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Re: [Scouter_T] Another BALOO question

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  • Chris Jacobi
    ... These are not part of BALOO training because these are not age appropriate activities for cub scouts. (Personally I even get scarred sometimes when BOY
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 10, 2002
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      >The biggest lack in BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on
      >appropriate safety guidelines for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard
      >information

      These are not part of BALOO training because these are not age
      appropriate activities for cub scouts. (Personally I even get scarred
      sometimes when BOY scouts use axes)

      Chris
    • Teresa Hall
      Have any of you added material to the BALOO training? We ve only taught it twice, and very by-the-book. We taught it last weekend (November 2) and this
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 10, 2002
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        Have any of you added material to the BALOO training? We've only taught it
        twice, and very "by-the-book." We taught it last weekend (November 2) and
        this weekend we had our pack campout, with our pack's five new BALOO-trained
        leaders supplementing our one trained in 2001. So the teachings were fresh
        on my mind as I surveyed our group of about 35 families (100 people).

        Our campouts get better every year -- didn't have to make a single drinking
        reminder and only one smoking reminder, no unexpected "letting Joe sleep in
        the tent with us" arrangements that I saw or heard about. The first aid kit
        was right beside the Class 1 forms, fully stocked. No boys got lost, and
        only one mother. <G> A neighboring pack, whose CC is one of my bestest
        trainers and a friend, too, ended up right next door and we decided to share
        a Saturday night campfire with results that please both sides. (They run a
        great campfire program and we build great fires.) The weather Friday night
        and Saturday were great, if a bit too hot.

        The biggest lack in BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on
        appropriate safety guidelines for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard
        information. I've only been exposed to this in the Webelos leader outdoor
        training -- and we had not adequately prepared ourselves OR the Pack Dads
        who brought their own wood and axes and merrily chopped wood and left axes
        all over the place. Next year an adult-only axe yard will be set up first
        thing -- but are we the only pack that has dads who split wood on site?
        Shouldn't this be in BALOO somewhere? Or did I just overlook it in reading
        the syllabus? (I didn't take the course, I was a trainer and was not in the
        room for each and every session. But none of my pack members who TOOK the
        training remembered anything about it.)

        I'm rambling, and had best get back to the television to continue my five
        straight hours of local tornado coverage. We're out of the basement now,
        though, and blessedly no apparent damage in our neighborhoods. Many in our
        state and elsewhere were not so lucky tonight ...

        Teresa Hall
        Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
        Vulcan District Training Coord
        Greater AL Council
      • Sean Scott
        Teresa asked: Have any of you added material to the BALOO training? We ve only taught it twice, and very by-the-book. The biggest lack in BALOO, as I
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 10, 2002
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          Teresa asked: Have any of you added material to the BALOO training? We've
          only taught it twice, and very "by-the-book." <snip> The biggest lack in
          BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on appropriate safety guidelines
          for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard information.


          Teresa,

          To answer your second question, we tell our attendees that they should bring
          the wood prepared and that axes and saws are not a Cub Scout age-appropriate
          activity. Pre-cut and split wood is easier to transport to and from camp
          anyway, and doesn't require bringing tools or preparation. Plus, to quote
          the adage, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail,"
          having an axe makes one want to chop something, including the native
          vegetation.

          If your parents are splitting wood and leaving the tools lying about, they
          should certainly be educated about the use of axes and saws. If I'm not
          mistaken, it's listed in the G2SS.

          As for adding material to BALOO, the syllabus is a framework from which to
          work. You need to address the learning objectives and cover the material,
          but I believe that it needs to be added to (but not subtracted from) to meet
          your local circumstances. For example, if you live in an area where
          tick-borne illnesses are a concern, it should be a topic of discussion.

          Our district training team actually made significant modifications to the
          BALOO schedule, which we feel improve the flow and the learning that takes
          place. We've taught the class that way several times, as have some of our
          other districts. Several other councils have adopted our enhancements (or a
          variation of them), including Orange County Council, where my son and I were
          privileged to be guest trainers for their BALOO event yesterday.

          Of course, a healthy amount of pizzazz is welcome in any training,
          especially one that's eight hours long! Being a new course, some teams may
          want to get accustomed to the content and flow before they start adapting
          it. We actually dry-ran the training as a team before making the decision to
          change things, and even made changes after the second and third courses we
          presented before settling on the version we use now. If you're interested,
          I'll send a copy of our schedule and trainer's guide as a Word document.

