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Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...

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  • Scouter Chuck
    Hi Folks: I have a question for you. It s not often that I will have a problem with event rules, but this is a rarity. I have served on staff for the last
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 13, 2002
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      Hi Folks:

      I have a question for you. It's not often that I will have a
      problem with event rules, but this is a rarity.

      I have served on staff for the last couple of years teaching
      "Scouting on the Internet" at our Council Pow Wow. I find it quite
      interesting, especially as my orientation is Boy Scout level
      training and leadership.

      I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with
      the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2
      deep" leadership on the Pow Wow staff.

      I take it as a bit of an imposition, as well and quite a bit of
      extra work. It will now require me to train another person in the
      way that I've been doing the class, as well as have one or more
      meetings with them to iron out any problems.

      I have a very busy schedule, between work, RT, and my other stuff,
      and this might just be a bit too much for me to handle. Especially
      as I've been dealing with a health problem for a month or so, that
      is both restricting my activities and taking extra time to deal
      with.

      Please note that I don't have a problem with "2 deep", per se. But
      in my current situation, I neither see the reason for it, nor the
      possibility of finding some one that I can work with on this in
      time to get into the registration and course list.

      So, am I being unreasonable? Or is 2 deep at a training event like
      this taking things just a bit too far?

      Also, if it is reasonable, is it a new requirement from National?

      YiS,

      Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
      I "used to be" an Antelope! WEM-10-95 Member DNRC
      Firebird District Committee Member at Large -- Grand Canyon Council
      -------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
      -- Stephen R. Covey
      -------------------------------------------------------------------
    • tsbeb@att.net
      Chuck, I have not heard of this. Pow Wow participants are adult scouters, so why would you need two deep leadership? Ted Beblowski Crew 477 Twin River Council
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 13, 2002
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        Chuck,

        I have not heard of this. Pow Wow participants are
        adult scouters, so why would you need two deep
        leadership?

        Ted Beblowski
        Crew 477
        Twin River Council
      • margaret_mccamy
        Hi Chuck!! Being from the Central Floridal Council, the only time I have seen 2 deep leadership at a training event is at our University of Scouting for
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 13, 2002
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          Hi Chuck!!

          Being from the Central Floridal Council, the only time I have seen 2
          deep leadership at a training event is at our University of Scouting
          for specific courses, such as Cooking Demonstration for the Boy
          Scouts, JLT, etc. I have never heard of it at an adult training
          event such as Pow-Wow. The only way they do it here, is if there is
          such a demand for a specific course, then the 2nd person steps in to
          assist with getting the paperwork done, etc., not to teach.

          Yours in Scouting,

          Margaret McCamy
          Central Florida Council

          SE-511 (Screaming Eagle 511)

          Oh I use to be an Eagle, and a good old eagle too ...


          --- In scouter_t@y..., Scouter Chuck <antelope95@c...> wrote:
          > Hi Folks:
          >
          > I have a question for you. It's not often that I will have a
          > problem with event rules, but this is a rarity.
          >
          > I have served on staff for the last couple of years teaching
          > "Scouting on the Internet" at our Council Pow Wow. I find it quite
          > interesting, especially as my orientation is Boy Scout level
          > training and leadership.
          >
          > I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with
          > the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2
          > deep" leadership on the Pow Wow staff.
          >
          > I take it as a bit of an imposition, as well and quite a bit of
          > extra work. It will now require me to train another person in the
          > way that I've been doing the class, as well as have one or more
          > meetings with them to iron out any problems.
          >
          > I have a very busy schedule, between work, RT, and my other stuff,
          > and this might just be a bit too much for me to handle. Especially
          > as I've been dealing with a health problem for a month or so, that
          > is both restricting my activities and taking extra time to deal
          > with.
          >
          > Please note that I don't have a problem with "2 deep", per se. But
          > in my current situation, I neither see the reason for it, nor the
          > possibility of finding some one that I can work with on this in
          > time to get into the registration and course list.
          >
          > So, am I being unreasonable? Or is 2 deep at a training event like
          > this taking things just a bit too far?
          >
          > Also, if it is reasonable, is it a new requirement from National?
          >
          > YiS,
          >
          > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@c...
          > I "used to be" an Antelope! WEM-10-95 Member DNRC
          > Firebird District Committee Member at Large -- Grand Canyon Council
          > -------------------------------------------------------------------
          > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
          > -- Stephen R. Covey
          > -------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
          Chuck, Sounds like a zealot to me. If they want a back-up person why wouldn t they just say so? Pete, who won t be teaching family camping this year, I think
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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            Chuck,
            Sounds like a zealot to me. If they want a back-up
            person why wouldn't they just say so?

            Pete, who won't be teaching family camping this year, I
            think they realized that Baloo made it redundant.

