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RE: [Scouter_T] Absolute Training requirements

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  • Teresa Hall
    For any individual Scouter, I would say there are NO absolute training musts. You can hold any job merely by registering. There are absolute MUSTS for units
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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      For any individual Scouter, I would say there are NO absolute training
      musts. You can hold any job merely by registering.

      There are absolute MUSTS for units that wish to engage in specific
      activities. Any unit that wants to engage in travel that requires a Tour
      Permit MUST have someone Youth Protection Trained (at least when the new
      Tour Permits are circulated, based on what I'm hearing from several
      sources). If a pack wants to do pack overnighters, they MUST have a BALOO
      trained leader. If a unit wishes to swim, they MUST have someone with SSD,
      and so on down the list of required activity certifications.

      But for Joe or Jane Scouter, nope. That's why there is the "carrot" of
      training awards, trained percentages on Quality Unit Awards, trained emblems
      and the like -- to encourage this very helpful VOLUNTARY investment of time
      in improving your program.

      One woman's opinion!
      Teresa Hall

      *****************************************
      Teresa Hall
      Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
      Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
      Greater AL Council
      *****************************************
    • Richard Damon
      David, National places no required training to be a Scout Leader. It does put training requirements on some activities: BALOO for Cub Camping, Safe Swim
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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        David,
        National places no required training to be a Scout Leader. It does put
        training requirements on some activities: BALOO for Cub Camping, Safe Swim
        Defense/Safety Afloat for aquatics, and many other specific training for
        specific activities. There is no explicit statement that leaders do not need
        to be trained, because National allows for Chartering organizations to add
        requirements for their leaders. A CO could require that leader be trained,
        either as soon as possible or even before taking a position (which would
        make it hard to recruit parents as DL). Also while national does not require
        training it does encourage it. To require training before becoming a leader
        would also make it very hard to quickly recruit leaders and get the on post.

        Richard Damon
        Pack Trainer, Pack 306
        Member of Committee, Troup 302
        Boston Minuteman Council
        Arlington, MA
        --
        rbrdamon@... (Home)
        rdamon@... (Work)
      • emb021
        ... night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years experience. ... are the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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          --- In scouter_t@y..., "David D. Vaughan" <DVAUGHAN@b...> wrote:
          > We had a very long discussion at out Council Training meting last
          night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years
          experience.
          >
          > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you. What
          are the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
          training sequence. I need to know what is absolutely required by
          National for a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout Leader. Much to my surprise
          several of our Training Team stated that the only true required
          training is BALOO for Cub Leaders if they wish to take their units
          camping. I have always thought that all primary leaders must be
          trained for their position. I need what ever you know referenced by
          source and page.
          >

          The only training absolutes I know of are:

          * Youth Protection Training

          * Safety training (Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, etc)

          * What is needed to be 'Basically Training' for your position.

          Michael Brown
        • Stu Allen
          ... Well David, you re asking us to prove a negative which is as a rule hard anyways; I don t think you re going to find a reference in some BSA publication
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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            On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 10:45:10PM -0700, David D. Vaughan wrote:
            >
            > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you. What are
            > the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
            > training sequence. I need to know what is absolutely required by
            > National for a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout Leader. Much to my surprise
            > several of our Training Team stated that the only true required training
            > is BALOO for Cub Leaders if they wish to take their units camping. I have
            > always thought that all primary leaders must be trained for their position.
            > I need what ever you know referenced by source and page.

            Well David, you're asking us to prove a negative which is as a rule hard
            anyways; I don't think you're going to find a reference in some BSA
            publication that says, "Leaders don't have to be trained."! :)

            But those folks on your training team are right -- there are currently
            NO Nationally-required training courses for any Scout leader!

            Now I believe there *are* some councils that have made training
            mandatory -- get trained or get dropped from the charter. But that
            is just NOT true on a National level.

            There are also certain situations that have mandatory training
            requirements, such as:

            Safe Swim Defense for swimming activities
            Safety Afloat for boating
            YP for leaders attending National Jamboree or Philmont
            BALOO for Pack Overnighters
            Camp School for camp directors and other key camp staffers


            For Quality Unit the unit leader and some of the other leaders
            need to have completed 'basic training' for their position.

            There is also this statement: "One registered adult is
            assigned responsibility for Youth Protection Training".

            Personally I find that sentence rather odd. What does "responsibility
            for YPT" mean? Does that mean that person needs to have YPT? One
            would think so, but why doesn't it just *say* *that*, if that's what
            it means? Is it this person's job to try and get the other leaders
            to attend YPT? Or is this person supposed to conduct the YP awareness
            for the youth of the unit, using the BSA-supplied videos?

