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re: IOLS Test out or anything similar

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  • Mike Clark
    the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but the value added information & social interexchange when attending any
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 11, 2012
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      the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the

      NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but

      the value added information & social interexchange

      when attending any organized BSA program.



      The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not

      have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc.  However, would

      any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on

      Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying

      the requirements are written??



      The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased

      little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific

      Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago. 



      Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from

      other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.



       




      Michael E. Clark
      taskiagi261@...



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jim
      There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was were Scouting skills, then test outs would be easy and a lot more common. But the real
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 11, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was
        were Scouting skills, then "test outs" would be easy and a lot more
        common. But the real value of IOLS is in the insight gained from being
        in a troop setting, using the Patrol Method, and the first hand
        experience gained from seeing how the program is "supposed" to work.
        It has been my experience (as a UC, ADC, DC, District and Council
        training chair) that most districts have too many unit programs where
        the adult leaders do not fully appreciate how to implement the "patrol
        method" (or have never learned how in the first place). Too often we
        see adults not empowering boys to take responsibility for their own
        program, or even mentoring towards that end. Worst yet are units where
        the adults literally run the program, giving at best token leadership
        responsibility to the boys, all in the misguided perception of
        providing a "quality program". How is a boy going to learn the
        challenges of leadership and develop his leadership skills if he is
        not challenged to lead, and to fail if necessary. That is one of the
        primary purposes of Scouting, one of the eight methods we (supposedly)
        learned way back when. And THAT is the real power of the full hands-on
        course and the real learning that takes place beyond the skills
        themselves. I cannot figure out how you could accomplish all that with
        a "test out" option. At best, a "test out" is merely skills
        instruction/verification which is only half the training/learning.
        IMHO, a "test out" should be used as a last resort only, if at all.
        And I have not even mentioned the "fun" aspects of the training...
        something some adults need to learn too!

        Yours in Service to Scouting,
        -- Jim
        Central Florida Council





        On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Mike Clark wrote:

        >
        >
        > the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the
        >
        > NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but
        >
        > the value added information & social interexchange
        >
        > when attending any organized BSA program.
        >
        > The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not
        >
        > have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc. However, would
        >
        > any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on
        >
        > Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying
        >
        > the requirements are written??
        >
        > The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased
        >
        > little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific
        >
        > Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago.
        >
        > Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from
        >
        > other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.
        >
        >
        >
        > Michael E. Clark
        > taskiagi261@...
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Gottshall
        Jim brings up the issue of the lack of opportunity for an adult to experience the patrol method. As we move forward into the brave new world that has been laid
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 11, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Jim brings up the issue of the lack of opportunity for an adult to experience the patrol method.

          As we move forward into the brave new world that has been laid out before us, several issues will come to the forefront.

          1. Most new scout leader will not have been scouts.
          2. Most new scout leaders will not have had a military experience.

          These two facts make it even more critical that future adult leader training provides the following:

          1. Interaction with those who have been exposed to scouting as a youth.
          2. Provide first-hand experience working within a patrol structure.
          3. Provide experience in the idiosyncrasies of "Scout Craft" at a location where it is allowed.
          4. Provide practice in the methodology of BSA training method including the relation between adults and youth and how to provide "guided discovery" in the out-of-doors.
          5. Gain an appreciation of importance of the Outdoor Method and how it makes scouting different than other character-based youth programs.
          6. Develop contacts to provide a network of resources for your program.

          Within every Boy Scout Adult Leader training, these "non-skill" experiences need to be reinforced and expanded.

          If you think that IOLS is just a series of Tenderfoot to First Class sign offs, you are really short changing the course.

          Just my two cents ...

          Dave Gottshall
          Woburn, MA





          -----Original Message-----
          From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
          To: scouter_t <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12 pm
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar


          There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was
          were Scouting skills, then "test outs" would be easy and a lot more
          common. But the real value of IOLS is in the insight gained from being
          in a troop setting, using the Patrol Method, and the first hand
          experience gained from seeing how the program is "supposed" to work.
          It has been my experience (as a UC, ADC, DC, District and Council
          training chair) that most districts have too many unit programs where
          the adult leaders do not fully appreciate how to implement the "patrol
          method" (or have never learned how in the first place). Too often we
          see adults not empowering boys to take responsibility for their own
          program, or even mentoring towards that end. Worst yet are units where
          the adults literally run the program, giving at best token leadership
          responsibility to the boys, all in the misguided perception of
          providing a "quality program". How is a boy going to learn the
          challenges of leadership and develop his leadership skills if he is
          not challenged to lead, and to fail if necessary. That is one of the
          primary purposes of Scouting, one of the eight methods we (supposedly)
          learned way back when. And THAT is the real power of the full hands-on
          course and the real learning that takes place beyond the skills
          themselves. I cannot figure out how you could accomplish all that with
          a "test out" option. At best, a "test out" is merely skills
          instruction/verification which is only half the training/learning.
          IMHO, a "test out" should be used as a last resort only, if at all.
          And I have not even mentioned the "fun" aspects of the training...
          something some adults need to learn too!