            > ----------
            > From: Scouter Chuck
            >
            > I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with
            > the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2
            > deep" leadership on the Pow Wow staff.
            >
          • Stu Allen
            ... That s what Two-Deep Leadership is -- having a back-up person. -- Stu Allen email: allensr@frontiernet.net CM/SA Pack/Troop 92 Spencerport NY
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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              On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 09:23:50AM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] wrote:
              > Chuck,
              > Sounds like a zealot to me. If they want a back-up
              > person why wouldn't they just say so?

              That's what Two-Deep Leadership is -- having a back-up person.

              --
              Stu Allen email: allensr@...
              CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
              Spencerport NY
            • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
              Stu, Lets call a spade a spade, if they want a back-up to teach the course - say so. Don t blame it on the Two Deep Leadership requirement. Pete
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                Stu,
                Lets call a spade a spade, if they want a back-up to
                teach the course - say so. Don't blame it on the "Two
                Deep Leadership" requirement.

                Pete

                > ----------
                > From: Stu Allen
                > On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 09:23:50AM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                > wrote:
                > > Chuck,
                > > Sounds like a zealot to me. If they want a back-up
                > > person why wouldn't they just say so?
                >
                > That's what Two-Deep Leadership is -- having a back-up person.
                >
                >
              • Signe Rogers
                ... From: Scouter Chuck To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:32 PM Subject: [Scouter_T] Problem with Pow-Wow Rules... . . . I
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Scouter Chuck
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:32 PM
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...
                  . . . I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2 deep" leadership on the Pow Wow staff.
                  . . . I take it as a bit of an imposition, as well and quite a bit of extra work. It will now require me to train another person in the way that I've been doing the class, as well as have one or more meetings with them to iron out any problems.

                  . . . I have a very busy schedule. . .and this might just be a bit too much for me to handle. Especially as I've been dealing with a health problem for a month or so . . .

                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Chuck,

                  My take on this issue involves more than one facet of viewing the situation.

                  I see several benefits for requesting 2-deep leadership for *any* training.
                  ** It means somebody is in place in case of a last-minute emergency of the main presenter.
                  ** Having a 2nd presenter usually adds a positive dynamic to a presentation also. Breaks the monotony of listening to one voice for those listening.
                  ** Another very valuable aspect that I see as a Trainer is that this is an excellent way to keep bringing in new blood & keep the program alive. There are many new kids on the block that are not ready to step into the position of being "the" trainer, but are very capable and willing to assist. What better way to bring new people on board?

                  I also see in what you wrote that you received noticed "awhile" back about this Pow Wow change. It sounds by this that you have known of this new request by your Pow Wow staff for some time & have ignored it, and now it is getting down to the wire & with your busy schedule, health probs, etc..... you feel crunched. I find myself wondering why you waited so long to deal with complying with the change? If procrastination is indeed the case, I can see that you have added anxiety and this request looks like it if filling a larger portion of your plate.

                  Change is hardly ever comfortable. We get accustomed to our way of doing things & to change requires more energy of thought & time. Change is the element that keeps a program active and dynamic tho. I don't see anything unreasonable in this request by your Pow Wow staff.

                  Signe Rogers


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kathie Heidenfelder
                  But then, ........................................................................the kids are more than worth the time, as is the training of new leadership.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                    But then,
                    ........................................................................the
                    kids are more than worth the time, as is the training of new
                    leadership. We believe in this movement in "shared leadership" and no
                    session should ever have been done on a one person (who holds the
                    information and training close to them rather than sharing) in the first
                    place. I am astonished to read that your "busy schedule" (since I work
                    full time and put in 20-30 hours min. a week on Scouting, plus my church
                    activities, my family is top among all!) is one of your reasons not to
                    share leadership! Perhaps you should indeed be pleased to train a new
                    person or two so you have more time to attend to your other needs.

                    As a survivor of two heart attacks, and congestive heart failure, a mother
                    of two Eagle (now middle aged) sons, and with close to 30 yrs of volunteer
                    service as a trainer and leader for my council, for surrounding councils,
                    and nationally, I certainly know the requirements of guiding and helping
                    both our kids and leaders. I have always felt a great joy in sharing
                    leadership (one of our woodbadge skills, leadership skills, Scouting
                    skills) rather than holding whatever skills I may or may not have close to me.

                    Scouting is, afterall, sharing leadership and helping others (all others)
                    to become the best they can be.

