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Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout

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  • Robert
    I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB. He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other scouts
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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      I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB. He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other scouts in his troop does for PF MB.

      So what I am asking from anyone suggestions on which exercises or how the scout can do the exercises to be completed? I am not the PF MB counciler so I do not understand what exercises are really need to be done and how they should be recorded.
    • Corinna Jones
      Robert, My youngest son has high-functioning Autism. He hates exercising, but loves to swim. He hasn t had formal lessons yet, but still did his Aquanaut at
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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        Robert,
        My youngest son has high-functioning Autism. He hates exercising, but loves
        to swim. He hasn't had formal lessons yet, but still did his Aquanaut at
        camp with no problems.

        Swimming might be an option.
        The MB targets progress and improvement for 90 days. If I remember it also
        looked for body composition. If the family can get him into the water 3-4
        days a week for at least an hour, it should make an impact.

        If that's too difficult, walking with some extra motions might get him to
        the goal. The gym teacher might also have some suggestions about what worked
        for him and what didn't.

        Good luck, and lots of patience,
        Corinna

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Robert
        Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:38 AM
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout

        I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB.
        He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other
        scouts in his troop does for PF MB.

        So what I am asking from anyone suggestions on which exercises or how the
        scout can do the exercises to be completed? I am not the PF MB counciler so
        I do not understand what exercises are really need to be done and how they
        should be recorded.



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      • Tim Shea
        Contact your District or Council Advancement Chair and inquire about the alternates for Scout with Disabilities. It is a process requiring some planning
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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          Contact your District or Council Advancement Chair and inquire about the
          alternates for Scout with Disabilities. It is a process requiring some
          planning especially for Eagle. Do not wait.

          Tim

          Former District Advancement Chair



          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Corinna Jones
          Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 11:04 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout





          Robert,
          My youngest son has high-functioning Autism. He hates exercising, but loves
          to swim. He hasn't had formal lessons yet, but still did his Aquanaut at
          camp with no problems.

          Swimming might be an option.
          The MB targets progress and improvement for 90 days. If I remember it also
          looked for body composition. If the family can get him into the water 3-4
          days a week for at least an hour, it should make an impact.

          If that's too difficult, walking with some extra motions might get him to
          the goal. The gym teacher might also have some suggestions about what worked

          for him and what didn't.

          Good luck, and lots of patience,
          Corinna

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Robert
          Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 8:38 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout

          I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB.
          He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other
          scouts in his troop does for PF MB.

          So what I am asking from anyone suggestions on which exercises or how the
          scout can do the exercises to be completed? I am not the PF MB counciler so
          I do not understand what exercises are really need to be done and how they
          should be recorded.

          ------------------------------------

          For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t-help%40yahoogroups.com>

          Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Connie Knie
          Hello Robert, I am a merit badge counselor for Personal (not Physical) Fitness. If you have the scout take a look at the requirements really only at one time
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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            Hello Robert,
            I am a merit badge counselor for Personal (not Physical) Fitness. If you have the scout take a look at the requirements really only at one time is he required to do what the other scouts are doing as far as exercises and that is for the specific tests. Other than that he is supposed to come up with his own 12 week program and have it approved by the counselor. All he needs to do is keep a record of what he is doing, revisit the specifc tests every 2 weeks and show improvement from the initial results. So that should take off the pressure of having to do what everyone else is doing.......... I hope that helps.........

            Connie



            I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB.
            He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other
            scouts in his troop does for PF MB.

            So what I am asking from anyone suggestions on which exercises or how the
            scout can do the exercises to be completed?  I am not the PF MB counciler so
            I do not understand what exercises are really need to be done and how they
            should be recorded.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Brian Duane
            There is a requirement for Before doing requirements 7 and 8, complete the aerobic fitness, flexibility, muscular strength, and body composition tests as
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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              There is a requirement for

              Before doing requirements 7 and 8, complete the aerobic fitness, flexibility, muscular strength, and body composition tests as described in the Personal Fitness merit badge pamphlet. Record your results and identify those areas where you feel you need to improve.