            You've also mentioned the 'recommended training sequence' which is
            what a leader needs to attend to be considered a "trained" leader
            and wear the "Trained" strip on his/her uniform. Again this is not
            mandatory though -- and interestingly enough does not even include
            Youth Protection Training! Sure, if a leader wants to earn the 'knot'
            for his/her position they must attend YPT, but to be "Trained" they
            do not.

            YiS,
            Stu

            --
            Stu Allen email: allensr@...
            CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
            Spencerport NY
          • Sean Scott
            I d say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training. Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader Of course, I prefer the modified, Every
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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              I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training.

              "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"

              Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth Deserves a WELL Trained
              Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't the subject of this
              post...

              If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the last few pages are
              devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's leaders. They present
              methods and techniques for achieving this in your district.

              If I recall, the new training material itself includes mention of this.
              Training Development Conference emphasises it. My Philmont conference, "New
              Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads that 100% was the minimum
              acceptable number.

              I think that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they
              want a way out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast
              rule about training a leader. To do certain things, leaders must have
              certain training.

              But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they want an excuse to get
              lots of training in, and just need a justification to do it, well...

              "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"

              YiS,
              Sean
            • Teresa Hall
              You know, Sean, one would not have to read very hard between the lines to find this an insulting post. I suspect that anyone who bothers to be on this list is
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                You know, Sean, one would not have to read very hard between the lines to
                find this an insulting post. I suspect that anyone who bothers to be on this
                list is just as dedicated and gung-ho about training as you are.

                Your question was "What are the current absolute training musts?" with a
                subject line of "Absolute Training requirements." I submit that the answers
                you were given are perfectly correct -- there ARE no absolute training
                requirements. An absolute requirement would be a nationally imposed
                requirement, in this forum. A council might also impose a absolute
                requirement for its members. But nationally no such REQUIREMENT exists.

                In accreditation, for example, one differentiates between "must" statements
                and "should" statements. A must statement is an absolute minimum standard.
                If that standard is not met, the accreditation is pulled or the program is
                closed. A "should" statement reflects best practices. "Every boy deserves a
                (well)-trained leader" is a "should" statement. Otherwise it would read
                "Every boy must have a trained leader in order to participate in the
                program."
                A team "should" consider 100% trained as a minimum acceptable number -- also
                a best practice goal.

                I am a literalist. I interpret the rules as rules, and that goes just as
                much for ones I agree with as ones I disagree with. I would no more tell a
                leader that BSA says there is an absolute training requirement than I would
                tell a new Tiger leader they could go den camping. Your statement "I think
                that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they want a way
                out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast rule about
                training a leader" is obviously the way you see it, but I would consider it
                dishonest. I tell people in my district WHY they SHOULD be trained, then
                make it fun and convenient for them to meet my expectations. I would never
                tell someone they MUST be trained, because it just isn't so. (I do spend
                plenty of time telling Cubmasters they MUST have a BALOO trained leader
                before they do a pack overnighter, however!!)

                But what SHOULD BE the absolute training requirements? What do we, as
                trainers across the nation, **consider** the best practice before one leads
                a program? What are our goals as training team members? Entirely different
                questions. Entirely different answers. But I don't think that's what you
                asked, and apparently none of the other respondents did either.

                Yours in Scouting gung-ho spirit,
                Teresa Hall

                ps - You were going to tell us more about the diamond-shaped Webelos badge
                not going away! Could you expound on that, when you have the time? I've been
                very grateful for your Philmont posts and information. TH

                *****************************************
                Teresa Hall
                Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
                Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
                Greater AL Council
                *****************************************


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Sean Scott [mailto:sscott@...]
                Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 11:23 AM
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Absolute Training requirements


                I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training.

                "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"

                Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth Deserves a WELL Trained
                Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't the subject of this
                post...

                If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the last few pages are
                devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's leaders. They present
                methods and techniques for achieving this in your district.

                If I recall, the new training material itself includes mention of this.
                Training Development Conference emphasises it. My Philmont conference, "New
                Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads that 100% was the minimum
                acceptable number.

                I think that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they
                want a way out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast
                rule about training a leader. To do certain things, leaders must have
                certain training.

                But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they want an excuse to get
                lots of training in, and just need a justification to do it, well...

                "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"

                YiS,
                Sean




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              • Sean Scott
                Teresa (and all), I had no intention of posting something that was insulting, or could be inferred that way. If anyone interpreted it as such, please accept my
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                  Teresa (and all),

                  I had no intention of posting something that was insulting, or could be
                  inferred that way. If anyone interpreted it as such, please accept my
                  apologies. As Teresa said, we're all here because we're gung-ho about
                  Scouting and training, and I wouldn't imagine that anyone member of this
                  forum would be anti-training (by nature of the purpose of the list).

