limited experience.

              3. Families from more than one Cub Scout pack camp at a Council-organized overnight event, such as Fun With Son/Dad and Lad/Mom and Me. Youth protection guidelines (and National Standards for Council Family Camping) apply.

              4. A group of families from one pack go camping at a council-approved state park as a monthly pack activity. Cub Scout activities are conducted by pack and den leaders. Youth protection guidelines apply to this Pack Overnighter. BALOO-trained leader must be in charge and a local tour permit is required.

              Larry Ohs
              Cornhusker Council Youth Protection Lead Trainer

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Deb Morrow


              Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
              the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
              wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
              for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

              Deb Morrow
              corzines@...



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Richard Damon
              Deb, It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the BSA defines family camping is: Family camping: an outdoor camping experience,
              Message 6 of 15 , May 6 10:17 AM
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                Deb,
                It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the
                BSA defines family camping is:

                Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident
                camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program
                elements in overnight settings with two or more family members,
                including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are
                responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection
                guidelines apply.

                And Youth Protection guidelines state:

                Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                facility.

                So male and female siblings may not sleep in the same sleeping facility,
                which includes tents.

                It may be true that this rule should be revised, and it is true that
                this rule is commonly ignored, but it is the current rule.

                Richard Damon
                --
                rbrdamon@... (Home)
                rdamon@... (Work)
                Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                Boston Minuteman Council
                I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Deb Morrow [mailto:corzines@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:37 AM
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
                the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
                wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
                for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

                Deb Morrow
                corzines@...
              • John D. Halter
                I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to participants seem to
                Message 7 of 15 , May 6 10:43 AM
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                  I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed
                  crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
                  seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
                  that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                  participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                  tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit most
                  families from being able to camp.

                  Thank you,

                  John Halter
                  Cubmaster
                  Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                  www.pack230.com
                  Assistant Scoutmaster
                  Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                  Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                  ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
                  To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


                  From the Guide to Safe Scouting

                  I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership

                  Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
                  ...
                  4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
                  couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
                  available.

                  5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
                  Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
                  accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
                  youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
                  must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
                  blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
                  area separated from the youth.

                  6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                  facility.

                  7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                  other than his or her parent or guardian.

                  Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                  even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                  scout camping.

                  Richard Damon
                  --
                  rbrdamon@... (Home)
                  rdamon@... (Work)
                  Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                  Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                  Boston Minuteman Council
                  I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                  Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                  together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                  (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                  married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                  room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?

                  The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                  could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                  of not putting male/female together.

                  Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?

                  Thank you.

                  Tim



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                • Richard Damon
                  Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is not a scout) from
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 6 11:00 AM
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                    Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during
                    family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is
                    not a scout) from sleeping with another boys 16 year old brother (who is
                    not a scout) (unless the parent enforced their own rules, and some might
                    not). Notice the use of the word "participant" and not "scout" or
                    "member", to broaden the scope of the rule to include everyone
                    participating in the event. I will agree that there probably SHOULD be
                    an exception to allow a family to all tent together at family camp, the
                    rules unfortunately do not currently have one.

                    Richard Damon
                    --
                    rbrdamon@... (Home)
                    rdamon@... (Work)
                    Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                    Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                    Boston Minuteman Council
                    I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: John D. Halter [mailto:john@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:44 PM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                        I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
                    co-ed
                    crew, not to brothers and sisters.  All other references to
                    "participants"
                    seem to indicate a registered scout.  Common sense would seem to dictate
                    that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                    participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                    tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally.  If anything, that would prohibit
                    most
                    families from being able to camp.

                    Thank you,

                    John Halter
                    Cubmaster
                    Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                    www.pack230.com
                    Assistant Scoutmaster
                    Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                    Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                    ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too!   SR442
                  • Debbie Beer
                    Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians. Having brother
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 6 1:52 PM
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                      Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and
                      Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians.
                      Having brother and sister in the same tent without parents or guardians is
                      discouraged.

                      A little common sense goes a long way in these matters.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "John D. Halter" <john@...>
                      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:43 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


                      > I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
                      co-ed
                      > crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
                      > seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
                      > that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                      > participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                      > tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit
                      most
                      > families from being able to camp.
                      >
                      > Thank you,
                      >
                      > John Halter
                      > Cubmaster
                      > Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                      > www.pack230.com
                      > Assistant Scoutmaster
                      > Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                      > Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                      > ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
                      > To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
                      > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                      >
                      >
                      > >From the Guide to Safe Scouting
                      >
                      > I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership
                      >
                      > Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
                      > ...
                      > 4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
                      > couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
                      > available.
                      >
                      > 5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
                      > Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
                      > accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
                      > youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
                      > must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
                      > blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
                      > area separated from the youth.
                      >
                      > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                      > facility.
                      >
                      > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                      > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                      >
                      > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                      > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                      > scout camping.
                      >
                      > Richard Damon
                      > --
                      > rbrdamon@... (Home)
                      > rdamon@... (Work)
                      > Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                      > Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                      > Boston Minuteman Council
                      > I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
                      > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
                      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                      >
                      > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                      > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                      > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                      > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                      > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                      >
                      > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                      > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                      > of not putting male/female together.
                      >
                      > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                      >
                      > Thank you.
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
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                      >
                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Tim
                      Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases, the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would come out and state it
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 6 3:48 PM
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                        Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases,
                        the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would
                        come out and state it clearly "NO, siblings of different sexes do not
                        camp together." OR "Yes, it is OK for siblings of different sexes to
                        camp together." Hopefully, they will update that standard soon.

                        Tim


                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <aquaboy2001@n...> wrote:
                        > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                        > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                        > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                        > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                        > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                        >
                        > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                        > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                        > of not putting male/female together.
                        >
                        > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > Tim
                      • Lloyd Solis
                        ... I think that #6 relates to registered scouts , specifically male and female venturers. I don t think they are implying cub scout brothers and their
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 6 4:37 PM
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                          Richard Damon wrote:

                          >
                          > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                          > facility.
                          >
                          > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                          > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                          >
                          > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                          > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                          > scout camping.
                          >
                          > Richard Damon

                          I think that #6 relates to 'registered scouts', specifically male and female venturers.
                          I don't think they are implying cub scout brothers and their sisters.
                          But then, I've made a couple of mistakes already this week in my postings.
                          I'm certainly not going to tell my families that they cannot have their boy children and
                          girl children together with mom and dad in their own tent.

                          YiS

                          Lloyd


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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