              AEROBIC FITNESS TEST
              Record your performance on one of the following tests:

              a. Run/walk as far as you can in nine minutes.
              b. Run/walk one mile as fast as you can.
              FLEXIBILITY TEST

              Using a sit-and-reach box constructed according to specifications in the Personal Fitness merit badge pamphlet, make four repetitions and record the fourth reach. This last reach must be held steady for 15 seconds to qualify. (Remember to keep your knees down.)
              STRENGTH TESTS
              Record your performance on all three tests.

              a. Sit-ups. Record the number of sit-ups done correctly in 60 seconds. The sit-ups must be done in the form explained and illustrated in the Personal Fitness merit badge pamphlet.
              b. Pull-ups. Record the total number of pull-ups completed correctly in 60 seconds. Be consistent with the procedures presented in the Personal Fitness merit badge pamphlet.
              c. Push-ups. Record the total number of push-ups completed correctly in 60 seconds. Be consistent with the procedures presented in the Personal Fitness merit badge pamphlet.
              This is a do and record your results before and after Requirements 7 & 8. Hopefully, this is not the issue. The scout should be able to complete these. It does not matter that it takes 1 hour to walk a mile, or he can only do 1 push-up. This is only a measurement.

              Requirement 7 says establish a plan. That is a plan for the Scout. It really should not be a plan that "the other Scouts in his troop does". It is his plan. His MB counselor should be able to work with him to help establish a plan.

              Remember that the recording of AEROBIC FITNESS TEST, FLEXIBILITY TEST, and STRENGTH TESTS is a requirement that cannot be changed at the discression of the MB Counselor (there is a different process to seek alternate requirements due to disability). But that requirement 7 and 8 are requirements for establishing and completing an individual plan and that is the work of the Scout, guided by the MB counselor. There is no requirement that "Scout A" and "Scout B" all do the same plan for req 7 and 8.

              Although I am a PF MB Counselor, I hesitate to suggest any exercise for a Scout that I do not know. But consider that golf is exercise, as is walking, as are push-ups, as is lifting weights, as it playing badminton, as is wrestling with your brother in the back yard. From my perspective, just about anything that gets the Scout up off the couch is acceptable. And as a counselor, I challange each Scout based on what I know about them. Running a mile a day for a long distance runner on the cross-counrty team is not a challanging exercise, but it is certainly too much for my scout with arthritis. Again, my point is that the exercise plan is unique to the Scout.

              Brian


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert
              Sent: Mar 27, 2012 8:38 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout

              I have a scout that has Asperger who wants to get his personal fitness MB. He is having problems physical and mentally doing the exercises that other scouts in his troop does for PF MB.

              So what I am asking from anyone suggestions on which exercises or how the scout can do the exercises to be completed? I am not the PF MB counciler so I do not understand what exercises are really need to be done and how they should be recorded.
            • Connie Knie
              Unless the scout is physically unable to exercise this doesn t seem like the right avenue. The issue seems that he just isn t comfortable doing what the other
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                Unless the scout is physically unable to exercise this doesn't seem like the right avenue. The issue seems that he just isn't comfortable doing what the other scouts are doing. And that is not an issue at all because except for the required tests he has to do the 12 week program is all about him........... so he just needs to write one that challenges him and then keep tracking it.

                Connie

                --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Tim Shea <shea_tim@...> wrote:

                Contact your District or Council Advancement Chair and inquire about the
                alternates for Scout with Disabilities. It is a process requiring some
                planning especially for Eagle. Do not wait.

                Tim



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • A. Dukovic
                All, as has already been stated, the District and Council Advancement Committees can provide alternate requirements, NOT the MB counselor please; the Scout
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                  All, as has already been stated, the District and Council Advancement Committees can provide "alternate" requirements, NOT the MB counselor please; the Scout in question also needs to be "tagged" in Scoutnet as "special needs" as well, to insure there are no problems as he makes his way toward Eagle.
                   
                  This is NOT a big deal, and your Council Registrar is the ONLY one that has access to that information, which is "confidential"; the "tag" does NOT appear on any roster or list, but simply allows the boy "additional" time to earn his Eagle if he needs it.


