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NLE -- first impressions

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  • Stu Allen
    Last night I attended the first NLE session put on by our district - maybe even the first in our council. At this point I don t think I qualify as a New
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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      Last night I attended the first NLE session put on by our district - maybe
      even the first in our council. At this point I don't think I qualify as
      a "New Leader" :), but I went for a couple reasons:

      1) Our pack has a track record of trained leaders, so I'm "strongly
      encouraging" all our new leaders to attend training, and I feel
      more comfortable sending folks to a course if I know what the
      course is like.

      2) I'm working on getting trained as an ASM in anticipation of my
      older son joining a troop in the spring.

      So first I want to say that I think the instructors did a fine job,
      especially since this was the first time they taught the course. No doubt
      it will be even better next month when they run it again. One problem that
      they had was that NLE ran during the 'break-out' part of our RT, and we
      really didn't get started until about 8:15 or so. This meant we didn't
      finish until 9:45 or later, and a few people started to bail out around
      9:30.

      And here are some other random observations:

      - Sorry, but the bridge didn't really do much for me, probably because we
      had 60+ people and 6 bridges.

      - I was expecting more tie-in between the various programs. Sure, they were
      all talked about, but I failed to see any emphasis on the fact that they
      should be looked at as a continuum rather than as distinct programs.

      - Nice splice in the "Ages and Stages" video. :)

      - I was suprised at how little YP information was included compared to the
      old CS Basic Training. Yes, I understand that the YP 'intro' in the old
      basic was NOT 'YP Training', and yes, I've been to the full YP training.
      But unless I missed it there was no mention of what I personally feel is
      probably the most important YP rule -- no one-on-one. I mean they talked
      about the 'no youth in adult tents' rule; couldn't they have afforded
      another 45 seconds for 'no one-on-one'? Did anyone else pick up on this?
      Seems like a glaring oversight to me, especially when the official answer
      appears to be, "Well you need to attend YP training". I agree, every
      leader *should* attend YP, but unless it is made manditory there are a
      lot who won't. And telling brand-new leaders that have already given up
      one [late] evening and are looking at spending a good part of a Saturday
      to finish their training that they need to attend *another* course sounds
      like a questionable strategy to me.


      Thoughts?

      --
      Stu Allen email: allensr@...
      CM/MC Pack/Troop 92
      Spencerport NY
    • Sean Scott
      ... Ditto here. It doesn t work really well with 14 leaders and 8 bridges, either. ... Good point, and one I hadn t realized. We will start elaborating on the
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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        Stu wrote:
        > And here are some other random observations:
        >
        > - Sorry, but the bridge didn't really do much for me, probably because we had 60+ people and 6 bridges.

        Ditto here. It doesn't work really well with 14 leaders and 8 bridges, either.

        > - I was expecting more tie-in between the various programs. Sure, they were all talked about, but I failed to see any emphasis on the fact that they should be looked at as a continuum rather than as distinct programs.

        Good point, and one I hadn't realized. We will start elaborating on the "bridge" (pun intended) between the programs!

        > - Nice splice in the "Ages and Stages" video. :)

        Yeah, no change in audio quality or anything! Nobody would ever notice!

        > - I was suprised at how little YP information was included compared to the old CS Basic Training. Yes, I understand that the YP 'intro' in the old basic was NOT 'YP Training', and yes, I've been to the full YP training. But unless I missed it there was no mention of what I personally feel is probably the most important YP rule -- no one-on-one. I mean they talked about the 'no youth in adult tents' rule; couldn't they have afforded another 45 seconds for 'no one-on-one'? ...

        This was always the longest part of CLBT--the safety and YP segment. Seems we were constantly bombarded by questions about tour permits, what's legal and not, etc. I notice that the list of "prohibited" things got very short compared to what it was, and while I understand that it needs to cater to many programs, we have a BIG problem with packs around here wanting to take boys rock climbing. I can't remember how many times a leader would watch the old video (with the catchy "Sienfeldesque" tune...) and say, "You mean we aren't supposed to take our Bears rapelling?"

