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Re: [Scouter_T] Absolute Training requirements

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  • leslie (in Michigan)
    I have read and re-read Scott s post and I can t find anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because I agree with all he said. ... Leslie Herman Blue
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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      I have read and re-read Scott's post and I can't find
      anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because
      I agree with all he said.
      ---
      Leslie Herman
      Blue Water Council
      Council Training Chairman
      http://www.powwow-online.net


      --- Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
      > I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout
      > way, a mandate of training.
      >
      > "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"
      >
      > Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth
      > Deserves a WELL Trained
      > Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't
      > the subject of this
      > post...
      >
      > If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the
      > last few pages are
      > devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's
      > leaders. They present
      > methods and techniques for achieving this in your
      > district.
      >
      > If I recall, the new training material itself
      > includes mention of this.
      > Training Development Conference emphasises it. My
      > Philmont conference, "New
      > Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads
      > that 100% was the minimum
      > acceptable number.
      >
      > I think that if your training team doesn't want to
      > train people, and they
      > want a way out of doing it, you could say that there
      > isn't a hard and fast
      > rule about training a leader. To do certain things,
      > leaders must have
      > certain training.
      >
      > But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they
      > want an excuse to get
      > lots of training in, and just need a justification
      > to do it, well...
      >
      > "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"
      >
      > YiS,
      > Sean
      >
      >
      >
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    • Teresa Hall
      Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott s comments I think that if your training team doesn t want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you could
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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        Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott's comments "I think that if your training
        team doesn't want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you
        could say that there isn't a hard and fast rule about training a leader."
        Since that's what some of us were saying - that there is no hard and fast
        rule - I thought the comment was directed to us.

        Now that Scott has given the history behind his comments, I can see that is
        not what he meant, and I apologize for "getting bowed up" as my husband
        would say. (If you've never heard that phrase, imagine a cat...)

        As for being insulted about the qualification that every boy deserves a
        WELL-trained leader - never!!! I agree completely. I want my training staff
        to be prepared, experienced, articulate, likeable, enthusiastic, and on the
        cutting edge of what's happening in Cub Scouting. (So my staff is not huge,
        but it's growing!!) To the last qualification, Scott, your posts and scans
        from Philmont have been invaluable, and I've been sharing them with my
        training staff so they will be "in the know" when we have our biggest
        training session of the year on 9/28. Thanks.

        Have a great weekend, everybody!
        Teresa
        *****************************************
        Teresa Hall
        Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
        Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
        Greater AL Council
        *****************************************
      • nsmith1105
        ... I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and it s clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic trained for their
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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          David wrote:
          > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you.
          > What are the current absolute training musts?

          I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and
          it's clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic
          trained for their position. I face this same question in trying
          to get the leaders in our Troop trained - they ask, "So what if I
          don't get trained?"

          So perhaps that is the way to approach the question "what are the
          training musts?". Ask it this way:

          "What are the consequences of not having a given training?"

          (And I would limit that to *direct* consequences, as we could all
          write volumes about the effect of untrained leaders on a unit's
          program.)

          Examples:
          * If you don't have the Basic Training for your position [NLE,
          position specific, also IOLS for SM/ASM] you can't wear the
          "Trained" strip.
          * If you don't have Basic Training, you can't go to Wood Badge.
          * If you don't have Basic and YPT, you can't earn your Training award.
          * If you don't have a trained unit leader and assistant, your unit
          can't earn the Quality Unit Award.
          * If you don't have certain trainings for outings, your Tour Permit
          will not be approved (which should mean you don't take the outing)
          - BALOO for pack overnighters
          - OWL/WLOT for Webelos den overnighters
          - Safe Swim / Safety Afloat for appropriate water activities
          - YPT and/or Risk Management (council specific variations)
          * (From Stu's post) In certain councils, if you don't take the
          training, your registration is dropped next recharter.

          ... and so forth. I think once you say a training is mandatory, you
          start having to explain what mandatory means. Once you put concrete
          consequences down, you are on firmer ground; but you also start to
          notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level)
          for an individual who doesn't value training.

          Since we want all leaders to be trained, it's up to us to sell the
          value of the training they get.