                  - Art
                  --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:

                  From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 11:42 AM



                   



                  Unless the scout is physically unable to exercise this doesn't seem like the right avenue. The issue seems that he just isn't comfortable doing what the other scouts are doing. And that is not an issue at all because except for the required tests he has to do the 12 week program is all about him........... so he just needs to write one that challenges him and then keep tracking it.

                  Connie

                  --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Tim Shea <shea_tim@...> wrote:

                  Contact your District or Council Advancement Chair and inquire about the
                  alternates for Scout with Disabilities. It is a process requiring some
                  planning especially for Eagle. Do not wait.

                  Tim

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • David Wildschuetz
                  I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.   First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement Committee is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                    I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.  

                    First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement
                    Committee is responsible for deciding on the "alternatives".  The DAC can
                    assist, but only in an advisory capacity. 


                    Secondly, requirements can not altered to allow the Scout to achieve the merit
                    badge.  Instead, an alternative merit badge is chosen to replace the one
                    that the Scout is unable to complete, due to a permanent phyiscal or mental
                    limitation.  At one time, the Scout was required to complete all of the
                    requirements of the Eagle required badge before attempting to gain an
                    alternative, but that was eliminated some years ago. 


                    In addition, you are required to provide a medical statement from a
                    doctor explaining the extent of the limitation and a completed application for
                    an alternative Eagle Merit Badge.  And if the alternative that is chosen
                    involves physical activity, it must be approved by the boy's doctor.

                    David Wildschuetz
                    Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                    http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                    ________________________________
                    From: A. Dukovic <artdukovic@...>
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, March 27, 2012 4:27:11 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout

                     
                    All, as has already been stated, the District and Council Advancement Committees
                    can provide "alternate" requirements, NOT the MB counselor please; the Scout in
                    question also needs to be "tagged" in Scoutnet as "special needs" as well, to
                    insure there are no problems as he makes his way toward Eagle.
                     
                    This is NOT a big deal, and your Council Registrar is the ONLY one that has
                    access to that information, which is "confidential"; the "tag" does NOT appear
                    on any roster or list, but simply allows the boy "additional" time to earn his
                    Eagle if he needs it.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Connie Knie
                    David is correct (as usual) only the Council Advanment Committee can make the determination on which MB to use as an alternative but individual requirements
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                      David is correct (as usual) only the Council Advanment Committee can make the determination on which MB to use as an alternative but individual requirements don't change.
                       
                      BUT........ in reference to the original question No where did the OP state the scout couldn't do the requirements. He just isn't comfortable doing the ones the other scouts are doing. I don't see where this would qualify as stated by the OP.........

                      Connie

                      --- On Tue, 3/27/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:
                      I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.  

                      First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement
                      Committee is responsible for deciding on the "alternatives".  The DAC can
                      assist, but only in an advisory capacity. 


                      Secondly, requirements can not altered to allow the Scout to achieve the merit
                      badge.  Instead, an alternative merit badge is chosen to replace the one
                      that the Scout is unable to complete, due to a permanent phyiscal or mental
                      limitation. 

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Herb
                      the advanceement committee will require a statement from the doctor saying it can t do the requirement. hd
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                        the advanceement committee will require a statement from the doctor saying it can't do the requirement.
                        hd

                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > David is correct (as usual) only the Council Advanment Committee can make the determination on which MB to use as an alternative but individual requirements don't change.
                        >  
                        > BUT........ in reference to the original question No where did the OP state the scout couldn't do the requirements. He just isn't comfortable doing the ones the other scouts are doing. I don't see where this would qualify as stated by the OP.........
                        >
                        > Connie
                        >
                        > --- On Tue, 3/27/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:
                        > I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.  
                        >
                        > First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement
                        > Committee is responsible for deciding on the "alternatives".  The DAC can
                        > assist, but only in an advisory capacity. 
                        >
                        >
                        > Secondly, requirements can not altered to allow the Scout to achieve the merit
                        > badge.  Instead, an alternative merit badge is chosen to replace the one
                        > that the Scout is unable to complete, due to a permanent phyiscal or mental
                        > limitation. 
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Herb
                        There is a form on this web site. Gets signed by the parents, doctor district committee and council committee. So apparently the district looks first.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                          There is a form on this web site. Gets signed by the parents, doctor district committee and council committee. So apparently the district looks first.
                          http://www.wwswd.org/