        I do like the new parts of the video, though. They're nicely produced, and hit some good points, especially when it comes to where you fit in at any given level, and how to get help. It seems to give people a better feel for the overall--if there was just the tie in between the programs! The script is good and the actors seem real. In all, the material seems to be "easier to swallow" than before, when were almost cramming information down their throats!
        --
        Sean Scott
        Training Chairman
        Cub Roundtable Commissioner
        Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District
        Family FOS Chairman, California Inland Empire Council

        WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Debbie Beer
        there is a part in the video that goes into two deep leadership. It is in the very beginning. Maybe you missed it. ... From: Stu Allen
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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          there is a part in the video that goes into two deep leadership. It is in
          the very beginning. Maybe you missed it.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Stu Allen" <allensr@...>
          To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 9:10 AM
          Subject: [Scouter_T] NLE -- first impressions


          >
          > Last night I attended the first NLE session put on by our district - maybe
          > even the first in our council. At this point I don't think I qualify as
          > a "New Leader" :), but I went for a couple reasons:
          >
          > 1) Our pack has a track record of trained leaders, so I'm "strongly
          > encouraging" all our new leaders to attend training, and I feel
          > more comfortable sending folks to a course if I know what the
          > course is like.
          >
          > 2) I'm working on getting trained as an ASM in anticipation of my
          > older son joining a troop in the spring.
          >
          > So first I want to say that I think the instructors did a fine job,
          > especially since this was the first time they taught the course. No doubt
          > it will be even better next month when they run it again. One problem
          that
          > they had was that NLE ran during the 'break-out' part of our RT, and we
          > really didn't get started until about 8:15 or so. This meant we didn't
          > finish until 9:45 or later, and a few people started to bail out around
          > 9:30.
          >
          > And here are some other random observations:
          >
          > - Sorry, but the bridge didn't really do much for me, probably because we
          > had 60+ people and 6 bridges.
          >
          > - I was expecting more tie-in between the various programs. Sure, they
          were
          > all talked about, but I failed to see any emphasis on the fact that they
          > should be looked at as a continuum rather than as distinct programs.
          >
          > - Nice splice in the "Ages and Stages" video. :)
          >
          > - I was suprised at how little YP information was included compared to the
          > old CS Basic Training. Yes, I understand that the YP 'intro' in the old
          > basic was NOT 'YP Training', and yes, I've been to the full YP training.
          > But unless I missed it there was no mention of what I personally feel is
          > probably the most important YP rule -- no one-on-one. I mean they
          talked
          > about the 'no youth in adult tents' rule; couldn't they have afforded
          > another 45 seconds for 'no one-on-one'? Did anyone else pick up on
          this?
          > Seems like a glaring oversight to me, especially when the official
          answer
          > appears to be, "Well you need to attend YP training". I agree, every
          > leader *should* attend YP, but unless it is made manditory there are a
          > lot who won't. And telling brand-new leaders that have already given up
          > one [late] evening and are looking at spending a good part of a Saturday
          > to finish their training that they need to attend *another* course
          sounds
          > like a questionable strategy to me.
          >
          >
          > Thoughts?
          >
          > --
          > Stu Allen email: allensr@...
          > CM/MC Pack/Troop 92
          > Spencerport NY
          >
          >
          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Stu Allen
          ... Oh, you mean the scene where they re crossing the bridge, and the adults are labelled two deep the the gorge is too deep ? :-) But two-deep is NOT the
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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            > there is a part in the video that goes into two deep leadership. It is in
            > the very beginning. Maybe you missed it.

            Oh, you mean the scene where they're crossing the bridge, and the adults are
            labelled "two deep" the the gorge is "too deep"? :-)

            But two-deep is NOT the same as no one-on-one.

            From the G2SS:

            - Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader
            and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older,
            are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is
            responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all
            activities.

            - No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members
            is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as
            a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other
            adults and youths.

            In this section of the G2SS there is a list of 10 "Barriers to Abuse", of
            which these are two. This same list appears in YP training and elsewhere,
            and is BSA policy (in bold type in the G2SS).

