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RE: [Scouter_T] Basic Leader Training Breakouts Question.

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  • M&C Rouse
    Jon, My training team has had this problem. One thing we did when we had 3 trainers back out at the last minute, rather that cancel the training, we looked at
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 19, 2002
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      Jon,

      My training team has had this problem. One thing we did when we had 3
      trainers back out at the last minute, rather that cancel the training, we
      looked at what was the same for all positions and then covered those areas
      together spending time on specific positions represented. It was not ideal
      but we got the job done.

      I must say in our trainers defense--it was right after 9/11 and we are
      predominantly military.

      Connie

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jon Patten [mailto:jpatten1@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 2:47 PM
      To: Scouter_T@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Basic Leader Training Breakouts Question.



      Folks,
      This has been a question that has gone around with our
      district training team. When doing the New Leader
      Essentials and then doing the breakout sessions, what does
      one do when there are not enough trainers to do the all
      of the breakout sessions? Is it okay to combine some
      sessions like Cubmaster and Committee Member? What about
      Tiger and Cub Leader or Cub Leader and Webelos Leader?
      The thing we do not want to do is not have the training,
      but with insufficient training staff at some trainings, we
      have found it necessary to combine some of these breakouts.
      Are all breakouts mandatory and not be able to be combined?
      Does anyone have a source that states specifically
      whether one can or cannot combine breakout sessions?
      Any advice or information would be appreciated.
      Thanks,
      Jon





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    • darleen.jeske@milliman.com
      Jon asked about the Cub Leader Specific splits following New Leader Essentials. I m the Council Cub Leader Specific Training Coordinator for Potawatomi, so
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 19, 2002
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        Jon asked about the Cub Leader Specific splits following New Leader Essentials.

        I'm the Council Cub Leader Specific Training Coordinator for Potawatomi, so have some background experience in coming up with my thoughts on this topic.

        I have been asked by some of our trainers to combine the sessions, but I personally believe it's a disservice to the new leaders.
        Each split has specific portions aimed at that group. For instance, uniforming covers what's appropriate for those leaders to know.
        Cubmasters get a quick overview of all the ranks and various patches on a uniform, Tigers focus on the tiger uniform.
        Pack Committee members spend that time learning about the paperwork aspects rather than uniforms.

        Den Leaders, Webelos Leaders, and Tiger Leaders learn many similar things in their splits, but they also focus on how to do THEIR den meetings - which are very different for the three levels.
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      • redhotladyscorpion
        I agree with Darleen. Combining breakouts should be done only in extreme emergency, such as the military-involved trainers having to cancel out at last
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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          I agree with Darleen. Combining breakouts should be done only in
          extreme emergency, such as the military-involved trainers having to
          cancel out at last minute. Combining would be a disservice to the
          leader, and the leader may leave feeling that not all issues specific
          to their rank group was covered.

          Is it possible for you to perhaps hold evening trainings, say on a
          Tuesday evening host NLE & the shortest two of the breakouts? Then
          host the other 3 breakouts on the following Thursday evening? How
          many trainers do you have available? Perhaps you could look into
          doing NLE very early on a Saturday morning, and doing some of the
          breakouts Sat. morning, and the remainder in the afternoon. That
          would mean that some people may come for the early morning, have a 2-
          3 hour break (go do some shopping perhaps) and then come back for
          their breakout. Others just get to end their day sooner.

          My personal preference would be to work something out in that type of
          manner where all breakouts are still held seperately.

          Best of luck to you whatever you decide!
        • Jon T. Patten
          Hi, I agree that ideally it would be the best to have full breakout sessions at each training. The real problem we have been having is that we offer training
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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            Hi,
            I agree that ideally it would be the best to have full breakout
            sessions at each training. The real problem we have been having
            is that we offer training on evenings as well as on Saturdays to
            help people with their schedules. The Saturday trainings we
            usually have more than enough trainers to do the full breakouts
            and they usually go very well. The evening trainings are where
            we run into problems with not enough trainers (we have run it
            before with as little as just 2 trainers). We offer the evening
            trainings as well since many folks can't make a Saturday due to
            work. Usually we have very good attendance at both the evening
            and Saturday sessions. Last fall we had two saturday sessions with
            ~30 leaders on one, and ~50 leaders on the other. The evening
            session in the fall was ~30 leaders. All of these figures are
            Cub Scout only. There were additional boy scout leaders present
            at each. The evening sessions are held as two consecutive
            Wednesdays or Thursdays. So in order to have fully broken out
            evening sessions, we would have to have 3 or 4 consecutive
            Wednesdays or Thursdays. This really becomes a problem with work
            load on the training staff. We already do three NLE and cub
            scout leader specific trainings in the fall and two in the spring,
            Two WLOT trainings (fall and spring), will be having to do two
            BALOO trainings (fall and spring) and a Den chief training.
            None of the trainers are just "trainers". They hold other
            positions in packs, troops, and the district. I believe that our
            Council is one of only three councils in the US which have
            mandatory training of its Leaders.
            Have been working at getting more trainers (begged and twisted
            arms at the last roundtable and got 4 more to sign up), but still
            am trying to prepare for the inevitable.
            Having said all of this, there has been some very good input
            from everyone on this. Just have been curious mainly if others
            have also had to resort to this and how do they do it and does it
            work for them?
            A few have responded that they have. The relative differences
            between the Cub and the Webelos leader breakouts appear to be the
            easiest to combine so far. Any other input on this would be most
            welcome.
            Thanks,
            Jon
          • redhotladyscorpion
            Now, I understand. You are worried about over-using your trainers and burning them out. I haven t experienced that problem because my district traditionally
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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              Now, I understand. You are worried about over-using your trainers
              and burning them out. I haven't experienced that problem because my
              district traditionally has offered one training in the fall and one
              training in the spring. This school year has been the first time
              since I became a trainer where we had multiple trainings going on and
              the trainers were having to give more of their time. Now it is
              becoming a real possibility that we may see some burn-out in trainers
              because we are beginning to offer more trainings as well as more
              repeat trainings.