          YiS,
          Sean
        • Richard Damon
          I think the issue is rules for the adults using axes and saws to safeguard the children. I could see a desire to teach some of the basic of axe safety to the
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 10, 2002
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            I think the issue is rules for the adults using axes and saws to safeguard
            the children. I could see a desire to teach some of the basic of axe safety
            to the adults. It also serves to remind them that the cubs don't use axes.

            Richard Damon
            Pack Trainer, Pack 306
            Member of Committee, Troup 302
            Boston Minuteman Council
            Arlington, MA
            --
            rbrdamon@... (Home)
            rdamon@... (Work)



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Chris Jacobi [mailto:jacobi@...]
            Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:26 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Another BALOO question

            >The biggest lack in BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on
            >appropriate safety guidelines for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard
            >information

            These are not part of BALOO training because these are not age
            appropriate activities for cub scouts. (Personally I even get scarred
            sometimes when BOY scouts use axes)

            Chris
          • Thomas G Bingaman
            There should be no fear of a youth using a saw or a axe if they are properly trained and supervised. That is what the tote & chip card is for, and the
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 10, 2002
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              There should be no fear of a youth using a saw or a axe if
              they are properly trained and supervised. That is what the
              tote & chip card is for, and the requirements that are in the
              "Scout Handbook". We must let our youth mature and become
              adults. They can not be kept from harms way they need
              to be trained to stay safe.

              Tom "B"

              Chris Jacobi wrote:
              >>The biggest lack in BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on
              >>appropriate safety guidelines for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard
              >>information
              >
              >
              > These are not part of BALOO training because these are not age
              > appropriate activities for cub scouts. (Personally I even get scarred
              > sometimes when BOY scouts use axes)
              >
              > Chris
              >
              >
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
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              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Scouter Chuck
              Thomas G Bingaman wrote... ... And that is exactly the point. BALOO training is for Cub leaders, not Boy Scout leaders. These were not Boy Scouts, with Tote
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 11, 2002
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                Thomas G Bingaman wrote...

                > There should be no fear of a youth using a saw or a axe if
                > they are properly trained and supervised. That is what the
                > tote & chip card is for, and the requirements that are in the
                > "Scout Handbook".

                And that is exactly the point. BALOO training is for Cub leaders,
                not Boy Scout leaders. These were not Boy Scouts, with Tote n'
                Chip cards showing they had been properly trained, nor Boy Scout
                Handbooks from which to be trained.

                I'll tell my ax horror story, now:

                I work camporee staff, and a few years ago we had a camporee at one
                of the "local" general purpose Scout Camps.

                As I was walking thru the area that was assigned to my old Troop (I
                was still working with it at the time), I saw 5 young Scouts
                gathered around a piece of log, with one boy in the center flailing
                away at it with a hand-ax. About every 8 or 9 strokes, the edge of
                the ax would actually come in contact with the wood. the other
                boys were no more that 3 feet from him or the wood.

                I let out a deep booming "Who's the Boy Scout here?", and every-
                thing stopped. One boy identified himself as a Boy Scout. The one
                with the ax. I began asking him some questions on ax safety, and
                it soon became clear that he hadn't the slightest idea of what I
                was talking about. Still thinking I was dealing with a young Boy
                Scout, I assigned him some reading on ax safety from the Boy Scout
                Handbook.

                He turned out to be a Webelos, just like the other four. But I had
                made my point, and they knew that in my opinion, someone could have
                been hurt by the ax.

                I also found out that one of the parents calmly observing my
                lecture turned out to be the father of the now scared to death
                Webelos. Talking with him later, he agreed with me completely on
                the ax safety, and remarked that the boy was lucky it was only me
                that caught him. The boy had taken the hand-ax out of the car
                without permission. I never did lift that assignment, BTW. ;)

                > We must let our youth mature and become adults. They can not be
                > kept from harms way they need to be trained to stay safe.

                I am 100% in agreement with you, as long as what they learn is age
                appropriate. Axes and saws are not age appropriate to a Webelos
                Den. Webelos are not Boy Scouts -- yet.

                And for the record, I am not a big fan of the growing restriction
                on the use of axes, saws, and knives in the Boy Scouts. They are
                tools that the boys need to be properly trained to use, not told
                there is no appropriate use for them (such as my sheath knive with
                the 3+' blade and the Universal Emblem on the snap of the handle
                strap.

