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Absolute Training requirements

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  • David D. Vaughan
    We had a very long discussion at out Council Training meting last night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years experience. A question
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 5, 2002
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      We had a very long discussion at out Council Training meting last night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years experience.

      A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you. What are the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended training sequence. I need to know what is absolutely required by National for a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout Leader. Much to my surprise several of our Training Team stated that the only true required training is BALOO for Cub Leaders if they wish to take their units camping. I have always thought that all primary leaders must be trained for their position. I need what ever you know referenced by source and page.

      Help......................

      David Vaughan
      ASM WE3-30-02
      Council Training Chair
      Southern Sierra Council
      W4-57-86
      DVAUGHAN@...
      Still a Buffalo....

      There's only one thing wrong with Boy Scouts...
      there aren't enough of 'em.
      -Will Rogers



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Teresa Hall
      For any individual Scouter, I would say there are NO absolute training musts. You can hold any job merely by registering. There are absolute MUSTS for units
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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        For any individual Scouter, I would say there are NO absolute training
        musts. You can hold any job merely by registering.

        There are absolute MUSTS for units that wish to engage in specific
        activities. Any unit that wants to engage in travel that requires a Tour
        Permit MUST have someone Youth Protection Trained (at least when the new
        Tour Permits are circulated, based on what I'm hearing from several
        sources). If a pack wants to do pack overnighters, they MUST have a BALOO
        trained leader. If a unit wishes to swim, they MUST have someone with SSD,
        and so on down the list of required activity certifications.

        But for Joe or Jane Scouter, nope. That's why there is the "carrot" of
        training awards, trained percentages on Quality Unit Awards, trained emblems
        and the like -- to encourage this very helpful VOLUNTARY investment of time
        in improving your program.

        One woman's opinion!
        Teresa Hall

        *****************************************
        Teresa Hall
        Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
        Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
        Greater AL Council
        *****************************************
      • Richard Damon
        David, National places no required training to be a Scout Leader. It does put training requirements on some activities: BALOO for Cub Camping, Safe Swim
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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          David,
          National places no required training to be a Scout Leader. It does put
          training requirements on some activities: BALOO for Cub Camping, Safe Swim
          Defense/Safety Afloat for aquatics, and many other specific training for
          specific activities. There is no explicit statement that leaders do not need
          to be trained, because National allows for Chartering organizations to add
          requirements for their leaders. A CO could require that leader be trained,
          either as soon as possible or even before taking a position (which would
          make it hard to recruit parents as DL). Also while national does not require
          training it does encourage it. To require training before becoming a leader
          would also make it very hard to quickly recruit leaders and get the on post.

          Richard Damon
          Pack Trainer, Pack 306
          Member of Committee, Troup 302
          Boston Minuteman Council
          Arlington, MA
          --
          rbrdamon@... (Home)
          rdamon@... (Work)
        • emb021
          ... night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years experience. ... are the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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            --- In scouter_t@y..., "David D. Vaughan" <DVAUGHAN@b...> wrote:
            > We had a very long discussion at out Council Training meting last
            night. Our training team is made up people with 30 years to 3 years
            experience.
            >
            > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you. What
            are the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
            training sequence. I need to know what is absolutely required by
            National for a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout Leader. Much to my surprise
            several of our Training Team stated that the only true required
            training is BALOO for Cub Leaders if they wish to take their units
            camping. I have always thought that all primary leaders must be
            trained for their position. I need what ever you know referenced by
            source and page.
            >

            The only training absolutes I know of are:

            * Youth Protection Training

            * Safety training (Safe Swim Defense, Safety Afloat, etc)

            * What is needed to be 'Basically Training' for your position.

            Michael Brown
          • Stu Allen
            ... Well David, you re asking us to prove a negative which is as a rule hard anyways; I don t think you re going to find a reference in some BSA publication
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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              On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 10:45:10PM -0700, David D. Vaughan wrote:
              >
              > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you. What are
              > the current absolute training musts? I know what the recommended
              > training sequence. I need to know what is absolutely required by
              > National for a Cub Scout and a Boy Scout Leader. Much to my surprise
              > several of our Training Team stated that the only true required training
              > is BALOO for Cub Leaders if they wish to take their units camping. I have
              > always thought that all primary leaders must be trained for their position.
              > I need what ever you know referenced by source and page.