            My concern is that NLE mentions *2* of these 10, and IMHO does NOT metion
            the most important one. (No one-on-one)

            We need to remember our target audience here. I'd be willing to bet that
            75% of the folks taking NLE are brand new CS den leaders, and chances are
            that they are taking NLE and PST during the same time period that they are
            having their first den meetings. So we get them to go to NLE (yeah!) and
            they leave knowing that they need to have another parent along if they
            take a field trip, that men & women need separate sleeping accomodations,
            and that boys can't stay in tents with adults other than their parent or
            guardian. Oh -- and that the BSA has a "zero tolerance" policy for abuse.

            But they DONT'T know that it's not OK to pull a boy into a different room
            (out of view of the other boys/adults) for a private conference on something.

            This puts the boys at risk and puts the leader at risk too.

            And if the BSA wasn't concerned about this, it wouldn't be policy.

            Most (all?) of us on this list are experienced scouters and take things like
            this for granted. But many of the folks attending NLE have *zero* knowledge
            of scouting, and would have no clue that this is a rule in the BSA.

            Thus my original point -- they should have spent the extra 45 seconds in
            the video and mentioned that rule. It may be months before these leaders
            get to YP training, if they ever do.

            So one of the things I'm planning to do at our pack's next leaders' meeting
            is talk a bit more about YP ....

            YiS,
            Stu

            --
            Stu Allen email: allensr@...
            CM/MC Pack/Troop 92
            Spencerport NY
          • Steve Meyers
            I admit to being curious about one thing. Is my council the only one that places a Youth Protection block on the leader application? A leader has to sign a
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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              I admit to being curious about one thing. Is my council the only one that places a Youth Protection block on the leader application?
              A leader has to sign a block wherein they promise to complete Youth Protection Training within 60 days of signing the application.

              Steve Meyers
              Pellissippi District
              Great Smoky Mountain Council

              At 11:07 AM 10/4/01 -0400, you wrote:
              > > there is a part in the video that goes into two deep leadership. It is in
              > > the very beginning. Maybe you missed it.
              >
              >Oh, you mean the scene where they're crossing the bridge, and the adults are
              >labelled "two deep" the the gorge is "too deep"? :-)
              >
              >But two-deep is NOT the same as no one-on-one.
              >
              > From the G2SS:
              >
              >- Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader
              > and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older,
              > are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is
              > responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all
              > activities.
              >
              >- No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members
              > is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as
              > a Scoutmaster's conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other
              > adults and youths.
              >
              >In this section of the G2SS there is a list of 10 "Barriers to Abuse", of
              >which these are two. This same list appears in YP training and elsewhere,
              >and is BSA policy (in bold type in the G2SS).
              >
              >My concern is that NLE mentions *2* of these 10, and IMHO does NOT metion
              >the most important one. (No one-on-one)
              >
              >We need to remember our target audience here. I'd be willing to bet that
              >75% of the folks taking NLE are brand new CS den leaders, and chances are
              >that they are taking NLE and PST during the same time period that they are
              >having their first den meetings. So we get them to go to NLE (yeah!) and
              >they leave knowing that they need to have another parent along if they
              >take a field trip, that men & women need separate sleeping accomodations,
              >and that boys can't stay in tents with adults other than their parent or
              >guardian. Oh -- and that the BSA has a "zero tolerance" policy for abuse.
              >
              >But they DONT'T know that it's not OK to pull a boy into a different room
              >(out of view of the other boys/adults) for a private conference on something.
              >
              >This puts the boys at risk and puts the leader at risk too.
              >
              >And if the BSA wasn't concerned about this, it wouldn't be policy.
              >
              >Most (all?) of us on this list are experienced scouters and take things like
              >this for granted. But many of the folks attending NLE have *zero* knowledge
              >of scouting, and would have no clue that this is a rule in the BSA.
              >
              >Thus my original point -- they should have spent the extra 45 seconds in
              >the video and mentioned that rule. It may be months before these leaders
              >get to YP training, if they ever do.
              >
              >So one of the things I'm planning to do at our pack's next leaders' meeting
              >is talk a bit more about YP ....
              >
              >YiS,
              >Stu
              >
              >--
              >Stu Allen email: allensr@...
              >CM/MC Pack/Troop 92
              >Spencerport NY
              >
              >
              >For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
            • jmstall@yahoo.com
              Istrouma Area Council (Baton Rouge, LA) requires Youth Protection training within 90 days of registration. The training must be repeated at least every 5
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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                Istrouma Area Council (Baton Rouge, LA) requires Youth Protection
                training within 90 days of registration. The training must be
                repeated at least every 5 years.