                    Kathie

                    At 09:16 AM 8/14/2002 -0500, you wrote:
                    >----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Scouter Chuck
                    > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:32 PM
                    > Subject: [Scouter_T] Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...
                    > . . . I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along
                    > with the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2
                    > deep" leadership on the Pow Wow staff.
                    > . . . I take it as a bit of an imposition, as well and quite a bit of
                    > extra work. It will now require me to train another person in the way
                    > that I've been doing the class, as well as have one or more meetings with
                    > them to iron out any problems.
                    >
                    > . . . I have a very busy schedule. . .and this might just be a bit too
                    > much for me to handle. Especially as I've been dealing with a health
                    > problem for a month or so . . .
                    >
                    >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Chuck,
                    >
                    >My take on this issue involves more than one facet of viewing the situation.
                    >
                    >I see several benefits for requesting 2-deep leadership for *any* training.
                    > ** It means somebody is in place in case of a last-minute emergency
                    > of the main presenter.
                    > ** Having a 2nd presenter usually adds a positive dynamic to a
                    > presentation also. Breaks the monotony of listening to one voice for
                    > those listening.
                    > ** Another very valuable aspect that I see as a Trainer is that this
                    > is an excellent way to keep bringing in new blood & keep the program
                    > alive. There are many new kids on the block that are not ready to step
                    > into the position of being "the" trainer, but are very capable and
                    > willing to assist. What better way to bring new people on board?
                    >
                    >I also see in what you wrote that you received noticed "awhile" back about
                    >this Pow Wow change. It sounds by this that you have known of this new
                    >request by your Pow Wow staff for some time & have ignored it, and now it
                    >is getting down to the wire & with your busy schedule, health probs,
                    >etc..... you feel crunched. I find myself wondering why you waited so
                    >long to deal with complying with the change? If procrastination is indeed
                    >the case, I can see that you have added anxiety and this request looks
                    >like it if filling a larger portion of your plate.
                    >
                    >Change is hardly ever comfortable. We get accustomed to our way of doing
                    >things & to change requires more energy of thought & time. Change is the
                    >element that keeps a program active and dynamic tho. I don't see anything
                    >unreasonable in this request by your Pow Wow staff.
                    >
                    >Signe Rogers
                    >
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                    > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stu Allen
                    ... Gee, that s what I thought I did! :) The Two-Deep Leadership rule is just that -- having a backup. It gets included with YP because YP is more than just
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                      On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 10:04:15AM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] wrote:
                      > Stu,
                      > Lets call a spade a spade, if they want a back-up to
                      > teach the course - say so. Don't blame it on the "Two
                      > Deep Leadership" requirement.

                      Gee, that's what I thought I did! :)

                      The "Two-Deep Leadership" rule is just that -- having a backup.
                      It gets included with YP because YP is more than just preventing
                      abuse and false accusations of abuse -- it's about keeping the
                      youth SAFE, and part of keeping them safe is making sure there
                      is a second adult present if the leader of a trip is incapacitated.

                      On the Boy Scout side at least there seems to be a real push to
                      include "two-deep" in *all* leadership positions -- the SM needs
                      a trained and able assistant, the SPL needs to have a trained
                      ASPL, PLs need APLs, etc. The whole point is to keep things from
                      grinding to a halt if any one individual suddenly isn't available.

                      Are you interpreting it differently?

                      --
                      Stu Allen email: allensr@...
                      CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
                      Spencerport NY
                    • Debbie Beer
                      A back-up person might be a good idea in that person is trained to cover if the original instructor can not attend for any reason. I have paided for trainings
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                        A back-up person might be a good idea in that person is trained to cover if
                        the original instructor can not attend for any reason. I have paided for
                        trainings and not had the instructor show up. No back up instructor was
                        available. I was out the time and the money for the training. Had the
                        university offering the RT training been better prepared to cover for this
                        instructor, they could have covered the class and those of us traveling
                        several hours to attend the training would not have wasted our time.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Stu Allen" <allensr@...>
                        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:26 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...


                        > On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 09:23:50AM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                        wrote:
                        > > Chuck,
                        > > Sounds like a zealot to me. If they want a back-up
                        > > person why wouldn't they just say so?
                        >
                        > That's what Two-Deep Leadership is -- having a back-up person.
                        >
                        > --
                        > Stu Allen email: allensr@...
                        > CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
                        > Spencerport NY
                        >
                        >
                        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                      • Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES]
                        Some of us like straight forward, plain English. To many the MAIN connotations when they hear two deep is preventing abuse and false accusations of abuse.
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                          Some of us like straight forward, plain English.
                          To many the MAIN connotations when they hear 'two deep'
                          is preventing abuse and false accusations of abuse.
                          With this in mind perhaps it can be seen that asking for a
                          back-up is more straight forward than saying it's to
                          meet 'two deep' leadership requirements..