                  One way in which the BSA and GSUSA differ is in their training. In the BSA,
                  training is recommended but optional. In GSUSA, it's required. That may be
                  one reason that BSA has so much more membership--it's easier to become a
                  leader, and the overhead isn't as great.

                  What I was suggesting is that BSA is placing a greater and greater emphasis
                  on the need for leaders to be trained. Some councils do require certain
                  training. At Philmont, I overheard someone saying that YPT would become a
                  requirement, but I was involved in another conversation and only
                  eavesdropping, so I can't quote you specifics, or even if it was a serious
                  remark. If not as a requirement, there is certainly a move towards increased
                  training of leaders.

                  Where the confusion may have come in is what I read in the original post:
                  That a large group of trainers got involved in a discussion about training.
                  I translated this to my experience. We, unfortunately, have folks in my
                  council that are trainers, but don't see the need to train well, often or
                  completely. At our RT last night, I could not convince our Boy Scout trainer
                  that he shouldn't be running the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals course.
                  November will mark the first NLE/Boy Scout Specific training our council has
                  offered. It will also mark the council's first *COUNCIL* sponsored BALOO
                  training (three districts have so far run nine BALOO trainings, though). We
                  have yet to run TDC.

                  What I pictured was a conversation we had here two years ago, prompted by
                  some volunteers and council people who see training as a secondary concern.
                  They suggested less training, more centralized. They want to make a certain
                  profit from a training event, or cancel it outright. The opposite of what
                  I've seen work for successful training in our district and other councils,
                  and certainly contrary to National's tone on training.

                  I could imagine a negative conversation where those people said, "If
                  training isn't mandatory, we shouldn't be providing it." On the other hand,
                  I could envision the positive side of the coin, where the "100% Trained"
                  argument was played. Not being the original poster, I don't know the context
                  in which this came up, so I was trying to present both sides. If that poster
                  was fighting against a group that was saying that "training isn't required,
                  so why offer it so much," the best argument may be the stated goal of 100%
                  trained leadership.

                  If it was my "Every Boy Deserves a WELL Trained Leader" remark that was seen
                  to be insulting, well, like everyone here I've seen good training and bad. I
                  started saying this after the introduction of the Pack Trainer, when I
                  suggested to my district committee that untrained was better than poorly
                  trained. I can train the untrained, but I have to overcome the reputation
                  and authority of poor or improper training to re-train someone. My concern
                  over the PT role is that you could conceivably have someone registered in
                  the position, who doesn't have the skill or knowledge to do the job properly
                  and might work unsupervised in a unit. I didn't mean the remark to suggest
                  that dedicated trainers would do a haphazard job of training, or that the
                  training itself is substandard. (Room for improvement? Always!)

                  True, the rules don't require any general training, only specific training
                  for specific activities like float trips, climbing, Cub Overnights, etc. Nor
                  is BSA training (except Wood Badge) accredited or verified. I can go to
                  training and sleep through it and still get a card. It's being there,
                  nothing else. You get out of it what the staff and students put into it.

                  I agree with you that the rules are the rules, whether I agree or not, and
                  like you I follow them as such. Case in point campfire content--I think that
                  there are some harmless songs that don't meet the BSA criteria. Still,
                  that's the criteria, and I abide by it. I hope I didn't suggest that we tell
                  people they _must_ be trained, and that it was a rule, or that we deceive
                  people into thinking they need to be trained. What I did try to emphasize,
                  though, was that the goal of every trainer, district and council is to
                  achieve 100% trained leadership.

                  Like you, I believe that it should be fun and convenient for people to be
                  trained. I make it competitive between units if I have to. I give out
                  rewards if I have to. I go to the unit themselves if I have to. If they'd
                  let me, I'd make training free in our council and district, but fighting a
                  profit hungry council is like spitting into the wind. And I suspect that all
                  that makes me nothing more than a typical member of this list.

                  But I do approach people about training more as a foregone conclusion, as in
                  "Which of these training events will you attend?" instead of "Do you want to
                  take some optional training?" We teach that when recruiting leaders to
                  expect the 'Yes' and consider a 'No' to mean 'Not right now.' Is that
                  deceptive? Perhaps. I'm not telling them they don't have to go, but I'm not
                  telling them they do. I don't misrepresent training as mandatory, except in
                  the cases where it is required for program to take place.