              Well David, you're asking us to prove a negative which is as a rule hard
              anyways; I don't think you're going to find a reference in some BSA
              publication that says, "Leaders don't have to be trained."! :)

              But those folks on your training team are right -- there are currently
              NO Nationally-required training courses for any Scout leader!

              Now I believe there *are* some councils that have made training
              mandatory -- get trained or get dropped from the charter. But that
              is just NOT true on a National level.

              There are also certain situations that have mandatory training
              requirements, such as:

              Safe Swim Defense for swimming activities
              Safety Afloat for boating
              YP for leaders attending National Jamboree or Philmont
              BALOO for Pack Overnighters
              Camp School for camp directors and other key camp staffers


              For Quality Unit the unit leader and some of the other leaders
              need to have completed 'basic training' for their position.

              There is also this statement: "One registered adult is
              assigned responsibility for Youth Protection Training".

              Personally I find that sentence rather odd. What does "responsibility
              for YPT" mean? Does that mean that person needs to have YPT? One
              would think so, but why doesn't it just *say* *that*, if that's what
              it means? Is it this person's job to try and get the other leaders
              to attend YPT? Or is this person supposed to conduct the YP awareness
              for the youth of the unit, using the BSA-supplied videos?

              You've also mentioned the 'recommended training sequence' which is
              what a leader needs to attend to be considered a "trained" leader
              and wear the "Trained" strip on his/her uniform. Again this is not
              mandatory though -- and interestingly enough does not even include
              Youth Protection Training! Sure, if a leader wants to earn the 'knot'
              for his/her position they must attend YPT, but to be "Trained" they
              do not.

              YiS,
              Stu

              --
              Stu Allen email: allensr@...
              CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
              Spencerport NY
            • Sean Scott
              I d say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training. Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader Of course, I prefer the modified, Every
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training.

                "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"

                Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth Deserves a WELL Trained
                Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't the subject of this
                post...

                If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the last few pages are
                devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's leaders. They present
                methods and techniques for achieving this in your district.

                If I recall, the new training material itself includes mention of this.
                Training Development Conference emphasises it. My Philmont conference, "New
                Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads that 100% was the minimum
                acceptable number.

                I think that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they
                want a way out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast
                rule about training a leader. To do certain things, leaders must have
                certain training.

                But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they want an excuse to get
                lots of training in, and just need a justification to do it, well...

                "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"

                YiS,
                Sean
              • Teresa Hall
                You know, Sean, one would not have to read very hard between the lines to find this an insulting post. I suspect that anyone who bothers to be on this list is
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                  You know, Sean, one would not have to read very hard between the lines to
                  find this an insulting post. I suspect that anyone who bothers to be on this
                  list is just as dedicated and gung-ho about training as you are.

                  Your question was "What are the current absolute training musts?" with a
                  subject line of "Absolute Training requirements." I submit that the answers
                  you were given are perfectly correct -- there ARE no absolute training
                  requirements. An absolute requirement would be a nationally imposed
                  requirement, in this forum. A council might also impose a absolute
                  requirement for its members. But nationally no such REQUIREMENT exists.

                  In accreditation, for example, one differentiates between "must" statements
                  and "should" statements. A must statement is an absolute minimum standard.
                  If that standard is not met, the accreditation is pulled or the program is
                  closed. A "should" statement reflects best practices. "Every boy deserves a
                  (well)-trained leader" is a "should" statement. Otherwise it would read
                  "Every boy must have a trained leader in order to participate in the
                  program."
                  A team "should" consider 100% trained as a minimum acceptable number -- also
                  a best practice goal.

                  I am a literalist. I interpret the rules as rules, and that goes just as
                  much for ones I agree with as ones I disagree with. I would no more tell a
                  leader that BSA says there is an absolute training requirement than I would
                  tell a new Tiger leader they could go den camping. Your statement "I think
                  that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they want a way
                  out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast rule about
                  training a leader" is obviously the way you see it, but I would consider it
                  dishonest. I tell people in my district WHY they SHOULD be trained, then
                  make it fun and convenient for them to meet my expectations. I would never
                  tell someone they MUST be trained, because it just isn't so. (I do spend
                  plenty of time telling Cubmasters they MUST have a BALOO trained leader
                  before they do a pack overnighter, however!!)

                  But what SHOULD BE the absolute training requirements? What do we, as
                  trainers across the nation, **consider** the best practice before one leads
                  a program? What are our goals as training team members? Entirely different
                  questions. Entirely different answers. But I don't think that's what you
                  asked, and apparently none of the other respondents did either.

