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Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

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  • JNDunnMN@aol.com
    Depends on what the pack calls a camping trip . If they re sleeping in tents with their family, then no. If the whole group is sleeping in domirtory type
    Message 1 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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      Depends on what the pack calls a "camping trip". If they're sleeping in tents with their family, then no. If the whole group is sleeping in "domirtory type accomodations" the GTSS says that temporary separation such as blanket or sheet walls must be established to maintain the privacy of the adults & youth.

      --
      YiS,
      Jamie Dunn
      Pack Trainer
      P. 512
      Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
      Cub Scout Training Chair
      3 Rivers District
    • Richard Damon
      The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings. My council will
      Message 2 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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        The Guide to safe scouting says no (as I previously quoted), but I will
        agree that this rule is often not enforced at family camp for siblings.
        My council will even put multiple mixed families inside a large cabin
        together, which is even more off policy.

        Richard Damon
        --
        rbrdamon@... (Home)
        rdamon@... (Work)
        Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
        Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
        Boston Minuteman Council
        I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] [mailto:peter.mullaney@...]

        Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:37 AM
        To: 'scouter_t@yahoogroups.com'
        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

        I can't 'quote' you anything, but a family can use one tent.
        If this is not correct, my council is in big trouble, since
        at our council sponsored 'Cub Scout Family Camping' entire
        families use a single tent.

        Pete M.
        "There is nothing so uncommon, as common sense."
        My dad and probably many others.

        > ----------
        > From:       Tim
        > Reply To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent:       Tuesday, May 6, 2003 9:11 AM
        > To:       scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject:       [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
        >
        > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
        > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
        > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
        > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
        > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
        >
        > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
        > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
        > of not putting male/female together.
        >
        > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
        >
        > Thank you.
        >
        > Tim
        >
        >


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      • Larry D. Ohs, Attorney at Law
        According to the Guide to Safe Scouting, youth protection guidelines apply to both family camping and pack overnighters. I train in BALOO that males and
        Message 3 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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          According to the Guide to Safe Scouting, youth protection guidelines apply
          to both family camping and pack overnighters. I train in BALOO that males
          and females, even within the same family, need to be in separate tents with
          adults of appropriate gender present on the campout.

          Quotes from Guide to Safe Scouting:

          "Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident camping,
          that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program elements in
          overnight settings with two or more family members, including at least one
          BSA member of that family. Parents are responsible for the supervision of
          their children, and Youth Protection guidelines apply."

          "Pack Overnighters ... are pack-organized overnight events involving more
          than one family from a single pack, focused on age-appropriate Cub Scout
          activities and conducted at council-approved locations .... If nonmembers
          (siblings) participate, the event must be structured accordingly to
          accommodate them. BSA health and safety and youth protection guidelines
          apply."

          Larry Ohs
          Cornhusker Council Youth Protection Lead Trainer
          Salt Valley District Training Committee
          Cornhusker Council Venturing Committee, Training Chairman
          2004 Powder Horn Course Director
          "...and a good old Fox, too." W5-63-00


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Tim

          Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
          together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
          (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
          married, but what about mixed siblings. Do they need to be split up on a
          camping trip?
        • Deb Morrow
          Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they wish (one tent, tent for youth &
          Message 4 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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            Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
            the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
            wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
            for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

            Deb Morrow
            corzines@...

