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Re: [Scouter_T] Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...

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  • Stu Allen
    ... But what I tried to point out in another note to the list is that two deep is NOT about preventing abuse and false accusations. The rule that does that
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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      On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:37:47PM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] wrote:
      > Some of us like straight forward, plain English.
      > To many the MAIN connotations when they hear 'two deep'
      > is preventing abuse and false accusations of abuse.
      > With this in mind perhaps it can be seen that asking for a
      > back-up is more straight forward than saying it's to
      > meet 'two deep' leadership requirements..

      But what I tried to point out in another note to the list is
      that "two deep" is NOT about preventing abuse and false
      accusations. The rule that does that is "NO ONE-ON-ONE".
      You're right -- many folks get the two confused, but they
      are not the same.

      No one-on-one means just that -- no adult is allowed to
      be alone with a youth unless the youth is the leader's
      child.

      One youth with two (or more) leaders is OK, as is two (or more)
      youths and one leader. You don't always need to have two
      adults present -- for example, in G2SS it explicitly states
      that you do NOT have to have two adults in every car when
      travelling to an event. As long as no youth is alone in
      a car with one adult (unless parent/child) you're OK.

      You *DO* need to have at least two adults attending the
      outing (Two-Deep rule) but they can travel in two cars.

      "No one-on-one" is ALWAYS a requirement. Two-Deep applies
      to (according to G2SS) "all trips and outings", so it is
      OK per G2SS for a den leader to have a den meeting without
      another adult as long as he or she is never one-on-one with
      any boy other than his/her child. Is it a good idea?
      Not in my book. But is is allowed per G2SS? Yes.

      Maybe I'm picking nits, but in some circumstances it DOES
      make a difference. Two-Deep is *all* about having a trained
      and ready backup for each leadership position. It doesn't
      mean that there always have to be two adults in every
      situation.

      > Personally, I have taught POW-WOW courses alone and with
      > others. Some courses do well with more than one instructor
      > and some are cluttered with more than one

      And I don't see "two-deep" in this context as meaning that
      you must have two instructors to TEACH each session; it just
      means that you have two that CAN teach it so if the primary
      instructor is sick or otherwise unavailable you have someone
      to fill in. We want our troops to have "two-deep" leadership
      too, but that doesn't mean we have two SPLs running the show;
      it just means that we *do* have an ASPL that can fill in
      if the SPL isn't there!

      If they really mean you must have two instructors actively
      participating in each session I think they're offbase. If
      you're talking about NLE or one of the longer courses then
      I think there is a big advantage in having more than one
      presenter, but for an hour-or-less Pow Wow session I just
      don't see it!

      YiS,
      Stu

      --
      Stu Allen email: allensr@...
      CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
      Spencerport NY
    • leslie (in Michigan)
      ... When I took my Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge training back in 1990 (EC-CS-19) that was the way we were taught to always prepare our presentations. The
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 15, 2002
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        --- Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:

        > So, am I being unreasonable? Or is 2 deep at a
        > training event like
        > this taking things just a bit too far?
        >
        > Also, if it is reasonable, is it a new requirement
        > from National?

        When I took my Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge training
        back in 1990 (EC-CS-19) that was the way we were
        taught to always prepare our presentations. The
        second person present was called "support".


        =====
        Leslie (in Michigan)
        Blue Water Council

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      • Ken Todd
        Chuck, In your message, you gave me more than enough reason for wanting 2 deep leadership in your course. Training Courses are being pushed to have 2-deep
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 15, 2002
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          Chuck,

          In your message, you gave me more than enough reason for wanting 2 deep
          leadership in your course.

          Training Courses are being pushed to have 2-deep leadership as an
          example to the leaders we are training, and more importantly to
          increase the chance of coverage in the event that a trainer cannot
          attend due to illness or other emergency.

          In your case, if your health is a concern, they probably want to ensure
          that the course can still go on in your absence.

          Plus, how can we go to new and better things if we do not train our
          replacements to free us up.

          Have a great week
          --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          Message: 14
          Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:32:07 -0400
          From: Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...>
          Subject: Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...

          ... I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with
          the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2 deep"
          leadership on the Pow Wow staff ....


          =====
          Ken R. Todd, Council Cub Scout Training Chair
          National Capital Area Council
          NE-CS-59 Beaver

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