                          herb d

                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Herb" <hadulzo@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > the advanceement committee will require a statement from the doctor saying it can't do the requirement.
                          > hd
                          >
                          > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > David is correct (as usual) only the Council Advanment Committee can make the determination on which MB to use as an alternative but individual requirements don't change.
                          > >  
                          > > BUT........ in reference to the original question No where did the OP state the scout couldn't do the requirements. He just isn't comfortable doing the ones the other scouts are doing. I don't see where this would qualify as stated by the OP.........
                          > >
                          > > Connie
                          > >
                          > > --- On Tue, 3/27/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@> wrote:
                          > > I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.  
                          > >
                          > > First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement
                          > > Committee is responsible for deciding on the "alternatives".  The DAC can
                          > > assist, but only in an advisory capacity. 
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Secondly, requirements can not altered to allow the Scout to achieve the merit
                          > > badge.  Instead, an alternative merit badge is chosen to replace the one
                          > > that the Scout is unable to complete, due to a permanent phyiscal or mental
                          > > limitation. 
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • A. Dukovic
                          Yep, spoke too soon, sorry; in my Council, the requests are submitted thru the District to the Council and everyone participates, but the decision IS MADE by
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                            Yep, spoke too soon, sorry; in my Council, the requests are submitted thru the District to the Council and everyone participates, but the decision IS MADE by the Council Advancement Committee. And yes, MB requirements cannot be changed but alternatives can be agreed to, again by the Council Advancement Committee.
                             
                            All this, thank heavens, is clearly spelled out in the latest BSA 2011 Advancement Guide            # 33088 folks.  Like the new Eagle Workbook, National has clearly put some thought into giving simple guidance for a change to volunteers!!   


                            - Art
                            --- On Tue, 3/27/12, Herb <hadulzo@...> wrote:

                            From: Herb <hadulzo@...>
                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, March 27, 2012, 5:37 PM



                             



                            the advanceement committee will require a statement from the doctor saying it can't do the requirement.
                            hd

                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > David is correct (as usual) only the Council Advanment Committee can make the determination on which MB to use as an alternative but individual requirements don't change.
                            >  
                            > BUT........ in reference to the original question No where did the OP state the scout couldn't do the requirements. He just isn't comfortable doing the ones the other scouts are doing. I don't see where this would qualify as stated by the OP.........
                            >
                            > Connie
                            >
                            > --- On Tue, 3/27/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:
                            > I believe that statement is incorrect, or at least misleading.  
                            >
                            > First off, the District does not factor into it.  The Council Advancement
                            > Committee is responsible for deciding on the "alternatives".  The DAC can
                            > assist, but only in an advisory capacity. 
                            >
                            >
                            > Secondly, requirements can not altered to allow the Scout to achieve the merit
                            > badge.  Instead, an alternative merit badge is chosen to replace the one
                            > that the Scout is unable to complete, due to a permanent phyiscal or mental
                            > limitation. 
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >








                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Paul
                            ... district committee and council committee. So apparently the district looks first. ... Unfortunately that web site is seriously out of date (they are
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 27, 2012
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                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Herb" <hadulzo@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > There is a form on this web site. Gets signed by the parents, doctor
                              district committee and council committee. So apparently the district
                              looks first.
                              > http://www.wwswd.org/

                              Unfortunately that web site is seriously out of date (they are showing
                              the Advancement Guidelines from 2010 that was recalled).

                              You need to take a look at the Guide to Advancement 2011, especially
                              paragraph 10.2.2.0 (Advancement for Boy Scouts and Varsity Scouts With
                              Disabilities) as well as paragraph 10.2.2.1 (Using Alternative
                              Requirements).