                  As for the SHOULD of training? I think every leader SHOULD be basic trained
                  for their position, and every non-leader parent of every boy registered in
                  the program SHOULD have YPT. I think that most basic training should expire
                  after a set amount of time, and that there should be an option to test or
                  retake a class to recertify, just like YPT, Safe Swim and Safety Afloat. I
                  think it would be an extremely interesting thread.

                  Again, my apologies if anyone took my prior post to be insulting or rude.
                  The shortcomings of email... :)

                  YiS,
                  Sean
                • leslie (in Michigan)
                  I have read and re-read Scott s post and I can t find anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because I agree with all he said. ... Leslie Herman Blue
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                    I have read and re-read Scott's post and I can't find
                    anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because
                    I agree with all he said.
                    ---
                    Leslie Herman
                    Blue Water Council
                    Council Training Chairman
                    http://www.powwow-online.net


                    --- Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                    > I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout
                    > way, a mandate of training.
                    >
                    > "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"
                    >
                    > Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth
                    > Deserves a WELL Trained
                    > Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't
                    > the subject of this
                    > post...
                    >
                    > If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the
                    > last few pages are
                    > devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's
                    > leaders. They present
                    > methods and techniques for achieving this in your
                    > district.
                    >
                    > If I recall, the new training material itself
                    > includes mention of this.
                    > Training Development Conference emphasises it. My
                    > Philmont conference, "New
                    > Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads
                    > that 100% was the minimum
                    > acceptable number.
                    >
                    > I think that if your training team doesn't want to
                    > train people, and they
                    > want a way out of doing it, you could say that there
                    > isn't a hard and fast
                    > rule about training a leader. To do certain things,
                    > leaders must have
                    > certain training.
                    >
                    > But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they
                    > want an excuse to get
                    > lots of training in, and just need a justification
                    > to do it, well...
                    >
                    > "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"
                    >
                    > YiS,
                    > Sean
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Teresa Hall
                    Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott s comments I think that if your training team doesn t want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you could
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                      Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott's comments "I think that if your training
                      team doesn't want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you
                      could say that there isn't a hard and fast rule about training a leader."
                      Since that's what some of us were saying - that there is no hard and fast
                      rule - I thought the comment was directed to us.

                      Now that Scott has given the history behind his comments, I can see that is
                      not what he meant, and I apologize for "getting bowed up" as my husband
                      would say. (If you've never heard that phrase, imagine a cat...)

                      As for being insulted about the qualification that every boy deserves a
                      WELL-trained leader - never!!! I agree completely. I want my training staff
                      to be prepared, experienced, articulate, likeable, enthusiastic, and on the
                      cutting edge of what's happening in Cub Scouting. (So my staff is not huge,
                      but it's growing!!) To the last qualification, Scott, your posts and scans
                      from Philmont have been invaluable, and I've been sharing them with my
                      training staff so they will be "in the know" when we have our biggest
                      training session of the year on 9/28. Thanks.

                      Have a great weekend, everybody!
                      Teresa
                      *****************************************
                      Teresa Hall
                      Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
                      Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
                      Greater AL Council
                      *****************************************
                    • nsmith1105
                      ... I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and it s clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic trained for their
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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                        David wrote:
                        > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you.
                        > What are the current absolute training musts?

                        I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and
                        it's clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic
                        trained for their position. I face this same question in trying
                        to get the leaders in our Troop trained - they ask, "So what if I
                        don't get trained?"

                        So perhaps that is the way to approach the question "what are the
                        training musts?". Ask it this way:

                        "What are the consequences of not having a given training?"

                        (And I would limit that to *direct* consequences, as we could all
                        write volumes about the effect of untrained leaders on a unit's
                        program.)

                        Examples:
                        * If you don't have the Basic Training for your position [NLE,
                        position specific, also IOLS for SM/ASM] you can't wear the
                        "Trained" strip.
                        * If you don't have Basic Training, you can't go to Wood Badge.
                        * If you don't have Basic and YPT, you can't earn your Training award.
                        * If you don't have a trained unit leader and assistant, your unit
                        can't earn the Quality Unit Award.
                        * If you don't have certain trainings for outings, your Tour Permit
                        will not be approved (which should mean you don't take the outing)
                        - BALOO for pack overnighters
                        - OWL/WLOT for Webelos den overnighters
                        - Safe Swim / Safety Afloat for appropriate water activities
                        - YPT and/or Risk Management (council specific variations)
                        * (From Stu's post) In certain councils, if you don't take the
                        training, your registration is dropped next recharter.

                        ... and so forth. I think once you say a training is mandatory, you
                        start having to explain what mandatory means. Once you put concrete
                        consequences down, you are on firmer ground; but you also start to
                        notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level)
                        for an individual who doesn't value training.

