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Re: [Scouter_T] Pack Overnight Site Approval Form

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  • Lisa Titus
    There is no form - other than Tour Plan if your Council requires it. Webelos should be front country camping. Beyond that, check restriction with your
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 19 9:03 AM
      There is no form - other than Tour Plan if your Council requires it.
      Webelos should be "front country" camping. Beyond that, check
      restriction with your council.


      On 04/19/2013 9:59 AM, hindsm58 wrote:
      > I'm going to be leading an OWL training session on Webelos Overnight Campouts this weekend. I was thinking Webelos could only go to Council approved campgrounds. We historically used the Pack Overnight Site Approval Form as our guidance. But today I see it says Pack (mixed age Scouts) and this is specifically Webelos. Am I correct in my interpretation that the location for a Webelos campout has to meet the requirements specified in the form?
      >
      > Mark Hinds
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jamie Niss Dunn
      No you re not correct. The
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 19 9:16 AM
        <<Am I correct in my interpretation that the location for a Webelos campout has to meet the requirements specified in the form?>>


        No you're not correct. The site approval form pertains solely to a pack campout. The syllabus for the course says:

        "Campsites might include local Scout camps or a nearby city, county, state, or federal facility
        (a state park or county forest preserve, for example). The campsite should be located near a
        parking area since Webelos den overnight camping cannot include backpacking. Ensure that
        the camp facility provides safe water, toilet facilities, garbage disposal, and fire sites.
        It is a good idea to have a backup plan in case of bad weather."

        Those are the only requirements for a site.


        Jamie Niss Dunn
        Cubmaster, Pack 512
        Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
        Troop Committee, Troop 509
        Ham Lake, MN
        Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
        Three Rivers District





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • rwruggieri
        Some observations: 1. A pack is not necessarily limited to council owned camp. In our Council (and other Councils in our neck of woods), Packs can use County
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 21 2:06 PM
          Some observations:

          1. A pack is not necessarily limited to council owned camp. In our Council (and other Councils in our neck of woods), Packs can use County Parks and State Parks and more local National Packs without problem (they've all been approved).

          2. The Pack Overnight Site Approval Form is not for Packs to use, so much as it is for Councils to use when evaluating sites to decide whether to add to their approved list. When I present BALOO Health and Safety segment, I do reference it and suggest that BALOO leaders might use it when looking at sites to evaluate whether they'd be appropriate, but that in end it's Council's call.

          Per Baloo syllabus (2011 ed, at page 25),

          "Camping activities take place in council-owned or managed facilities or council-approved developed sites such as national parks, state, county, and city camping parks, or councilapproved privately owned campgrounds. See appendix F."

          Appendix F of the Baloo Handouts (page 89) reads:

          "Pack camping must be held on council-owned or -managed facilities, or at the local council's option in council-approved city, state, county, or national parks, or council-approved privately-owned campgrounds. Contact your local council for availability and approval. (Councils use Pack Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508.)"

          So it's really a matter of what your local Council says.

          2. Webelos camping is still a Cub activity, and so complies with Cub guidelines. About a year ago, we had question, when preping for OWLS, of whether Webelos trip required BALOO trained leader. We wound up contacting National, and they confirmed that Webelos camping is still part of Cub program and so BALOO is required. Same logic would seem to suggest that Webelos camping has to comply with other Cub requirements (such as locations).

          Good luck with OWLS -- we found it fun course to present.

          Bob Ruggieri
          Munsee District Training Chair
          Patriots' Path Council

          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Titus <bearmitzvah@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > There is no form - other than Tour Plan if your Council requires it.
          > Webelos should be "front country" camping. Beyond that, check
          > restriction with your council.
          >
          >
          > On 04/19/2013 9:59 AM, hindsm58 wrote:
          > > I'm going to be leading an OWL training session on Webelos Overnight Campouts this weekend. I was thinking Webelos could only go to Council approved campgrounds. We historically used the Pack Overnight Site Approval Form as our guidance. But today I see it says Pack (mixed age Scouts) and this is specifically Webelos. Am I correct in my interpretation that the location for a Webelos campout has to meet the requirements specified in the form?
          > >
          > > Mark Hinds
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • mark.ellis21@comcast.net
          Interesting, we asked of National the same question: Do Webelos leaders require BALOO training when their dens go camping? The answer we got, which is
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 21 2:21 PM
            Interesting, we asked of National the same question: Do Webelos leaders
            require BALOO training when their dens go camping?