                              If you do not have a copy of this item, you can download a free copy
                              from here: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf
                              <http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf>

                              Please do not refer volunteers to unofficial web sites as that just
                              causes problems for those trying to get answer as they end up filling
                              out the wrong forms or following outdated policies which results in
                              frustration on their part.

                              Thanks,

                              Paul Y
                              District Advancement & Recognition Chair
                              Thunderbird District
                              Inland Northwest Council
                              Spokane WA
                              "Once a Fox, always a Fox"




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Maria
                              Coming into this a bit late. Is this a group MB? It maybe that what he has a problem with is doing this where others can see. It maybe way outside his comfort
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                Coming into this a bit late. Is this a group MB? It maybe that what
                                he has a problem with is doing this where others can see. It maybe
                                way outside his comfort zone and so he's shutting down mentally so as
                                not to do it.He may have been harassed over his physical condition in
                                the past and doesn't want to put himself in that position.

                                He may need to be doing the testing, etc. in private. Of course with
                                a parent as a buddy. As a MB counselor, I know it's a lot easier to
                                do group MB's and push for them myself.
                                ]
                                With Aspergers you often have to think outside the box to deal with
                                boys that suffer from it. Not going so far as to change the
                                requirements or do a different MB, but shift focus a bit to see the
                                basic requirements... not what everyone in the troop does.

                                Maria Hurley
                                Malvern, PA USA
                              • Paul
                                ... There is and has never been such a thing as a Group MB ! Here s what the latest Guide to Advancement 2011 says about group MBs : 7.0.3.2 Group
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Maria" <m34@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Coming into this a bit late. Is this a group MB?

                                  There is and has never been such a thing as a "Group MB"!

                                  Here's what the latest Guide to Advancement 2011 says about "group MBs":
                                  7.0.3.2 Group Instruction

                                  It is acceptable—and sometimes desirable—for merit badges to be
                                  taught in group settings. This often occurs at camp and merit badge
                                  midways or similar events. Interactive group discussions can support
                                  learning. The method can also be attractive to "guest experts"
                                  assisting registered and approved counselors. Slide shows, skits,
                                  demonstrations, panels, and various other techniques can also be
                                  employed, but as any teacher can attest, not everyone will learn all the
                                  material.

                                  There must be attention to each individual's projects and his
                                  fulfi llment of all requirements. We must know that every
                                  Scout—actually and personally—completed them. If, for example, a
                                  requirement uses words like "show," "demonstrate," or
                                  "discuss," then every Scout must do that. It is unacceptable to
                                  award badges on the basis of sitting in classrooms watching
                                  demonstrations, or remaining silent during discussions. Because of the
                                  importance of individual attention in the merit badge plan, group
                                  instruction should be limited to those scenarios where the benefits
                                  are compelling.
                                  And in large green text after the above:
                                  There must be attention to each individual's projects and his
                                  fulfi llment of all requirements. We must know that every
                                  Scout—actually and personally—completed them.
                                  So while group instruction might be appropriate, each Scout must
                                  personally pass all the requirements on an individual basis.

                                  This is no different than what the previous Advancement Committee Guide
                                  Policies and Procedures pamphlets have said.

                                  Paul Y
                                  District Advancement & Recognition Chair
                                  Thunderbird District
                                  Inland Northwest Council
                                  Spokane WA
                                  "Once a Fox, always a Fox"




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Wildschuetz
                                  That seems a bit harsh, and a bit contradictory when you follow it up with official documentation that talks about working on a merit badge as a group.  In
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                    That seems a bit harsh, and a bit contradictory when you follow it up with
                                    official documentation that talks about working on a merit badge as a group.  In
                                    this time of youth protection, two-deep leadership and the no one-on-one contact
                                    guidelines, group MB classes are becoming the norm.  As long as the Scout
                                    fulfills the requirements, what is wrong with doing the MB in a group setting.

