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RE: [Scouter_T] Trip Adult Leader

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  • Jenn Marques
    As long as someone is registered with the BSA is that registered person is trained, you or ok. Don t forget the tour permit. Make sure the training
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 21 9:04 AM
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      As long as someone is "registered" with the BSA is that registered person is trained, you or ok. Don't forget the tour permit. Make sure the training includes hazardous weather as this is required for a trip and if you are planning on doing anything with water, have someone take the safety afloat and swimming training found on myscouting.org.



      Sincerely,
      Jenn Marques


      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      From: michaeldotson@...
      Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 15:49:49 +0000
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Trip Adult Leader


























      BSA says that a trip requires at least one trained adult leader over 21. It doesn't say the adult leader needs to be a registered Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster. Is that true? I have some adults who get trained with Boy Scout Leader training, including IOLS, but do not want to be ASMs. Can they just be registered adults who are trained?

      Michael Dotson, Scoutmaster T88, San Francisco CA



















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    • Jamie Niss Dunn
      Well, they have to be registered as *something*, either a committee member, an assistant or
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 21 11:16 AM
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        <<Can they just be registered adults who are trained? >>


        Well, they have to be registered as *something*, either a committee member, an assistant or Scoutmaster, or in rare cases, Unit Scouter Reserve. You can't register as a generic 'leader' or 'adult'.

        If they're committee members, they need to take Troop Committee Challenge to be considered trained. SM/ASM position specific training and IOLS are not necessary, but helpful for committee members.

        And yes, if they've registered and had a background check, and taken Youth Protection training they *could* serve as the leader on camping trip.


        Jamie Niss Dunn
        Cubmaster, Pack 512
        Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
        Troop Committee, Troop 509
        Ham Lake, MN
        Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
        Three Rivers District












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      • Jenn
        That is technically not true. You can be registered as a scout parent on the troop level. That is their title.
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 21 1:49 PM
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          That is technically not true. You can be registered as a scout parent on the troop level. That is their title.

          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > <<Can they just be registered adults who are trained? >>
          >
          >
          > Well, they have to be registered as *something*, either a committee member, an assistant or Scoutmaster, or in rare cases, Unit Scouter Reserve. You can't register as a generic 'leader' or 'adult'.
          >
          > If they're committee members, they need to take Troop Committee Challenge to be considered trained. SM/ASM position specific training and IOLS are not necessary, but helpful for committee members.
          >
          > And yes, if they've registered and had a background check, and taken Youth Protection training they *could* serve as the leader on camping trip.
          >
          >
          > Jamie Niss Dunn
          > Cubmaster, Pack 512
          > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
          > Troop Committee, Troop 509
          > Ham Lake, MN
          > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
          > Three Rivers District
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jamie Niss Dunn
          The ScoutParent designation was never a registered position. It was an
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 21 2:28 PM
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            <<You can be registered as a scout parent on the troop level. That is their title. >>


            The "ScoutParent" designation was never a registered position. It was an agreement by the parent to be involved in their son's Scouting experience, but no background check was ever conducted and no training was required. People that, that because those individuals who marked the "ScoutParent" bubble showed up on a roster, that they were registered. They weren't. Tiger Partners show up on a Cub Pack roster, but they aren't registered either - just parents who are involved as a consequence of their son's registration - like Scout Parents.

            The ScoutParent designation has been eliminated as of July 1: http://scout-wire.org/2013/04/18/scoutparent-designation-to-end-july-1/

            The article from ScoutWire says this:

            "As part of our ongoing efforts to strengthen the protection of youth in our programs, the designation of parents of youth members in traditional programs as ScoutParents will end effective July 1. BSA literature, forms, and processes are being revised to match this change in program.
            Councils should encourage current ScoutParents to now officially register as dues-paying adult volunteers or leaders if they are not already so registered.
            To help facilitate this, the unit Scouter Reserve position (91U) has been created for supportive adults who have no immediate specific leadership role. Like all registered BSA adult positions, this new role will require a criminal background check and the completion of Youth Protection training.
            The position of unit ScoutParent coordinator (PC) will remain a registered position with the name changed to parent coordinator."