          Yours In Scouting,
          Neal Smith
          Troop 290, Manchester NH
        • Dan Kurtenbach
          I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of Fun with a Purpose to teach young people doesn t apply the same theory to teaching adults. The
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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            I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of "Fun with a
            Purpose" to teach young people doesn't apply the same theory to teaching
            adults.

            The biggest obstacle to getting people trained is that for most trainees,
            training is boring and training is work (regardless of how well or how
            dynamically the course is actually presented). The Scouter who can easily
            find time for a weekend campout just can't seem to squeeze a 5-hour course
            into his or her schedule. Almost everyone will acknowledge that training
            has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not
            outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom
            all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
            And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
            anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the
            whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge
            that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but
            that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them.

            Now, we do things to try to make training less tedious, more interesting,
            more interactive; but we're still working from the "Purpose, with some Fun"
            model. We can have great success that way. But I'd still like to see a
            training system for Scout leaders actually built on Scout training theory.

            Dan Kurtenbach
            Fairfax, VA
          • Dan Smith
            From: Dan Kurtenbach Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 8, 2002
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              From: Dan Kurtenbach
              "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know). And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them."

              How about periodic testing to weed out those unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the boys. Oh, I can hear the gnashing of teeth now but a person should have some qualifications before the boys are subjected to them.

              YIS,
              Dan Smith
              Chattahoochee District Commissioner
              Northeast Georgia Council












              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dan Kurtenbach
              ... Auntie Beans wrote: I expect it s because they [BSA] either have so little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for them, or they
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                --------------------
                Auntie Beans wrote: "I expect it's because they [BSA] either have so
                little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for
                them, or they are afraid that requiring training will scare people away
                from volunteering in the first place."

                And Neal Smith wrote: "So perhaps that is the way to approach the
                question "what are the training musts?". Ask it this way: "What are the
                consequences of not having a given training?" . . . [Y]ou also start to
                notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level) for
                an individual who doesn't value training."

                And Dan Smith wrote: "How about periodic testing to weed out those
                unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and
                stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the
                boys."
                --------------------

                It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why not
                reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where the
                incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and activities
                that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                Put another way, we need to integrate the skills and knowledge that are
                now the subject of what we call "training" into the normal week-to-week
                and month-to-month activities that Scouters come for and participate in
                and enjoy.

                Just like we do with our youth.

                Dan Kurtenbach
                Fairfax, VA
              • emb021
                ... some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                  --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Smith" <dansmith@d...> wrote:
                  > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                  > "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of
                  some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
                  inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all
                  day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
                  And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
                  anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through
                  the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will
                  acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't
                  know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole
                  day "worthwhile" for them."
                  >

                  If there are people with such an attitude, they need to change it.

                  There are many times I have taken training courses where I knew all
                  the materials (and probably could teach it), but took it anyway so
                  that I could say it had taken it. While I knew it was a bit of a
                  waste of my time, I did NOT go into it with the attitude that I had
                  to 'endure' it. I went in with the attitude that I could learn
                  something from the other participants, and maybe contribute stuff
                  that would benefit others. Also, some people THINK they know it all,
                  and really don't. Going thru training hopefully will make sure they
                  do know it.

                  Michael Brown
                  SW Florida Council, BSA
                • bnelson45
                  I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really didn t need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction in the course. bill
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                    I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                    didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                    in the course.

                    bill
                  • bnelson45
                    ... not ... the ... activities ... We are starting to do some adult training during the troop meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids hair. bill
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                      --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@h...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                      > trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why
                      not
                      > reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where
                      the
                      > incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and
                      activities
                      > that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                      > natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                      We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                      meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                      bill
                    • Dan Kurtenbach
                      ... and ... At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                        Bill Nelson wrote:

                        > We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                        > meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                        and

                        >I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                        >didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                        >in the course.

                        At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the
                        closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                        the breeze about summer camp, the boys, and the Troop calendar, among other
                        things. This is a regular feature of our meetings, and one of the reasons
                        adults show up. Perhaps these kinds of sessions would be "targets of
                        opportunity" for covering topics that Scouters need to know.

                        Dan Kurtenbach
                        Fairfax, VA
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