            The answer we got, which is supported by language in the Guide to Safe
            Scouting, is a BALOO trained individual is recommended for Webelos camping
            but is not required.

            I can see the logic of Webelos camping is a subset of Cub Scouting program,
            but I suspect many councils follow what I outlined.

            Mark Ellis
            (703) 376-4150

            Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless

            -----Original message-----
            From: rwruggieri <rwruggieri@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sun, Apr 21, 2013 21:06:04 GMT+00:00
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Pack Overnight Site Approval Form

            Some observations:

            1. A pack is not necessarily limited to council owned camp. In our Council
            (and other Councils in our neck of woods), Packs can use County Parks and
            State Parks and more local National Packs without problem (they've all been
            approved).

            2. The Pack Overnight Site Approval Form is not for Packs to use, so much
            as it is for Councils to use when evaluating sites to decide whether to add
            to their approved list. When I present BALOO Health and Safety segment, I
            do reference it and suggest that BALOO leaders might use it when looking at
            sites to evaluate whether they'd be appropriate, but that in end it's
            Council's call.

            Per Baloo syllabus (2011 ed, at page 25),

            "Camping activities take place in council-owned or managed facilities or
            council-approved developed sites such as national parks, state, county, and
            city camping parks, or councilapproved privately owned campgrounds. See
            appendix F."

            Appendix F of the Baloo Handouts (page 89) reads:

            "Pack camping must be held on council-owned or -managed facilities, or at
            the local council's option in council-approved city, state, county, or
            national parks, or council-approved privately-owned campgrounds. Contact
            your local council for availability and approval. (Councils use Pack
            Overnighter Site Approval Form, No. 13-508.)"

            So it's really a matter of what your local Council says.

            2. Webelos camping is still a Cub activity, and so complies with Cub
            guidelines. About a year ago, we had question, when preping for OWLS, of
            whether Webelos trip required BALOO trained leader. We wound up contacting
            National, and they confirmed that Webelos camping is still part of Cub
            program and so BALOO is required. Same logic would seem to suggest that
            Webelos camping has to comply with other Cub requirements (such as
            locations).

            Good luck with OWLS -- we found it fun course to present.

            Bob Ruggieri
            Munsee District Training Chair
            Patriots' Path Council

            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Lisa Titus <bearmitzvah@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > There is no form - other than Tour Plan if your Council requires it.
            > Webelos should be "front country" camping. Beyond that, check
            > restriction with your council.
            >
            >
            > On 04/19/2013 9:59 AM, hindsm58 wrote:
            > > I'm going to be leading an OWL training session on Webelos Overnight
            Campouts this weekend. I was thinking Webelos could only go to Council
            approved campgrounds. We historically used the Pack Overnight Site Approval
            Form as our guidance. But today I see it says Pack (mixed age Scouts) and
            this is specifically Webelos. Am I correct in my interpretation that the
            location for a Webelos campout has to meet the requirements specified in the
            form?
            > >
            > > Mark Hinds
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Lisa Titus
            ... I m sorry but that doesn t mesh with current policy. (I ve seen no update to the printed materials.) Neither BALOO nor Webelos Outdoor Leader Training
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 21 2:46 PM
              On 04/21/2013 5:06 PM, rwruggieri wrote:
              > 2. Webelos camping is still a Cub activity, and so complies with Cub guidelines. About a year ago, we had question, when preping for OWLS, of whether Webelos trip required BALOO trained leader. We wound up contacting National, and they confirmed that Webelos camping is still part of Cub program and so BALOO is required. Same logic would seem to suggest that Webelos camping has to comply with other Cub requirements (such as locations).

              I'm sorry but that doesn't mesh with current policy. (I've seen no
              update to the printed materials.) Neither BALOO nor Webelos Outdoor
              Leader Training are required to take a Webelos den camping. While the
              two courses do have some overlap, they each have a different focus.

              In our Council, we teach the BALOO students that they can get a site
              approved by following the form and submitting it to Council. From
              there the decision to approve or not does lay with the Council.