                          Personally, I have taught POW-WOW courses alone and with
                          others. Some courses do well with more than one instructor
                          and some are cluttered with more than one

                          Pete.
                        • Stu Allen
                          ... But what I tried to point out in another note to the list is that two deep is NOT about preventing abuse and false accusations. The rule that does that
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 14, 2002
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                            On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:37:47PM -0400, Mullaney, Peter [AMSTA-AR-WES] wrote:
                            > Some of us like straight forward, plain English.
                            > To many the MAIN connotations when they hear 'two deep'
                            > is preventing abuse and false accusations of abuse.
                            > With this in mind perhaps it can be seen that asking for a
                            > back-up is more straight forward than saying it's to
                            > meet 'two deep' leadership requirements..

                            But what I tried to point out in another note to the list is
                            that "two deep" is NOT about preventing abuse and false
                            accusations. The rule that does that is "NO ONE-ON-ONE".
                            You're right -- many folks get the two confused, but they
                            are not the same.

                            No one-on-one means just that -- no adult is allowed to
                            be alone with a youth unless the youth is the leader's
                            child.

                            One youth with two (or more) leaders is OK, as is two (or more)
                            youths and one leader. You don't always need to have two
                            adults present -- for example, in G2SS it explicitly states
                            that you do NOT have to have two adults in every car when
                            travelling to an event. As long as no youth is alone in
                            a car with one adult (unless parent/child) you're OK.

                            You *DO* need to have at least two adults attending the
                            outing (Two-Deep rule) but they can travel in two cars.

                            "No one-on-one" is ALWAYS a requirement. Two-Deep applies
                            to (according to G2SS) "all trips and outings", so it is
                            OK per G2SS for a den leader to have a den meeting without
                            another adult as long as he or she is never one-on-one with
                            any boy other than his/her child. Is it a good idea?
                            Not in my book. But is is allowed per G2SS? Yes.

                            Maybe I'm picking nits, but in some circumstances it DOES
                            make a difference. Two-Deep is *all* about having a trained
                            and ready backup for each leadership position. It doesn't
                            mean that there always have to be two adults in every
                            situation.

                            > Personally, I have taught POW-WOW courses alone and with
                            > others. Some courses do well with more than one instructor
                            > and some are cluttered with more than one

                            And I don't see "two-deep" in this context as meaning that
                            you must have two instructors to TEACH each session; it just
                            means that you have two that CAN teach it so if the primary
                            instructor is sick or otherwise unavailable you have someone
                            to fill in. We want our troops to have "two-deep" leadership
                            too, but that doesn't mean we have two SPLs running the show;
                            it just means that we *do* have an ASPL that can fill in
                            if the SPL isn't there!

                            If they really mean you must have two instructors actively
                            participating in each session I think they're offbase. If
                            you're talking about NLE or one of the longer courses then
                            I think there is a big advantage in having more than one
                            presenter, but for an hour-or-less Pow Wow session I just
                            don't see it!

                            YiS,
                            Stu

                            --
                            Stu Allen email: allensr@...
                            CM/SA Pack/Troop 92
                            Spencerport NY
                          • leslie (in Michigan)
                            ... When I took my Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge training back in 1990 (EC-CS-19) that was the way we were taught to always prepare our presentations. The
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 15, 2002
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                              --- Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:

                              > So, am I being unreasonable? Or is 2 deep at a
                              > training event like
                              > this taking things just a bit too far?
                              >
                              > Also, if it is reasonable, is it a new requirement
                              > from National?

                              When I took my Cub Scout Trainer Wood Badge training
                              back in 1990 (EC-CS-19) that was the way we were
                              taught to always prepare our presentations. The
                              second person present was called "support".


                              =====
                              Leslie (in Michigan)
                              Blue Water Council

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                            • Ken Todd
                              Chuck, In your message, you gave me more than enough reason for wanting 2 deep leadership in your course. Training Courses are being pushed to have 2-deep
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 15, 2002
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                                Chuck,

                                In your message, you gave me more than enough reason for wanting 2 deep
                                leadership in your course.

                                Training Courses are being pushed to have 2-deep leadership as an
                                example to the leaders we are training, and more importantly to
                                increase the chance of coverage in the event that a trainer cannot
                                attend due to illness or other emergency.

                                In your case, if your health is a concern, they probably want to ensure
                                that the course can still go on in your absence.

                                Plus, how can we go to new and better things if we do not train our
                                replacements to free us up.

                                Have a great week
                                --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                Message: 14
                                Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:32:07 -0400
                                From: Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...>
                                Subject: Problem with Pow-Wow Rules...

                                ... I received the notice of the next Pow Wow a while back, along with
                                the request that I have a helper, as they were now enforcing "2 deep"
                                leadership on the Pow Wow staff ....


                                =====
                                Ken R. Todd, Council Cub Scout Training Chair
                                National Capital Area Council
                                NE-CS-59 Beaver

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