            At 09:45 AM 5/6/03 -0400, you wrote:
            > >From the Guide to Safe Scouting
            >
            >I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership
            >
            >Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
            >...
            >4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
            >couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
            >available.
            >
            >5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
            >Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
            >accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
            >youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
            >must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
            >blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
            >area separated from the youth.
            >
            >6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
            >facility.
            >
            >7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
            >other than his or her parent or guardian.
            >
            >Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
            >even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
            >scout camping.
            >
            >Richard Damon
            >--
            >rbrdamon@... (Home)
            >rdamon@... (Work)
            >Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
            >Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
            >Boston Minuteman Council
            >I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
            >Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
            >To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
            >
            >Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
            >together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
            >(except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
            >married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
            >room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
            >
            >The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
            >could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
            >of not putting male/female together.
            >
            >Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
            >
            >Thank you.
            >
            >Tim
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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            >
            >
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            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Wendell Brown
            ... Which family camping are we talking about? This is one of those LOVELY situations in scouting where we potentially have more than one event with a VERY
            Message 5 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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              >Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
              >the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
              >wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
              >for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

              Which "family camping" are we talking about?

              This is one of those LOVELY situations in scouting where we potentially
              have more than one event with a VERY similar name (or description) and
              potentially different requirements..... "Recreational Family Camping",
              "Council Organized Family Camp" and "Pack Overnighters" all involve
              families camping and 2 of the 3 have "Family Camp" in the name but they
              are all different.

              "Recreational Family Camping" is exactly that... your family going
              camping by YOURSELVES with some scout program mixed in. When you camp
              with JUST your family (no other scouts camping with you), the BSA rules
              really don't apply. Of course much of the G2SS is just good common
              sense so it shouldn't be discarded either. ;)

              > http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss03.html#a

              "Council Organized Family Camping" is a horse of a different color.
              This is a BSA (council or district) sponsored and staffed event for
              more than one pack. The G2SS seems to "pass the buck" on safety
              concerns for this type of camp: "Council-organized family camps must be
              conducted in accordance with established standards as given in National
              Standards for Council Family Camping, No. 13-408."

              And then we have to throw in "Pack Overnighters" (which is the primary
              focus of BALOO). Note that of the three types of camping mentioned
              only "Pack Overnighters" has the "BSA health and safety and youth
              protection guidelines apply" listed as a G2SS item.
            • Larry D. Ohs, Attorney at Law
              Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not. Various scenarios: 1. A group
              Message 6 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                Deb -- it depends on the structure of your camping activity and who is camping, not whether you call it family camping or not.

                Various scenarios:

                1. A group of families, who happen to include Cub Scouts, go camping together at a state park. No organized Scouting activity or connection, although the Scouts may work on advancements with their parents. Youth protection guidelines don't apply; families can sleep together.

                2. A group of families, with Cub Scouts in them, camp together at the Council family camp while big brother is there at Boy Scout resident camp. This is included in G2SS as "recreational family camping" -- "Scouting families camp as a family unit outside of an organized program. It is a nonstructured camping experience, but is conducted within a Scouting framework on local council-owned or -managed property." Do youth protection guidelines apply? Probably not. Families sleep together in my limited experience.

                3. Families from more than one Cub Scout pack camp at a Council-organized overnight event, such as Fun With Son/Dad and Lad/Mom and Me. Youth protection guidelines (and National Standards for Council Family Camping) apply.

                4. A group of families from one pack go camping at a council-approved state park as a monthly pack activity. Cub Scout activities are conducted by pack and den leaders. Youth protection guidelines apply to this Pack Overnighter. BALOO-trained leader must be in charge and a local tour permit is required.

                Larry Ohs
                Cornhusker Council Youth Protection Lead Trainer

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Deb Morrow


                Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
                the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
                wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
                for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

                Deb Morrow
                corzines@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard Damon
                Deb, It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the BSA defines family camping is: Family camping: an outdoor camping experience,
                Message 7 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                  Deb,
                  It may not be the way YOU want to define family camping, but the way the
                  BSA defines family camping is:

                  Family camping: an outdoor camping experience, other than resident
                  camping, that involves Cub Scouting, Boy Scouting, or Venturing program
                  elements in overnight settings with two or more family members,
                  including at least one BSA member of that family. Parents are
                  responsible for the supervision of their children, and Youth Protection
                  guidelines apply.

                  And Youth Protection guidelines state:

                  Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                  facility.