                                     David Wildschuetz
                                    Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                    http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Paul <paulp575@...>
                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Wed, March 28, 2012 11:01:19 AM
                                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout



                                    >> Coming into this a bit late. Is this a group MB?

                                    There is and has never been such a thing as a "Group MB"!

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Paul
                                    ... with official documentation that talks about working on a merit badge as a group. That has always been the rule in that while you can work on the merit
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > That seems a bit harsh, and a bit contradictory when you follow it up
                                      with official documentation that talks about working on a merit badge as
                                      a group.

                                      That has always been the rule in that while you can work on the merit
                                      badge in a group, i.e., learning how to tie the various bandages and
                                      doing litter carrys for First Aid merit badge, a Scout is still required
                                      to pass the requirements individually. Remember, advancement is an
                                      individual effort - not a group effort.

                                      > In this time of youth protection, two-deep leadership and the no
                                      one-on-one contact guidelines, group MB classes are becoming the norm.

                                      That's the worst excuse I've ever heard of to justify merit badge
                                      classes!

                                      > As long as the Scout fulfills the requirements, what is wrong with
                                      doing the MB in a group setting.

                                      How do you know a Scout understands the requirements when in a group
                                      setting? Just because a Scout sat in a class does not mean he has an
                                      understanding of the requirements, let alone can do them.

                                      National has always required Scouts to pass merit badge requirements in
                                      front of a counselor. If one is not doing that, then they a providing a
                                      disservice to the youth.

                                      It is very easy to meet the current Youth Protection guidelines and
                                      still have a Scout pass the requirement individually in front of a
                                      counselor. Since some Scouts do not have valid driver's licenses, why
                                      not have the person who may be taking the Scout to the counselor sit in
                                      on the session? See, now you have the Scout individually passing the
                                      requirements, yet the Youth Protection guideline is fully met! Or have
                                      the session in a public place where others can see the Scout and
                                      counselor. This is allowed!

                                      Paul Y
                                      District Advancement & Recognition Chair
                                      Thunderbird District
                                      Inland Northwest Council
                                      "Once a Fox, always a Fox"




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Wildschuetz
                                      Well, I can see I should have been more verbose in my explanation. Apparently, to some people As long as the Scout fulfills the requirements means
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                        Well, I can see I should have been more verbose in my explanation. Apparently,
                                        to some people "As long as the Scout fulfills the requirements" means something
                                        different when a merit badge is done as a group as opposed to one-on-one.

                                        I never said that the counselor passes the Scout for being part of the class.
                                        Even at Scout Camp, that is supposed to be understood. If the requirement says
                                        the scout is to do this or that, then the scout does this or that. The
                                        counselor can take each Scout to validate that the requirements are met during
                                        a group setting just like if they were working with an individual Scout.

                                        David Wildschuetz
                                        Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                        http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Paul <paulp575@...>
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wed, March 28, 2012 11:59:31 AM
                                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout


                                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > That seems a bit harsh, and a bit contradictory when you follow it up
                                        with official documentation that talks about working on a merit badge as
                                        a group.

                                        That has always been the rule in that while you can work on the merit
                                        badge in a group, i.e., learning how to tie the various bandages and
                                        doing litter carrys for First Aid merit badge, a Scout is still required
                                        to pass the requirements individually. Remember, advancement is an
                                        individual effort - not a group effort.

                                        > In this time of youth protection, two-deep leadership and the no
                                        one-on-one contact guidelines, group MB classes are becoming the norm.

                                        That's the worst excuse I've ever heard of to justify merit badge
                                        classes!

                                        > As long as the Scout fulfills the requirements, what is wrong with
                                        doing the MB in a group setting.

                                        How do you know a Scout understands the requirements when in a group
                                        setting? Just because a Scout sat in a class does not mean he has an
                                        understanding of the requirements, let alone can do them.

                                        National has always required Scouts to pass merit badge requirements in
                                        front of a counselor. If one is not doing that, then they a providing a
                                        disservice to the youth.