                  Yours in Scouting gung-ho spirit,
                  Teresa Hall

                  ps - You were going to tell us more about the diamond-shaped Webelos badge
                  not going away! Could you expound on that, when you have the time? I've been
                  very grateful for your Philmont posts and information. TH

                  *****************************************
                  Teresa Hall
                  Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
                  Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
                  Greater AL Council
                  *****************************************


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Sean Scott [mailto:sscott@...]
                  Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 11:23 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Absolute Training requirements


                  I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout way, a mandate of training.

                  "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"

                  Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth Deserves a WELL Trained
                  Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't the subject of this
                  post...

                  If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the last few pages are
                  devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's leaders. They present
                  methods and techniques for achieving this in your district.

                  If I recall, the new training material itself includes mention of this.
                  Training Development Conference emphasises it. My Philmont conference, "New
                  Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads that 100% was the minimum
                  acceptable number.

                  I think that if your training team doesn't want to train people, and they
                  want a way out of doing it, you could say that there isn't a hard and fast
                  rule about training a leader. To do certain things, leaders must have
                  certain training.

                  But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they want an excuse to get
                  lots of training in, and just need a justification to do it, well...

                  "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"

                  YiS,
                  Sean




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                • Sean Scott
                  Teresa (and all), I had no intention of posting something that was insulting, or could be inferred that way. If anyone interpreted it as such, please accept my
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                    Teresa (and all),

                    I had no intention of posting something that was insulting, or could be
                    inferred that way. If anyone interpreted it as such, please accept my
                    apologies. As Teresa said, we're all here because we're gung-ho about
                    Scouting and training, and I wouldn't imagine that anyone member of this
                    forum would be anti-training (by nature of the purpose of the list).

                    One way in which the BSA and GSUSA differ is in their training. In the BSA,
                    training is recommended but optional. In GSUSA, it's required. That may be
                    one reason that BSA has so much more membership--it's easier to become a
                    leader, and the overhead isn't as great.

                    What I was suggesting is that BSA is placing a greater and greater emphasis
                    on the need for leaders to be trained. Some councils do require certain
                    training. At Philmont, I overheard someone saying that YPT would become a
                    requirement, but I was involved in another conversation and only
                    eavesdropping, so I can't quote you specifics, or even if it was a serious
                    remark. If not as a requirement, there is certainly a move towards increased
                    training of leaders.

                    Where the confusion may have come in is what I read in the original post:
                    That a large group of trainers got involved in a discussion about training.
                    I translated this to my experience. We, unfortunately, have folks in my
                    council that are trainers, but don't see the need to train well, often or
                    completely. At our RT last night, I could not convince our Boy Scout trainer
                    that he shouldn't be running the old Scoutmaster Fundamentals course.
                    November will mark the first NLE/Boy Scout Specific training our council has
                    offered. It will also mark the council's first *COUNCIL* sponsored BALOO
                    training (three districts have so far run nine BALOO trainings, though). We
                    have yet to run TDC.

                    What I pictured was a conversation we had here two years ago, prompted by
                    some volunteers and council people who see training as a secondary concern.
                    They suggested less training, more centralized. They want to make a certain
                    profit from a training event, or cancel it outright. The opposite of what
                    I've seen work for successful training in our district and other councils,
                    and certainly contrary to National's tone on training.

                    I could imagine a negative conversation where those people said, "If
                    training isn't mandatory, we shouldn't be providing it." On the other hand,
                    I could envision the positive side of the coin, where the "100% Trained"
                    argument was played. Not being the original poster, I don't know the context
                    in which this came up, so I was trying to present both sides. If that poster
                    was fighting against a group that was saying that "training isn't required,
                    so why offer it so much," the best argument may be the stated goal of 100%
                    trained leadership.

                    If it was my "Every Boy Deserves a WELL Trained Leader" remark that was seen
                    to be insulting, well, like everyone here I've seen good training and bad. I
                    started saying this after the introduction of the Pack Trainer, when I
                    suggested to my district committee that untrained was better than poorly
                    trained. I can train the untrained, but I have to overcome the reputation
                    and authority of poor or improper training to re-train someone. My concern
                    over the PT role is that you could conceivably have someone registered in
                    the position, who doesn't have the skill or knowledge to do the job properly
                    and might work unsupervised in a unit. I didn't mean the remark to suggest
                    that dedicated trainers would do a haphazard job of training, or that the
                    training itself is substandard. (Room for improvement? Always!)