              I don't know what the solution is in that event, except to recruit
              more trainers. We had to add staff this year as we need to keep 2
              trainers in every break-out. The fall training proved disatrous in
              one aspect because we had a trainer who could not allow for a "gray
              area" in a specific issue, and it was going to be her way or no way.
              She wound up in arguments with the trainees, and the co-trainer she
              had brought on board with her left in the middle of the training.
              She has since left the training team... so there won't be any more of
              that! But we do need to be aware of who we are bringing on as
              trainers and what type of behaviors they have -- issues that are "no
              give in" on their part. So - be careful and interview not only the
              person you are recruiting, but also other leaders who know this
              person.
            • Jon T. Patten
              redhotladyscorpion wrote about an issue with making sure one choses or recruits the right kind of trainers. Absolutely great advise! Of the four folks that
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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                redhotladyscorpion wrote about an issue with making sure one choses
                or recruits the right kind of trainers.

                Absolutely great advise! Of the four folks that were brought on
                board this past roundtable, I have concern for one for just this
                type of issue. By having this person witness some training (gain
                some insight) prior to having them in the lime light, I'm in hopes
                to avoid this issue.

                I'll try to report back on how that one goes.

                The benefit of everyones experience is tremendous.

                Thanks again,
                Jon
              • M&C Rouse
                Do any of you have a course for your Council that trains trainers? When I went through in TAC, it was a three day training called Train the Trainer, now it is
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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                  Do any of you have a course for your Council that trains trainers? When I
                  went through in TAC, it was a three day training called Train the Trainer,
                  now it is called something else and has been changed to a one day course.

                  While I had already been training for two years, this really helped me. We
                  even had things we had to do after the training to become certified.

                  Connie Rouse
                  TAC Certified Trainer

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Jon T. Patten [mailto:jpatten1@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 5:10 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Basic Leader Training Breakouts Question.


                  redhotladyscorpion wrote about an issue with making sure one choses
                  or recruits the right kind of trainers.

                  Absolutely great advise! Of the four folks that were brought on
                  board this past roundtable, I have concern for one for just this
                  type of issue. By having this person witness some training (gain
                  some insight) prior to having them in the lime light, I'm in hopes
                  to avoid this issue.

                  I'll try to report back on how that one goes.

                  The benefit of everyones experience is tremendous.

                  Thanks again,
                  Jon


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                • Jon T. Patten
                  M&C Rouse asked about a council course to train trainers. Funny you should ask this. Our council had the first one of these ever, last summer. Found it to be
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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                    M&C Rouse asked about a council course to train trainers.

                    Funny you should ask this. Our council had the first one of
                    these ever, last summer. Found it to be of great help as well.
                    I also found that I'm one of the few(at least of those who
                    attended) who actually has been trying to use some of the
                    learnings from it. Ours was a one day event. The trained card
                    has TDC written on it. I believe it stands for Trainer Development
                    Course. Could be wrong about that though.
                    Would recommend it to anyone who is going into or has been
                    training other people.

                    Jon
                  • M&C Rouse
                    Yes, that is it. That is what ours is called now as well. I really enjoyed the three days though, because we actually got to practice what we had been
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 20, 2002
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                      Yes, that is it. That is what ours is called now as well. I really enjoyed
                      the three days though, because we actually got to practice what we had been
                      taught.

                      Does your council have a certification program? TAC has you train six hours
                      so they assume you have prepped for 12, turn in two lesson plans and then
                      you are certified. They present you with a cool name tag with the TAC seal
                      on it as well as your name and certified trainer. That was one of my
                      proudest moments.