            Jamie Niss Dunn
            Cubmaster, Pack 512
            Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
            Troop Committee, Troop 509
            Ham Lake, MN
            Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
            Three Rivers District















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          • Mark Ellis
            Jamie, while the Guide to Safe Scouting recommends two registered adult leaders on any trip or outing, it does permit a parent or other adult (with no
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 26 10:01 PM
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              Jamie, while the Guide to Safe Scouting recommends two registered adult
              leaders on any trip or outing, it does permit a parent or other adult (with
              no training) to be the second adult with a registered leader.

              Here's what it says:

              "Two-deep leadership on all outings required. Two registered adult leaders,
              or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other
              adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all
              trips and outings."

              Granted, the ideal situation is at least two registered, fully trained in
              their registered position and having current YPT. But sometimes, it's the
              unregistered mom or dad that serves as the second adult.

              YiS

              Mark Ellis
              Registrar, Leadership Training
              Aquia District
              National Capital Area Council
              (703) 376-4150

              -----------------------------------



              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Jamie Niss Dunn
              Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 2:17 PM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Trip Adult Leader

               


              <<Can they just be registered adults who are trained? >>

              Well, they have to be registered as *something*, either a committee member,
              an assistant or Scoutmaster, or in rare cases, Unit Scouter Reserve. You
              can't register as a generic 'leader' or 'adult'.

              If they're committee members, they need to take Troop Committee Challenge to
              be considered trained. SM/ASM position specific training and IOLS are not
              necessary, but helpful for committee members.

              And yes, if they've registered and had a background check, and taken Youth
              Protection training they *could* serve as the leader on camping trip.

              Jamie Niss Dunn
              Cubmaster, Pack 512
              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
              Troop Committee, Troop 509
              Ham Lake, MN
              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
              Three Rivers District

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jamie Niss Dunn
              Mark, Your answer is correct, of course. But that s not the question I was answering. The question was can someone be a registered adult without a position.
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 26 10:35 PM
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                Mark,

                Your answer is correct, of course. But that's not the question I was answering.

                The question was can someone be a "registered adult" without a position. There is no position code for "registered adult". In a Boy Scout troop, an adult is the Scoutmaster, an assistant Scoutmaster, a committee member, the COR, or rarely, the recently revived position of Unit Scouter Reserve.

                Jamie Dunn

                On Aug 27, 2013, at 12:01 AM, "Mark Ellis" <mark.ellis21@...> wrote:

                > Jamie, while the Guide to Safe Scouting recommends two registered adult
                > leaders on any trip or outing, it does permit a parent or other adult (with
                > no training) to be the second adult with a registered leader.
                >
                > Here's what it says:
                >
                > "Two-deep leadership on all outings required. Two registered adult leaders,
                > or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other
                > adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all
                > trips and outings."
                >
                > Granted, the ideal situation is at least two registered, fully trained in
                > their registered position and having current YPT. But sometimes, it's the
                > unregistered mom or dad that serves as the second adult.
                >
                > YiS
                >
                > Mark Ellis
                > Registrar, Leadership Training
                > Aquia District
                > National Capital Area Council
                > (703) 376-4150
                >
                > -----------------------------------
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > .
                >
                >


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              • Michael Dotson
                It seems problematic if not irresponsible of BSA for not being more clear on this.  Why would you not require the one registered and trained adult to be a SM
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 27 8:09 AM
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                  It seems problematic if not irresponsible of BSA for not being more clear on this.  Why would you not require the one registered and trained adult to be a SM or ASM, since that position requires thorough training to lead outings.  Much more than a Troop Committee or COR, who are not required to be trained in outdoor leadership/camping/hiking/etc. 
                   
                  I get two deep leadership and at least a 2nd adult not necessarily SM/ASM trained, as well as both having YPT, as well as Hazardous Weather and other trainings required for the trip. 