                    True, the rules don't require any general training, only specific training
                    for specific activities like float trips, climbing, Cub Overnights, etc. Nor
                    is BSA training (except Wood Badge) accredited or verified. I can go to
                    training and sleep through it and still get a card. It's being there,
                    nothing else. You get out of it what the staff and students put into it.

                    I agree with you that the rules are the rules, whether I agree or not, and
                    like you I follow them as such. Case in point campfire content--I think that
                    there are some harmless songs that don't meet the BSA criteria. Still,
                    that's the criteria, and I abide by it. I hope I didn't suggest that we tell
                    people they _must_ be trained, and that it was a rule, or that we deceive
                    people into thinking they need to be trained. What I did try to emphasize,
                    though, was that the goal of every trainer, district and council is to
                    achieve 100% trained leadership.

                    Like you, I believe that it should be fun and convenient for people to be
                    trained. I make it competitive between units if I have to. I give out
                    rewards if I have to. I go to the unit themselves if I have to. If they'd
                    let me, I'd make training free in our council and district, but fighting a
                    profit hungry council is like spitting into the wind. And I suspect that all
                    that makes me nothing more than a typical member of this list.

                    But I do approach people about training more as a foregone conclusion, as in
                    "Which of these training events will you attend?" instead of "Do you want to
                    take some optional training?" We teach that when recruiting leaders to
                    expect the 'Yes' and consider a 'No' to mean 'Not right now.' Is that
                    deceptive? Perhaps. I'm not telling them they don't have to go, but I'm not
                    telling them they do. I don't misrepresent training as mandatory, except in
                    the cases where it is required for program to take place.

                    As for the SHOULD of training? I think every leader SHOULD be basic trained
                    for their position, and every non-leader parent of every boy registered in
                    the program SHOULD have YPT. I think that most basic training should expire
                    after a set amount of time, and that there should be an option to test or
                    retake a class to recertify, just like YPT, Safe Swim and Safety Afloat. I
                    think it would be an extremely interesting thread.

                    Again, my apologies if anyone took my prior post to be insulting or rude.
                    The shortcomings of email... :)

                    YiS,
                    Sean
                  • leslie (in Michigan)
                    I have read and re-read Scott s post and I can t find anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because I agree with all he said. ... Leslie Herman Blue
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                      I have read and re-read Scott's post and I can't find
                      anything insulting in it at all. Maybe it is because
                      I agree with all he said.
                      ---
                      Leslie Herman
                      Blue Water Council
                      Council Training Chairman
                      http://www.powwow-online.net


                      --- Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                      > I'd say that National does have, in a roundabout
                      > way, a mandate of training.
                      >
                      > "Every Youth Deserves a Trained Leader"
                      >
                      > Of course, I prefer the modified, "Every Youth
                      > Deserves a WELL Trained
                      > Leader," and there is a difference, but this isn't
                      > the subject of this
                      > post...
                      >
                      > If you look in the Training Committee Handbook, the
                      > last few pages are
                      > devoted to the idea of training 100% of Scouting's
                      > leaders. They present
                      > methods and techniques for achieving this in your
                      > district.
                      >
                      > If I recall, the new training material itself
                      > includes mention of this.
                      > Training Development Conference emphasises it. My
                      > Philmont conference, "New
                      > Directions in Training" drilled it into our heads
                      > that 100% was the minimum
                      > acceptable number.
                      >
                      > I think that if your training team doesn't want to
                      > train people, and they
                      > want a way out of doing it, you could say that there
                      > isn't a hard and fast
                      > rule about training a leader. To do certain things,
                      > leaders must have
                      > certain training.
                      >
                      > But if your training team is gung-ho about it, they
                      > want an excuse to get
                      > lots of training in, and just need a justification
                      > to do it, well...
                      >
                      > "Every Youth Deserves a (WELL) Trained Leader!"
                      >
                      > YiS,
                      > Sean
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >


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                    • Teresa Hall
                      Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott s comments I think that if your training team doesn t want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you could
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 6, 2002
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                        Scott (and Leslie) - I took Scott's comments "I think that if your training
                        team doesn't want to train people, and they want a way out of doing it, you
                        could say that there isn't a hard and fast rule about training a leader."
                        Since that's what some of us were saying - that there is no hard and fast
                        rule - I thought the comment was directed to us.