                      Connie

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Jon T. Patten [mailto:jpatten1@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 5:39 AM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Basic Leader Training Breakouts Question.


                      M&C Rouse asked about a council course to train trainers.

                      Funny you should ask this. Our council had the first one of
                      these ever, last summer. Found it to be of great help as well.
                      I also found that I'm one of the few(at least of those who
                      attended) who actually has been trying to use some of the
                      learnings from it. Ours was a one day event. The trained card
                      has TDC written on it. I believe it stands for Trainer Development
                      Course. Could be wrong about that though.
                      Would recommend it to anyone who is going into or has been
                      training other people.

                      Jon


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                    • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                      In a message dated 3/20/2002 11:29:48 PM, mik.con4@virgin.net writes:
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 21, 2002
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                        In a message dated 3/20/2002 11:29:48 PM, mik.con4@... writes:

                        << Do any of you have a course for your Council that trains trainers? When I
                        went through in TAC, it was a three day training called Train the Trainer,
                        now it is called something else and has been changed to a one day course.

                        While I had already been training for two years, this really helped me. We
                        even had things we had to do after the training to become certified.
                        >>

                        Having just been the course director for our council's Trainer Development
                        Course (the new name) I can give some input.

                        First of all - the syllabus for this came in the "box" your district got when
                        the new training materials were released last fall. Its the CD named "BSA
                        500". The whole course syllabus (along with overheads, one powerpoint
                        presentation and handouts) is on the CD.

                        Second - the introduction to the material now says that a district may put on
                        its own TDC. Since our council's course wasn't scheduled 'til this spring,
                        and we had many new trainers - we did this in our district. We basically
                        split up the syllabus and "self trained" the learners were the presenters.
                        While it may not have been as polished as the council's course, it did the
                        trick.

                        The trainers and learners were generally pretty pleased with the council TDC.
                        It is a one day course (as was TTT - I don't know how they stretched to three
                        for you). It covers learning by doing, communication, planning,
                        administration, presentation techniques (including using the new powerpoint
                        presentations), and pizzazz. The learners play a game as they go along (the
                        BSA 500). Answering the questions helps reinforce their learning.

                        Several major comments:
                        Like the other new syllabi, this one is very tight on time. Its a whole
                        day (8-4 or so) and if you slip at all, you're toast.
                        Several learners felt that they could have used more help with fear of
                        speaking. What I think we didn't emphasize enough was that if you master the
                        skills and techniques in the course, you have much less reason to be scared
                        of the group.
                        Others expressed a desire for more specific instruction on how to
                        administer the new training syllabi. However, I think that desire may
                        decrease over the years.

                        In the past we have run "concurrent" sessions at TTT. There were separate
                        breakouts designed for Scoutmasters, and Cubmasters - and maybe some others?
                        Anyway, these were designed to help with training Scoutmasters to do JLT and
                        Cubmasters to "train" the parents. We passed on those this year, but may
                        consider adding them back as "advanced" training in the future.

                        Hope this provides some insight. Any one else have comments?

                        YiS,
                        Jamie Dunn
                        P.512
                        Pack Trainer
                        Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                        Cub Scout Training Chair
                        3 Rivers District
                      • Lloyd Solis
                        Trainer Development Conference is the course title. Course is close enough.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 21, 2002
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                          "Trainer Development Conference" is the course title. Course is close
                          enough.

                          "Jon T. Patten" wrote:

                          > M&C Rouse asked about a council course to train trainers.
                          >
                          > Funny you should ask this. Our council had the first one of
                          > these ever, last summer. Found it to be of great help as well.
                          > I also found that I'm one of the few(at least of those who
                          > attended) who actually has been trying to use some of the
                          > learnings from it. Ours was a one day event. The trained card
                          > has TDC written on it. I believe it stands for Trainer Development
                          > Course. Could be wrong about that though.
                          > Would recommend it to anyone who is going into or has been
                          > training other people.
                          >
                          > Jon
                          >
                          >
                          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • nsmith1105
                          ... got when ... BSA ... powerpoint ... This is true when the national office sent them out, but I know that SHAC removed and saved these before passing the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 21, 2002
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                            --- Jamie Dunn wrote:
                            > First of all - the syllabus for this came in the "box" your district
                            got when
                            > the new training materials were released last fall. Its the CD named
                            "BSA
                            > 500". The whole course syllabus (along with overheads, one
                            powerpoint
                            > presentation and handouts) is on the CD.
                            >

                            This is true when the national office sent them out, but I know that
                            SHAC removed and saved these before passing the training kits on to
                            the districts, so the districts did not have this syllabus.

                            Just a data point.