                        Since we want all leaders to be trained, it's up to us to sell the
                        value of the training they get.

                        Yours In Scouting,
                        Neal Smith
                        Troop 290, Manchester NH
                      • Dan Kurtenbach
                        I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of Fun with a Purpose to teach young people doesn t apply the same theory to teaching adults. The
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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                          I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of "Fun with a
                          Purpose" to teach young people doesn't apply the same theory to teaching
                          adults.

                          The biggest obstacle to getting people trained is that for most trainees,
                          training is boring and training is work (regardless of how well or how
                          dynamically the course is actually presented). The Scouter who can easily
                          find time for a weekend campout just can't seem to squeeze a 5-hour course
                          into his or her schedule. Almost everyone will acknowledge that training
                          has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not
                          outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom
                          all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
                          And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
                          anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the
                          whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge
                          that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but
                          that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them.

                          Now, we do things to try to make training less tedious, more interesting,
                          more interactive; but we're still working from the "Purpose, with some Fun"
                          model. We can have great success that way. But I'd still like to see a
                          training system for Scout leaders actually built on Scout training theory.

                          Dan Kurtenbach
                          Fairfax, VA
                        • Dan Smith
                          From: Dan Kurtenbach Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 8, 2002
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                            From: Dan Kurtenbach
                            "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know). And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them."

                            How about periodic testing to weed out those unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the boys. Oh, I can hear the gnashing of teeth now but a person should have some qualifications before the boys are subjected to them.

                            YIS,
                            Dan Smith
                            Chattahoochee District Commissioner
                            Northeast Georgia Council












                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dan Kurtenbach
                            ... Auntie Beans wrote: I expect it s because they [BSA] either have so little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for them, or they
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                              --------------------
                              Auntie Beans wrote: "I expect it's because they [BSA] either have so
                              little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for
                              them, or they are afraid that requiring training will scare people away
                              from volunteering in the first place."

                              And Neal Smith wrote: "So perhaps that is the way to approach the
                              question "what are the training musts?". Ask it this way: "What are the
                              consequences of not having a given training?" . . . [Y]ou also start to
                              notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level) for
                              an individual who doesn't value training."

                              And Dan Smith wrote: "How about periodic testing to weed out those
                              unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and
                              stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the
                              boys."
                              --------------------

                              It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                              trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why not
                              reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where the
                              incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and activities
                              that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                              natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                              Put another way, we need to integrate the skills and knowledge that are
                              now the subject of what we call "training" into the normal week-to-week
                              and month-to-month activities that Scouters come for and participate in
                              and enjoy.

                              Just like we do with our youth.

                              Dan Kurtenbach
                              Fairfax, VA
                            • emb021
                              ... some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Smith" <dansmith@d...> wrote:
                                > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                                > "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of
                                some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
                                inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all
                                day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
                                And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
                                anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through
                                the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will
                                acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't
                                know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole
                                day "worthwhile" for them."
                                >

                                If there are people with such an attitude, they need to change it.

                                There are many times I have taken training courses where I knew all
                                the materials (and probably could teach it), but took it anyway so
                                that I could say it had taken it. While I knew it was a bit of a
                                waste of my time, I did NOT go into it with the attitude that I had
                                to 'endure' it. I went in with the attitude that I could learn
                                something from the other participants, and maybe contribute stuff
                                that would benefit others. Also, some people THINK they know it all,
                                and really don't. Going thru training hopefully will make sure they
                                do know it.

                                Michael Brown
                                SW Florida Council, BSA
                              • bnelson45
                                I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really didn t need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction in the course. bill
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                  I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                                  didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                                  in the course.

                                  bill
                                • bnelson45
                                  ... not ... the ... activities ... We are starting to do some adult training during the troop meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids hair. bill
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                    --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@h...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                                    > trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why
                                    not
                                    > reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where
                                    the
                                    > incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and
                                    activities
                                    > that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                                    > natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                                    We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                                    meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                                    bill
                                  • Dan Kurtenbach
                                    ... and ... At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                      Bill Nelson wrote:

                                      > We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                                      > meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                                      and

                                      >I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                                      >didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                                      >in the course.

                                      At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the
                                      closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                                      the breeze about summer camp, the boys, and the Troop calendar, among other
                                      things. This is a regular feature of our meetings, and one of the reasons
                                      adults show up. Perhaps these kinds of sessions would be "targets of
                                      opportunity" for covering topics that Scouters need to know.

                                      Dan Kurtenbach
                                      Fairfax, VA
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