                        Now that Scott has given the history behind his comments, I can see that is
                        not what he meant, and I apologize for "getting bowed up" as my husband
                        would say. (If you've never heard that phrase, imagine a cat...)

                        As for being insulted about the qualification that every boy deserves a
                        WELL-trained leader - never!!! I agree completely. I want my training staff
                        to be prepared, experienced, articulate, likeable, enthusiastic, and on the
                        cutting edge of what's happening in Cub Scouting. (So my staff is not huge,
                        but it's growing!!) To the last qualification, Scott, your posts and scans
                        from Philmont have been invaluable, and I've been sharing them with my
                        training staff so they will be "in the know" when we have our biggest
                        training session of the year on 9/28. Thanks.

                        Have a great weekend, everybody!
                        Teresa
                        *****************************************
                        Teresa Hall
                        Pack 321 CC, Bluff Park UMC
                        Vulcan District Cub Training Coord.
                        Greater AL Council
                        *****************************************
                      • nsmith1105
                        ... I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and it s clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic trained for their
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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                          David wrote:
                          > A question came up that I thought would be best posed to you.
                          > What are the current absolute training musts?

                          I think a lot of good advice has already been given upthread, and
                          it's clear to me that national wants all leaders at least basic
                          trained for their position. I face this same question in trying
                          to get the leaders in our Troop trained - they ask, "So what if I
                          don't get trained?"

                          So perhaps that is the way to approach the question "what are the
                          training musts?". Ask it this way:

                          "What are the consequences of not having a given training?"

                          (And I would limit that to *direct* consequences, as we could all
                          write volumes about the effect of untrained leaders on a unit's
                          program.)

                          Examples:
                          * If you don't have the Basic Training for your position [NLE,
                          position specific, also IOLS for SM/ASM] you can't wear the
                          "Trained" strip.
                          * If you don't have Basic Training, you can't go to Wood Badge.
                          * If you don't have Basic and YPT, you can't earn your Training award.
                          * If you don't have a trained unit leader and assistant, your unit
                          can't earn the Quality Unit Award.
                          * If you don't have certain trainings for outings, your Tour Permit
                          will not be approved (which should mean you don't take the outing)
                          - BALOO for pack overnighters
                          - OWL/WLOT for Webelos den overnighters
                          - Safe Swim / Safety Afloat for appropriate water activities
                          - YPT and/or Risk Management (council specific variations)
                          * (From Stu's post) In certain councils, if you don't take the
                          training, your registration is dropped next recharter.

                          ... and so forth. I think once you say a training is mandatory, you
                          start having to explain what mandatory means. Once you put concrete
                          consequences down, you are on firmer ground; but you also start to
                          notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level)
                          for an individual who doesn't value training.

                          Since we want all leaders to be trained, it's up to us to sell the
                          value of the training they get.

                          Yours In Scouting,
                          Neal Smith
                          Troop 290, Manchester NH
                        • Dan Kurtenbach
                          I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of Fun with a Purpose to teach young people doesn t apply the same theory to teaching adults. The
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 7, 2002
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                            I think it is ironic that a program built on the idea of "Fun with a
                            Purpose" to teach young people doesn't apply the same theory to teaching
                            adults.

                            The biggest obstacle to getting people trained is that for most trainees,
                            training is boring and training is work (regardless of how well or how
                            dynamically the course is actually presented). The Scouter who can easily
                            find time for a weekend campout just can't seem to squeeze a 5-hour course
                            into his or her schedule. Almost everyone will acknowledge that training
                            has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not
                            outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom
                            all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
                            And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
                            anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the
                            whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge
                            that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but
                            that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them.

                            Now, we do things to try to make training less tedious, more interesting,
                            more interactive; but we're still working from the "Purpose, with some Fun"
                            model. We can have great success that way. But I'd still like to see a
                            training system for Scout leaders actually built on Scout training theory.

                            Dan Kurtenbach
                            Fairfax, VA
                          • Dan Smith
                            From: Dan Kurtenbach Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 8, 2002
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                              From: Dan Kurtenbach
                              "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know). And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole day "worthwhile" for them."

                              How about periodic testing to weed out those unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the boys. Oh, I can hear the gnashing of teeth now but a person should have some qualifications before the boys are subjected to them.