                            YiS,
                            Neal Smith
                            In snowy MA on the first full day of Spring.
                          • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                            In a message dated 3/21/2002 3:53:19 PM, neal.smith@prodigy.net writes:
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 21, 2002
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                              In a message dated 3/21/2002 3:53:19 PM, neal.smith@... writes:

                              << This is true when the national office sent them out, but I know that
                              SHAC removed and saved these before passing the training kits on to
                              the districts, so the districts did not have this syllabus. >>

                              What a hoot! My DE just delivered the box. I don't think he even looked in
                              it. I know the council professional who works with training knew there were
                              in there, because we talked about it at the council training committee
                              meeting. Were they trying to control when/how the course was administered, or
                              just housekeeping and didn't think you needed it?

                              Jamie
                            • CubBobwhite
                              I was given the box to take home as soon as it arrived at the council office and I have never taken it back. Nor have they asked for it back. Interesting how
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 21, 2002
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                                I was given the box to take home as soon as it arrived at the council office
                                and I have never taken it back. Nor have they asked for it back.
                                Interesting how different councils do things differently.
                                --------
                                Leslie Herman
                                Council Training Chairman
                                Blue Water Council - Port Huron, Michigan
                                http://www.powwow-online.net
                                http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/CubScoutRoundtable
                                http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/BWCubs
                              • Ken Todd
                                We have had to combine the Tiger and Cub Den Leader sessions the Spring. The first session was staffing, but both sessions were the number of Tiger Cub
                                Message 15 of 30 , Mar 22, 2002
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                                  We have had to combine the Tiger and Cub Den Leader sessions the
                                  Spring. The first session was staffing, but both sessions were the
                                  number of Tiger Cub Leaders. For example, at our session this month we
                                  only had one Tiger Leader. We figured that the Tiger Leaders would all
                                  be moving up to be Den soon enough, so we added the Tiger specific
                                  items and taught them both together. I put both courses on the card we
                                  handed out as well.

                                  Normally, I would prefer not to combine courses, but there are always
                                  the last minute emergencies. That is one reason why I normally don't
                                  volunteer to lead any of the courses beyond New Leader Essentials in
                                  case I need to fill in at the last minute. Plus it gives me the
                                  opportunity to spend some time with each group and provide some
                                  feedback.

                                  Yours in Scouting,
                                  Ken Todd, Dist Training Chairman
                                  NE-CS-59 Beaver

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                                • Ken Todd
                                  Connie, You are talking about the Trainer Development Conference. The CD came in the New Training Kit last year. Our Council has offered once last summer,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Mar 22, 2002
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                                    Connie,

                                    You are talking about the Trainer Development Conference. The CD came
                                    in the New Training Kit last year. Our Council has offered once last
                                    summer, once at Pow Wow, twice this winter, and will have another
                                    course in June. We are strongly encouraging Pack Trainers to take the
                                    course.

                                    Yours in Scouting,
                                    Ken
                                    --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                    Message: 8
                                    Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 05:26:01 -0000
                                    From: "M&C Rouse" <mik.con4@...>
                                    Subject: RE: Re: Basic Leader Training Breakouts Question.

                                    Do any of you have a course for your Council that trains trainers?...
                                    Connie Rouse
                                    TAC Certified Trainer

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                                  • nsmith1105
                                    ... administered, or ... That wasn t clear to me. They were given out at a big kick-off meeting for the new training. They (council employees) took the TDC
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Mar 22, 2002
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                                      I wrote previously that:
                                      > SHAC removed and saved these before passing the training kits on to
                                      > the districts, so the districts did not have this syllabus. >>
                                      >

                                      Jamie Dunn asked:
                                      > ... Were they trying to control when/how the course was
                                      administered, or
                                      > just housekeeping and didn't think you needed it?

                                      That wasn't clear to me. They were given out at a big kick-off
                                      meeting for the new training. They (council employees) took the
                                      TDC CDs out as they passed the kits out, and went through the extra
                                      kits (for the few districts without someone in attendance) and
                                      removed the ones there as well. The reason given was that they
                                      needed them for the TDC they were giving in a few months, but that
                                      didn't sound like a great reason - you need 20 copies of the CD for
                                      that? You can't get copies anywhere else? It didn't sound...
                                      plausible.

                                      It is the case that the council wanted to control when and how the
                                      course was administered - they offer it only at council, and expect
                                      the districts not to - but I don't think removing the CDs was really
                                      a necessary part of that.

                                      My best guess is that it was a quick decision by someone who thought
                                      there was a reason but had not really given enough thought to the
                                      subject.

                                      Anyway, coming back to the original topic - this wasn't really a big
                                      deal (I don't think many people really missed the CD, other than
                                      burning curiousity), but I did want to point out that not every
                                      district will have this resource available to them.

                                      YiS,
                                      Neal
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