                Stu does make a good point that NLE and Cub PST seem a little light
                on YP issues. In the sessions I have done, I have stressed both 2-
                deep and no one on one and quickly mentioned a couple of other Cub
                safety issues like BB-guns, canoeing, swimming, etc. This all adds
                about a minute to my delivery timing. We also encourage Pack folks
                delivering Fast Start to go over these issues and I cover them when I
                do "mop up" Fast Start.

                YiS,

                Jak Stallings
                Trainnig Chairman
                Cypress Chauve District
                Istrouma Area Council
                Prairieville, LA

                --- In scouter_t@y..., Steve Meyers <meyerses@o...> wrote:
                > I admit to being curious about one thing. Is my council the only
                one that places a Youth Protection block on the leader application?
                > A leader has to sign a block wherein they promise to complete Youth
                Protection Training within 60 days of signing the application.
                >
                > Steve Meyers
                > Pellissippi District
                > Great Smoky Mountain Council
              • Kevin Pate
                Just a thought, as I ve not helped staff a NLE (yet). It seems one could simply salt the parking lot question board with a YPT or 2 deep or other important
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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                  Just a thought, as I've not helped staff a NLE (yet).
                  It seems one could simply 'salt' the parking lot
                  question board with a YPT or 2 deep or other important
                  question.

                  This would serve as a reminder to the trainer to
                  address the issue, it highlights the parking lot
                  concept for the participants, and as an added bonus,
                  it might also break down any "I don't wanna be the
                  first one to scrape my bumper in the parking lot"
                  barrier that some folks can feel about asking a
                  question during training.

                  After all, a deserted parking lot just seems
                  unfriendly. Besiudes, after you've been around
                  Scouting awhile, ya know some of the best
                  conversations almost always came up from the parking
                  lot outside, so ti seems that some great information
                  could be invoked via the new inside parking lot too.
                  8^)

                  kevinpate@...
                  Norman, OK


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                • bufflo@juno.com
                  My training staff & I just delivered NLE and Cub Scout Leader Job Specific. We offered YPT on the same night we presented NLE. That way we could ensure the
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 4, 2001
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                    My training staff & I just delivered NLE and Cub Scout Leader Job
                    Specific. We offered YPT on the same night we presented NLE. That way
                    we could ensure the leaders received YPT. In the past with the old
                    courses - the other districts offered YPT as well. SO my district
                    decided to try it. The second night was devoted to just the Job
                    Specific. At the end of October we are offering a one day training 9-2
                    offering YPT, NLE & Job Specific.

                    I agree that the courses don't leave much room for the pizzazz features.
                    Also, as a trainer for the past 15 years, I find that there is important
                    stuff the new cub leaders need to know which isn't offered. Time will
                    tell about all of this. We don't use the power point as we don't have
                    easy access to the equipment. Some of my team is rather new at training
                    & we haven't had a TDC yet. So we are doing the best that we can with
                    other visuals.

                    Does anyone know of the status of the monthly Cub Leader enhancements and
                    the other supplemental stuff that was part of the last training program
                    for Cubs?

                    YIS,
                    Laura Lyster
                    bufflo@...
                    Pathfinder District Cub Training Chair
                    EC-CS-19 buffalo, C-30L-97 fox, C-CS-7 Eagle den counselor
                    ACC of Roundtable
                  • Rfisher
                    ... Common misconception. Two-Deep leadership is NOT the same thing as the prohibition of one-to-one! Two deep leadership applies to trips and outings (not
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 5, 2001
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                      Debbie Beer wrote:

                      > there is a part in the video that goes into two deep leadership. It is in
                      > the very beginning. Maybe you missed it.

                      Common misconception. Two-Deep leadership is NOT the same thing as the
                      prohibition of one-to-one!

                      Two deep leadership applies to trips and outings (not that it isn't a
                      good idea at meetings, etc.), but no one-on-one applies EVERYWHERE and
                      can be accomplished by having two (or more) youth and one adult as well
                      as it can with two (or more) adults and one youth.

                      YiS

                      Roy Fisher
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