                  So male and female siblings may not sleep in the same sleeping facility,
                  which includes tents.

                  It may be true that this rule should be revised, and it is true that
                  this rule is commonly ignored, but it is the current rule.

                  Richard Damon
                  --
                  rbrdamon@... (Home)
                  rdamon@... (Work)
                  Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                  Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                  Boston Minuteman Council
                  I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Deb Morrow [mailto:corzines@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 10:37 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                  Folks, This is not for Family Camping! Family Camping is where
                  the entire family camps together in whatever configuration they
                  wish (one tent, tent for youth & tent for adults, etc.), specifically
                  for Tiger, Wolves, and Bears!

                  Deb Morrow
                  corzines@...
                • John D. Halter
                  I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to participants seem to
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                    I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a co-ed
                    crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
                    seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
                    that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                    participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                    tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit most
                    families from being able to camp.

                    Thank you,

                    John Halter
                    Cubmaster
                    Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                    www.pack230.com
                    Assistant Scoutmaster
                    Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                    Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                    ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
                    To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


                    From the Guide to Safe Scouting

                    I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership

                    Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
                    ...
                    4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
                    couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
                    available.

                    5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
                    Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
                    accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
                    youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
                    must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
                    blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
                    area separated from the youth.

                    6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                    facility.

                    7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                    other than his or her parent or guardian.

                    Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                    even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                    scout camping.

                    Richard Damon
                    --
                    rbrdamon@... (Home)
                    rdamon@... (Work)
                    Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                    Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                    Boston Minuteman Council
                    I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                    Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                    together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                    (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                    married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                    room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?

                    The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                    could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                    of not putting male/female together.

                    Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?

                    Thank you.

                    Tim



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                  • Richard Damon
                    Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is not a scout) from
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                      Unfortunately, if this rule only applied to co-ed crews then during
                      family camping there is nothing keeping his 15 year old sister (who is
                      not a scout) from sleeping with another boys 16 year old brother (who is
                      not a scout) (unless the parent enforced their own rules, and some might
                      not). Notice the use of the word "participant" and not "scout" or
                      "member", to broaden the scope of the rule to include everyone
                      participating in the event. I will agree that there probably SHOULD be
                      an exception to allow a family to all tent together at family camp, the
                      rules unfortunately do not currently have one.

                      Richard Damon
                      --
                      rbrdamon@... (Home)
                      rdamon@... (Work)
                      Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                      Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                      Boston Minuteman Council
                      I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: John D. Halter [mailto:john@...]
                      Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 1:44 PM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements

                          I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
                      co-ed
                      crew, not to brothers and sisters.  All other references to
                      "participants"
                      seem to indicate a registered scout.  Common sense would seem to dictate
                      that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                      participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                      tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally.  If anything, that would prohibit
                      most
                      families from being able to camp.

                      Thank you,

                      John Halter
                      Cubmaster
                      Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                      www.pack230.com
                      Assistant Scoutmaster
                      Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                      Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                      ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too!   SR442
                    • Debbie Beer
                      Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians. Having brother
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                        Family camping is different as noted in previous e-mails. Bothers and
                        Sisters may sleep in the same tent with their parents and/or guardians.
                        Having brother and sister in the same tent without parents or guardians is
                        discouraged.

                        A little common sense goes a long way in these matters.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "John D. Halter" <john@...>
                        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 12:43 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements


                        > I would think that the rule mentioned below (#6) is referring to a
                        co-ed
                        > crew, not to brothers and sisters. All other references to "participants"
                        > seem to indicate a registered scout. Common sense would seem to dictate
                        > that since the Cub Scout program is supposed to promote family
                        > participation, why would I require 8 yr old Jimmy to sleep in a separate
                        > tent from his 6 yr old sister Sally. If anything, that would prohibit
                        most
                        > families from being able to camp.
                        >
                        > Thank you,
                        >
                        > John Halter
                        > Cubmaster
                        > Pack 230 Apopka Florida
                        > www.pack230.com
                        > Assistant Scoutmaster
                        > Troop 936 Longwood Florida
                        > Wekiwa District Round Table Staff
                        > ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Richard Damon" <rdamon@...>
                        > To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 09:45
                        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                        >
                        >
                        > >From the Guide to Safe Scouting
                        >
                        > I - Youth Protection and Adult Leadership
                        >
                        > Leadership Requirements for Trips and Outings
                        > ...
                        > 4. Male and female leaders require separate sleeping facilities. Married
                        > couples may share the same quarters if appropriate facilities are
                        > available.
                        >
                        > 5. Single-room or dormitory-type accommodations for Scouting units:
                        > Adults and youth of the same gender may occupy dormitory or single-room
                        > accommodations, provided there is a minimum of two adults and four
                        > youth. Both adults are required to be youth-protection trained. Adults
                        > must establish separation barriers or privacy zones such as temporary
                        > blanket or sheet walls in order to keep their sleeping area and dressing
                        > area separated from the youth.
                        >
                        > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                        > facility.
                        >
                        > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                        > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                        >
                        > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                        > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                        > scout camping.
                        >
                        > Richard Damon
                        > --
                        > rbrdamon@... (Home)
                        > rdamon@... (Work)
                        > Pack Trainer, Pack 306, Arlington, MA
                        > Member of Committee (Secretary, Training Coordinator), Troop 302
                        > Boston Minuteman Council
                        > I used to be a fox (NE-I-209)
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Tim [mailto:aquaboy2001@...]
                        > Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2003 9:12 AM
                        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [Scouter_T] Sleeping Arrangements
                        >
                        > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                        > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                        > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                        > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                        > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                        >
                        > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                        > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                        > of not putting male/female together.
                        >
                        > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
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                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                        >
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Tim
                        Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases, the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would come out and state it
                        Message 11 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                          Thank you all for your replies. It helps, although, as in many cases,
                          the BSA National Standards are on the foggy side. I wish they would
                          come out and state it clearly "NO, siblings of different sexes do not
                          camp together." OR "Yes, it is OK for siblings of different sexes to
                          camp together." Hopefully, they will update that standard soon.

                          Tim


                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Tim" <aquaboy2001@n...> wrote:
                          > Regarding Cub Scout family camping: When families are camping
                          > together, we have made it clear that adults don't sleep with children
                          > (except their own), male/female adults do not sleep together unless
                          > married, but what about mixed siblings. Many perhaps sleep in the same
                          > room at home. Do they need to be split up on a camping trip?
                          >
                          > The question came up in a recent Baloo training. The only answer we
                          > could give at the time was to split them up according to the standard
                          > of not putting male/female together.
                          >
                          > Anyone have experience with this or know any policy?
                          >
                          > Thank you.
                          >
                          > Tim
                        • Lloyd Solis
                          ... I think that #6 relates to registered scouts , specifically male and female venturers. I don t think they are implying cub scout brothers and their
                          Message 12 of 15 , May 6, 2003
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                            Richard Damon wrote:

                            >
                            > 6. Male and female youth participants will not share the same sleeping
                            > facility.
                            >
                            > 7. When staying in tents, no youth will stay in the tent of an adult
                            > other than his or her parent or guardian.
                            >
                            > Point 6 is clear that youth of opposite sex do not sleep together, so
                            > even if siblings share a room at home, they should not do so while on
                            > scout camping.
                            >
                            > Richard Damon

                            I think that #6 relates to 'registered scouts', specifically male and female venturers.
                            I don't think they are implying cub scout brothers and their sisters.
                            But then, I've made a couple of mistakes already this week in my postings.
                            I'm certainly not going to tell my families that they cannot have their boy children and
                            girl children together with mom and dad in their own tent.

                            YiS

                            Lloyd


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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