                  Michael Dotson, SM Troop 88, San Francisco


                  ______________

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                • A. Dukovic
                  No, I think BSA is very clear; these are minimums folks??  These days Units are having trouble finding parents that will help and rather than cancel events,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Aug 27 8:35 AM
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                    No, I think BSA is very clear; these are "minimums" folks??  These days Units are having trouble finding parents that will help and rather than cancel events, BSA has always had "minimums" ok; any leader however, already knows the problem(s) with using "minimum" adults on any event.  One "trained" leader and any adult is, as most of us already know, just asking for trouble before you start; anyone getting sick, needing a trip to the hospital, or any emergency is going to require "two deep" leadership and starting out with ONLY two, makes this impossible.
                     
                    When we teach SMASM, YPT, Specifics, etc., yes we teach folks the "minimums" but we also warn of the hazards of those "minimums" as well.  Nobody wishes to "cancel" any events, but lack of participation by adults is one very good reason to and prevent problems before they happen; when we are forced to "cancel" events here, we always let the youth know specifically why, and THEY go home and complain and nag to their parents, not us.   Pressure from the youth, we've found, is one of the few ways to motivate parents to participate; foolproof no, but it works pretty well??
                     
                    Enough help is the first thing everyone needs to succeed and this just might work for some of you too??

                    -Art
                     

                    ________________________________
                    From: Michael Dotson <michaeldotson@...>
                    To: "scouter_t@yahoogroups.com" <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:09 AM
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trip Adult Leader

                     

                    It seems problematic if not irresponsible of BSA for not being more clear on this.  Why would you not require the one registered and trained adult to be a SM or ASM, since that position requires thorough training to lead outings.  Much more than a Troop Committee or COR, who are not required to be trained in outdoor leadership/camping/hiking/etc. 
                     
                    I get two deep leadership and at least a 2nd adult not necessarily SM/ASM trained, as well as both having YPT, as well as Hazardous Weather and other trainings required for the trip. 

                    Michael Dotson, SM Troop 88, San Francisco

                    ______________

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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                  • jlshannon
                    Very well put Sir! Sent from my iPhone ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 11 , Aug 27 9:53 AM
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                      Very well put Sir!

                      Sent from my iPhone

                      On Aug 27, 2013, at 10:35 AM, "A. Dukovic" <artdukovic@...> wrote:

                      > No, I think BSA is very clear; these are "minimums" folks?? These days Units are having trouble finding parents that will help and rather than cancel events, BSA has always had "minimums" ok; any leader however, already knows the problem(s) with using "minimum" adults on any event. One "trained" leader and any adult is, as most of us already know, just asking for trouble before you start; anyone getting sick, needing a trip to the hospital, or any emergency is going to require "two deep" leadership and starting out with ONLY two, makes this impossible.
                      >
                      > When we teach SMASM, YPT, Specifics, etc., yes we teach folks the "minimums" but we also warn of the hazards of those "minimums" as well. Nobody wishes to "cancel" any events, but lack of participation by adults is one very good reason to and prevent problems before they happen; when we are forced to "cancel" events here, we always let the youth know specifically why, and THEY go home and complain and nag to their parents, not us. Pressure from the youth, we've found, is one of the few ways to motivate parents to participate; foolproof no, but it works pretty well??
                      >
                      > Enough help is the first thing everyone needs to succeed and this just might work for some of you too??
                      >
                      > -Art
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Michael Dotson <michaeldotson@...>
                      > To: "scouter_t@yahoogroups.com" <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:09 AM
                      > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trip Adult Leader
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > It seems problematic if not irresponsible of BSA for not being more clear on this. Why would you not require the one registered and trained adult to be a SM or ASM, since that position requires thorough training to lead outings. Much more than a Troop Committee or COR, who are not required to be trained in outdoor leadership/camping/hiking/etc.
                      >
                      > I get two deep leadership and at least a 2nd adult not necessarily SM/ASM trained, as well as both having YPT, as well as Hazardous Weather and other trainings required for the trip.
                      >
                      > Michael Dotson, SM Troop 88, San Francisco
                      >
                      > ______________
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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