                                        It is very easy to meet the current Youth Protection guidelines and
                                        still have a Scout pass the requirement individually in front of a
                                        counselor. Since some Scouts do not have valid driver's licenses, why
                                        not have the person who may be taking the Scout to the counselor sit in
                                        on the session? See, now you have the Scout individually passing the
                                        requirements, yet the Youth Protection guideline is fully met! Or have
                                        the session in a public place where others can see the Scout and
                                        counselor. This is allowed!

                                        Paul Y
                                        District Advancement & Recognition Chair
                                        Thunderbird District
                                        Inland Northwest Council
                                        "Once a Fox, always a Fox"

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Jamie Niss Dunn
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                          <<How do you know a Scout understands the requirements when in a group
                                          setting? Just because a Scout sat in a class does not mean he has an
                                          understanding of the requirements, let alone can do them.

                                          National has always required Scouts to pass merit badge requirements in
                                          front of a counselor. If one is not doing that, then they a providing a
                                          disservice to the youth.>>




                                          In addition, group merit badge classes deprive the Scout of the adult association which is supposed to be a part of the merit badge experience. The Scout learns and grows from making the call to the counselor, working with different individuals on various badges, dealing with different personalities, etc.

                                          By arranging "classes" as part of troop meetings, even if they are initiated by the Scouts, we short change the Scouts. Holding their hands through the merit badge process is NOT developing independence or self-confidence - it's treating them like little kids.

                                          Jamie Niss Dunn
                                          Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                          Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                          Troop Committee, Troop 509
                                          Ham Lake, MN
                                          Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                          Three Rivers District




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Paul
                                          ... association which is supposed to be a part of the merit badge experience. The Scout learns and grows from making the call to the counselor, working with
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > In addition, group merit badge classes deprive the Scout of the adult
                                            association which is supposed to be a part of the merit badge
                                            experience. The Scout learns and grows from making the call to the
                                            counselor, working with different individuals on various badges, dealing
                                            with different personalities, etc.
                                            >
                                            > By arranging "classes" as part of troop meetings, even if they are
                                            initiated by the Scouts, we short change the Scouts. Holding their hands
                                            through the merit badge process is NOT developing independence or
                                            self-confidence - it's treating them like little kids.

                                            Thank you for saying what I should have said.

                                            Please don't misunderstand me, in some situations, classes on merit
                                            badge subjects are great; they do provide interaction amongst the
                                            attendees. And it might open up a subject/topic a Scout previously
                                            didn't have an interest in.

                                            I am the registrar for our district's merit badge college and we are
                                            very adamant about how merit badges are to be completed. We provide very
                                            specific instructions to our counselors as to what they CAN do and what
                                            they MUST do, i.e., individually pass EACH Scout on the requirements;
                                            that they can not do this just because a Scout sits in a class.

                                            When we changed to this way of doing things two years ago (before I was
                                            involved), I thought for sure we'd loose some counselors and Scouts, but
                                            we did not. In fact, we did receive several comments about finally doing
                                            it the way the program is supposed to be done. And we did pick up some
                                            counselors who preferred the right way!

                                            As for the Scouts, it's been tough on them as they thought all they need
                                            to do is attend the class and they will get the badge. Although I think
                                            that mindset is changing as we started emphasizing the fact there will
                                            be work required BETWEEN and AFTER the dates of the college (we hold it
                                            on two different Saturdays about a month apart).

                                            Paul Y
                                            District Advancement & Recognition Chair
                                            Thunderbird District
                                            Inland Northwest Council
                                            Spokane WA
                                            "Once a Fox, always a Fox"
                                          • Rick Pushies
                                            Jamie has some excellent points. The process of finding out who the merit badge counselors are and then making contact with a counselor, who is often unknown
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                              Jamie has some excellent points. The process of finding out who the merit badge counselors are and then making contact with a counselor, who is often unknown to the Scout, is a profound experience that helps our Scouts develop character. Then ensuring youth protection policies are enforced adds an additional yet worthy challenge for all involved.

                                              Although merit badge clinics can make the process of earning a merit badge expedient, merit badge clinic are not always the best learning experience for our Scouts. I am saddened by the trend in Scouting where there is a  willingness of so many to deviate from the tried and true methods that have sustained the Scouting Movement for over a century.