                YiS,

                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                I "used to be" an Antelope! WEM-10-95 Member DNRC
                Firebird District Committee Member at Large -- Grand Canyon Council
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                "How is it one careless match can start a forest fire, but it
                takes a whole box to start a campfire?" -- Email Carlinism
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Scouter Chuck
                Richard Damon wrote... ... Excellent point. Rule for cubs and Webelos with axes: (With apologies to Eddie the Eagle) 1. Stop! 2. Don t Touch! 3. Walk Away.
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 11, 2002
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                  Richard Damon wrote...

                  > I think the issue is rules for the adults using axes and saws to safeguard
                  > the children. I could see a desire to teach some of the basic of axe safety
                  > to the adults. It also serves to remind them that the cubs don't use axes.

                  Excellent point.
                  Rule for cubs and Webelos with axes: (With apologies to Eddie
                  the Eagle)
                  1. Stop!
                  2. Don't Touch!
                  3. Walk Away. ;)

                  Rule for Adults with axes at a Cub event:
                  Handle it properly and carefully. Remember, the boys are watching
                  you. They will only remember the things that you do wrong.

                  YiS,

                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  I "used to be" an Antelope! WEM-10-95 Member DNRC
                  Firebird District Committee Member at Large -- Grand Canyon Council
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                • Teresa Hall
                  Thank you, Richard. I agree that axes and saws have no business in Cub Scouts hands, that was never the intent. However, the BALOO is directed towards adults
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 11, 2002
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                    Thank you, Richard.

                    I agree that axes and saws have no business in Cub Scouts hands, that was
                    never the intent. However, the BALOO is directed towards adults with few
                    outdoors skills how to conduct a pack campout with boys AND FAMILY MEMBERS.
                    The boys are a snap. Take them out and they are happy. Provide a program?
                    They'll participate. Leave them without a program? They'll collect bugs and
                    have leaf boat races and run for hours. In my experience, the problems in
                    pack campouts come from the parents. And not necessarily in any malicious or
                    ill-meant way, just parents who haven't pored through G2SS and don't even
                    consider why you don't do certain things with Scouts. Educate, educate,
                    educate, educate. I'll bet I can find an extra few minutes to tuck some axe
                    safety in BALOO next time -- and I'll guarantee we'll have an adult-only
                    axeyard pack campout, or a "split it before you come" rule.

                    Teresa
                    Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
                    Vulcan District Cub Training Chair
                    Greater AL Council
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Richard Damon
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: 11/11/02 12:49 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Another BALOO question

                    I think the issue is rules for the adults using axes and saws to
                    safeguard
                    the children. I could see a desire to teach some of the basic of axe
                    safety
                    to the adults. It also serves to remind them that the cubs don't use
                    axes.

                    Richard Damon
                    Pack Trainer, Pack 306
                    Member of Committee, Troup 302
                    Boston Minuteman Council
                    Arlington, MA
                    --
                    rbrdamon@... (Home)
                    rdamon@... (Work)



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Chris Jacobi [mailto:jacobi@...]
                    Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:26 AM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Another BALOO question

                    >The biggest lack in BALOO, as I see it tonight, is information on
                    >appropriate safety guidelines for uses of axes and saws -- ie, woodyard
                    >information

                    These are not part of BALOO training because these are not age
                    appropriate activities for cub scouts. (Personally I even get scarred
                    sometimes when BOY scouts use axes)

                    Chris





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                  • Kevin Pate
                    ... If you opt for the latter, you need only add about 15 seconds to the BALOO syllabus. For campfire wood, you either use dead wood that you find on the
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 11, 2002
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                      --- Teresa Hall <tphall@...> wrote:
                      > ... I can find an extra few minutes to tuck some
                      > axe safety in BALOO next time -- and I'll guarantee
                      > we'll have an adult-only axeyard pack campout, or
                      > a "split it before you come" rule.

                      If you opt for the latter, you need only add about 15
                      seconds to the BALOO syllabus.
                      For campfire wood, you either use dead wood that
                      you find on the ground (if permissible at your
                      site location) or you bring in your own wood.
                      In either instance, the safe use of axes should be
                      saved for Boy Scout events.
                      For the protection of all your Scouts and their
                      siblings, split your wood at home. Axes should not
                      be brought to your pack overnighter and a pack
                      overnighter is not the proper environment to wow
                      your pack families with a Paul Bunyon routine.
                      Our next topic is ....

                      Kevin from Norman, America
                      who can't think of one good reason for an
                      axe to be a special guest at a pack overnighter.
                      But then, I've yet to fathom why Cub/Webelos
                      resident camps will sell a hot spark to any
                      Cub/Webelos Scout who wanders into the trading
                      post with a few quarters in his pocket.


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