              --
              Yours in Scouting,

              Lisa Titus
              Abnaki Cub Camping Chair

              ***************************
              ******** Come find ********
              ** the SUPER HERO in YOU **
              ***************************




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Connie Knie
              What language in the G2SS supports BALOO trained leadership as recommended for a Webelos Den campout?   I don t understand why the myths about required
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 21 3:07 PM
                What language in the G2SS supports BALOO trained leadership as recommended for a Webelos Den campout?
                 
                I don't understand why the myths about required training are so hard to get rid of. Now maybe because some COUNCILS have made it mandatory for WL to be trained?? I know they can do that. But NATIONAL does not require ANY training (other than YPT) to take the youth camping.
                 
                PS. None of the capitals are "shouty". Just emphasizing.......

                Connie

                --- On Sun, 4/21/13, mark.ellis21@... <mark.ellis21@...> wrote:
                 






                Interesting, we asked of National the same question: Do Webelos leaders
                require BALOO training when their dens go camping?

                The answer we got, which is supported by language in the Guide to Safe
                Scouting, is a BALOO trained individual is recommended for Webelos camping
                but is not required.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lisa Titus
                ... I know my Council requires Webelos Outdoor Leader Training to take a Webelos den camping. There is no pre-requisite of BALOO. In fact, it s made clear
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 21 5:17 PM
                  On 04/21/2013 6:07 PM, Connie Knie wrote:
                  > What language in the G2SS supports BALOO trained leadership as recommended for a Webelos Den campout?
                  >
                  > I don't understand why the myths about required training are so hard to get rid of. Now maybe because some COUNCILS have made it mandatory for WL to be trained?? I know they can do that. But NATIONAL does not require ANY training (other than YPT) to take the youth camping.
                  >
                  > PS. None of the capitals are "shouty". Just emphasizing.......


                  I know my Council requires Webelos Outdoor Leader Training to take a
                  Webelos den camping. There is no pre-requisite of BALOO. In fact,
                  it's made clear that the two are not interchangeable and they have a
                  different focus. If the current position is that BALOO is required for
                  Webelos leaders to take a den camping, then it needs to be communicated
                  through official channels pronto.

                  Personally, I don't understand allowing Webelos leaders to take the boys
                  camping without any outdoor leader training. We don't send our Boy
                  Scouts out with untrained leaders. Why would we allow it for Webelos
                  leaders???


                  --
                  Yours in Scouting,

                  Lisa Titus
                  Abnaki Cub Camping Chair

                  ***************************
                  ******** Come find ********
                  ** the SUPER HERO in YOU **
                  ***************************




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Connie Knie
                  There is no rule (from National) that says Boy Scout leaders need to have any more training than Webelos Leaders...........   There doesn t need to be any
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 21 6:36 PM
                    There is no rule (from National) that says Boy Scout leaders need to have any more training than Webelos Leaders...........
                     
                    There doesn't need to be any announcement through official channels about BALOO and den camping because BALOO is for PACK camping.......

                    Connie

                    --- On Sun, 4/21/13, Lisa Titus <bearmitzvah@...> wrote:

                    If the current position is that BALOO is required for
                    Webelos leaders to take a den camping, then it needs to be communicated
                    through official channels pronto.

                    Personally, I don't understand allowing Webelos leaders to take the boys
                    camping without any outdoor leader training. We don't send our Boy
                    Scouts out with untrained leaders. Why would we allow it for Webelos
                    leaders???



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Lisa Titus
                    ... I misspoke. I was referring to what is required to be considered trained . ... I m commenting on the assumption that the email to the original poster
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 21 6:46 PM
                      On 04/21/2013 9:36 PM, Connie Knie wrote:
                      > There is no rule (from National) that says Boy Scout leaders need to have any more training than Webelos Leaders...........

                      I misspoke. I was referring to what is required to be considered
                      "trained".


                      > There doesn't need to be any announcement through official channels about BALOO and den camping because BALOO is for PACK camping.......

                      I'm commenting on the assumption that the email to the original poster
                      indicates a change from BSA.


                      --
                      Yours in Scouting,

                      Lisa Titus
                      CM Pack 358 http://www.pack358.us
                      CC Troop 459 http://www.troop459.us
                      I used to be a Bear ... NE-I-250
                      I used to be a Staffer ... NE-I-272 & N1-330-12-1




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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