                                              >________________________________
                                              > From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                                              >To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                              >Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:54 AM
                                              >Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Physical Fitness MB with Asperbers Scout
                                              >
                                              >

                                              >
                                              >
                                              ><<How do you know a Scout understands the requirements when in a group
                                              >setting? Just because a Scout sat in a class does not mean he has an
                                              >understanding of the requirements, let alone can do them.
                                              >
                                              >National has always required Scouts to pass merit badge requirements in
                                              >front of a counselor. If one is not doing that, then they a providing a
                                              >disservice to the youth.>>
                                              >
                                              >In addition, group merit badge classes deprive the Scout of the adult association which is supposed to be a part of the merit badge experience. The Scout learns and grows from making the call to the counselor, working with different individuals on various badges, dealing with different personalities, etc.
                                              >
                                              >By arranging "classes" as part of troop meetings, even if they are initiated by the Scouts, we short change the Scouts. Holding their hands through the merit badge process is NOT developing independence or self-confidence - it's treating them like little kids.
                                              >
                                              >Jamie Niss Dunn
                                              >Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                              >Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                              >Troop Committee, Troop 509
                                              >Ham Lake, MN
                                              >Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                              >Three Rivers District
                                              >
                                              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Maria
                                              I understand what you are saying, and that is exactly what I meant. A MB done in a group setting. Like at camp or partially during troop meetings. Maria Hurley
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                                I understand what you are saying, and that is exactly what I meant. A
                                                MB done in a group setting. Like at camp or partially during troop
                                                meetings.



                                                Maria Hurley
                                                Malvern, PA USA
                                              • Maria
                                                We are getting away from the original question. The reason I asked if it was a group MB was exactly because of how a MB is suppose to be taught in a group
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                                  We are getting away from the original question. The reason I asked if
                                                  it was a group MB was exactly because of how a MB is suppose to be
                                                  taught in a group setting.

                                                  As you said:
                                                  > There must be attention to each individual's projects and his
                                                  > fulfilment of all requirements. We must know that every
                                                  > Scout-actually and personally-completed them. If, for example, a
                                                  > requirement uses words like "show," "demonstrate," or
                                                  > "discuss," then every Scout must do that.

                                                  A boy with Aspergers might easily have problems with a Physical
                                                  Fitness MB done in a group setting, if it was done correctly... and
                                                  not just passed for showing up. He might still have some problems in
                                                  a more private setting, but they might be manageable.






                                                  Maria Hurley
                                                  Malvern, PA USA
                                                • Connie Knie
                                                  I feel our troop successfully just did Personal Fitness as a group (sort of). We had speakers come in and cover alot of the requirements like nutrition,
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 28, 2012
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                                                    I feel our troop successfully just did Personal Fitness as a group (sort of). We had speakers come in and cover alot of the requirements like nutrition, components of physical fitness, what it means to be healthy, etc. These were just 20 minutes or so. Then we did the original tests as a group (you know the ones they have to repeat every two weeks). Then that was it for groups. They had to then go to individual counselors for the rest. The short talks were only helpful to the scouts who paid attention and took notes. And I believe that doing that initial testing together gave alot of them what they needed to get off to a good start. We told them in the beginning that no one would be receiving the merit badge until they met individually with a counselor..........
                                                     
                                                    The other one I did successfully at summer camp was Horsemanship. All of the riding lessons and grooming lessons and discussions were done as a group. But they had to do the riding tests alone, and all of the rest of the discussions were done one on one with my staff.........no gimmes...........
                                                     
                                                    So even if the scout in question was working on Personal Fitness initially in a group there is no reason he needs to do the same exercises everyone else is doing and technically everyone else shouldn't be doing the exact same thing anyway..........

                                                    Connie

                                                    --- On Wed, 3/28/12, Maria <m34@...> wrote:

                                                    I understand what you are saying, and that is exactly what I meant. A
                                                    MB done in a group setting. Like at camp or partially during troop
                                                    meetings.




                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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