                              YIS,
                              Dan Smith
                              Chattahoochee District Commissioner
                              Northeast Georgia Council












                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dan Kurtenbach
                              ... Auntie Beans wrote: I expect it s because they [BSA] either have so little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for them, or they
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                --------------------
                                Auntie Beans wrote: "I expect it's because they [BSA] either have so
                                little confidence in their materials that people will refuse to sit for
                                them, or they are afraid that requiring training will scare people away
                                from volunteering in the first place."

                                And Neal Smith wrote: "So perhaps that is the way to approach the
                                question "what are the training musts?". Ask it this way: "What are the
                                consequences of not having a given training?" . . . [Y]ou also start to
                                notice that there aren't strong consequences (on a National level) for
                                an individual who doesn't value training."

                                And Dan Smith wrote: "How about periodic testing to weed out those
                                unwilling to be trained or too stubborn to refresh their knowledge and
                                stay current? If you can't pass the test, you can't work with the
                                boys."
                                --------------------

                                It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                                trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why not
                                reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where the
                                incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and activities
                                that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                                natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                                Put another way, we need to integrate the skills and knowledge that are
                                now the subject of what we call "training" into the normal week-to-week
                                and month-to-month activities that Scouters come for and participate in
                                and enjoy.

                                Just like we do with our youth.

                                Dan Kurtenbach
                                Fairfax, VA
                              • emb021
                                ... some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all day hearing a lot
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                  --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Smith" <dansmith@d...> wrote:
                                  > From: Dan Kurtenbach
                                  > "Almost everyone will acknowledge that training has benefits of
                                  some kind, but for a lot of people those benefits do not outweigh the
                                  inconvenience, annoyance, and tedium of sitting in a classroom all
                                  day hearing a lot of material they already know (or think they know).
                                  And the kicker is, for most courses, you don't actually have to learn
                                  anything! It's merely an endurance test for your tush -- sit through
                                  the whole thing, and you are trained! Now again, most people will
                                  acknowledge that they pick up at least one or two things they didn't
                                  know before, but that doesn't make the "loss" of the whole
                                  day "worthwhile" for them."
                                  >

                                  If there are people with such an attitude, they need to change it.

                                  There are many times I have taken training courses where I knew all
                                  the materials (and probably could teach it), but took it anyway so
                                  that I could say it had taken it. While I knew it was a bit of a
                                  waste of my time, I did NOT go into it with the attitude that I had
                                  to 'endure' it. I went in with the attitude that I could learn
                                  something from the other participants, and maybe contribute stuff
                                  that would benefit others. Also, some people THINK they know it all,
                                  and really don't. Going thru training hopefully will make sure they
                                  do know it.

                                  Michael Brown
                                  SW Florida Council, BSA
                                • bnelson45
                                  I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really didn t need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction in the course. bill
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                    I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                                    didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                                    in the course.

                                    bill
                                  • bnelson45
                                    ... not ... the ... activities ... We are starting to do some adult training during the troop meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids hair. bill
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                      --- In scouter_t@y..., "Dan Kurtenbach" <danielkurtenbach@h...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > It seems to me that we need a different approach here. Rather than
                                      > trying to find incentives to get Scouters to go to training, why
                                      not
                                      > reverse that? Why don't we try to find ways to put training where
                                      the
                                      > incentives are? Why not identify the meetings and events and
                                      activities
                                      > that Scouters will want to go to, and structure them so that in the
                                      > natural course of participating, Scouters become trained.

                                      We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                                      meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                                      bill
                                    • Dan Kurtenbach
                                      ... and ... At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 9, 2002
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                                        Bill Nelson wrote:

                                        > We are starting to do some adult training during the troop
                                        > meetings...keeps the adults out of the kids' hair.

                                        and

                                        >I know a lot of us at the Philmont Council Admin course really
                                        >didn't need the course, but really got a lot out of the interaction
                                        >in the course.

                                        At our Troop meeting tonight, between the preliminary business and the
                                        closing circle, we had a good 45 minutes with 6 to 8 adults just shooting
                                        the breeze about summer camp, the boys, and the Troop calendar, among other
                                        things. This is a regular feature of our meetings, and one of the reasons
                                        adults show up. Perhaps these kinds of sessions would be "targets of
                                        opportunity" for covering topics that Scouters need to know.

                                        Dan Kurtenbach
                                        Fairfax, VA
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