          Yours in Service to Scouting,
          -- Jim
          Central Florida Council





          On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Mike Clark wrote:

          >
          >
          > the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the
          >
          > NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but
          >
          > the value added information & social interexchange
          >
          > when attending any organized BSA program.
          >
          > The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not
          >
          > have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc. However, would
          >
          > any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on
          >
          > Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying
          >
          > the requirements are written??
          >
          > The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased
          >
          > little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific
          >
          > Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago.
          >
          > Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from
          >
          > other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.
          >
          >
          >
          > Michael E. Clark
          > taskiagi261@...
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

          Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • peghite@yahoo.com
          Well said Peg Hite Nashboro Training Chair Middle Tennessee Council Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T ... From: David Gottshall Sender:
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 11, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Well said

            Peg Hite
            Nashboro Training Chair
            Middle Tennessee Council
            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

            -----Original Message-----
            From: David Gottshall <gottshalld@...>
            Sender: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:23:36
            To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
            Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar




            Jim brings up the issue of the lack of opportunity for an adult to experience the patrol method.

            As we move forward into the brave new world that has been laid out before us, several issues will come to the forefront.

            1. Most new scout leader will not have been scouts.
            2. Most new scout leaders will not have had a military experience.

            These two facts make it even more critical that future adult leader training provides the following:

            1. Interaction with those who have been exposed to scouting as a youth.
            2. Provide first-hand experience working within a patrol structure.
            3. Provide experience in the idiosyncrasies of "Scout Craft" at a location where it is allowed.
            4. Provide practice in the methodology of BSA training method including the relation between adults and youth and how to provide "guided discovery" in the out-of-doors.
            5. Gain an appreciation of importance of the Outdoor Method and how it makes scouting different than other character-based youth programs.
            6. Develop contacts to provide a network of resources for your program.

            Within every Boy Scout Adult Leader training, these "non-skill" experiences need to be reinforced and expanded.

            If you think that IOLS is just a series of Tenderfoot to First Class sign offs, you are really short changing the course.

            Just my two cents ...

            Dave Gottshall
            Woburn, MA





            -----Original Message-----
            From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
            To: scouter_t <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12 pm
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar


            There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was
            were Scouting skills, then "test outs" would be easy and a lot more
            common. But the real value of IOLS is in the insight gained from being
            in a troop setting, using the Patrol Method, and the first hand
            experience gained from seeing how the program is "supposed" to work.
            It has been my experience (as a UC, ADC, DC, District and Council
            training chair) that most districts have too many unit programs where
            the adult leaders do not fully appreciate how to implement the "patrol
            method" (or have never learned how in the first place). Too often we
            see adults not empowering boys to take responsibility for their own
            program, or even mentoring towards that end. Worst yet are units where
            the adults literally run the program, giving at best token leadership
            responsibility to the boys, all in the misguided perception of
            providing a "quality program". How is a boy going to learn the
            challenges of leadership and develop his leadership skills if he is
            not challenged to lead, and to fail if necessary. That is one of the
            primary purposes of Scouting, one of the eight methods we (supposedly)
            learned way back when. And THAT is the real power of the full hands-on
            course and the real learning that takes place beyond the skills
            themselves. I cannot figure out how you could accomplish all that with
            a "test out" option. At best, a "test out" is merely skills
            instruction/verification which is only half the training/learning.
            IMHO, a "test out" should be used as a last resort only, if at all.
            And I have not even mentioned the "fun" aspects of the training...
            something some adults need to learn too!

            Yours in Service to Scouting,
            -- Jim
            Central Florida Council





            On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Mike Clark wrote:

            >
            >
            > the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the
            >
            > NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but
            >
            > the value added information & social interexchange
            >
            > when attending any organized BSA program.
            >
            > The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not
            >
            > have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc. However, would
            >
            > any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on
            >
            > Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying
            >
            > the requirements are written??
            >
            > The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased
            >
            > little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific
            >
            > Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago.
            >
            > Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from
            >
            > other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.
            >
            >
            >
            > Michael E. Clark
            > taskiagi261@...
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

            Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill
            I don t see the Patrol Method being taught as part of the syllabus. You actually have to infer a lot to insert it. Personally, I don t like that and I would
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 18, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I don't see the Patrol Method being taught as part of the syllabus. You actually have to infer a lot to insert it.

              Personally, I don't like that and I would like to see it as an integrated part of the IOLS syllabus. But it would have to be updated to incorporate it.

              Bill
              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, peghite@... wrote:
              >
              > Well said
              >
              > Peg Hite
              > Nashboro Training Chair
              > Middle Tennessee Council
              > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: David Gottshall <gottshalld@...>
              > Sender: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:23:36
              > To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              > Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Jim brings up the issue of the lack of opportunity for an adult to experience the patrol method.
              >
              > As we move forward into the brave new world that has been laid out before us, several issues will come to the forefront.
              >
              > 1. Most new scout leader will not have been scouts.
              > 2. Most new scout leaders will not have had a military experience.
              >
              > These two facts make it even more critical that future adult leader training provides the following:
              >
              > 1. Interaction with those who have been exposed to scouting as a youth.
              > 2. Provide first-hand experience working within a patrol structure.
              > 3. Provide experience in the idiosyncrasies of "Scout Craft" at a location where it is allowed.
              > 4. Provide practice in the methodology of BSA training method including the relation between adults and youth and how to provide "guided discovery" in the out-of-doors.
              > 5. Gain an appreciation of importance of the Outdoor Method and how it makes scouting different than other character-based youth programs.
              > 6. Develop contacts to provide a network of resources for your program.
              >
              > Within every Boy Scout Adult Leader training, these "non-skill" experiences need to be reinforced and expanded.
              >
              > If you think that IOLS is just a series of Tenderfoot to First Class sign offs, you are really short changing the course.
              >
              > Just my two cents ...
              >
              > Dave Gottshall
              > Woburn, MA
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
              > To: scouter_t <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12 pm
              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar
              >
              >
              > There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was
              > were Scouting skills, then "test outs" would be easy and a lot more
              > common. But the real value of IOLS is in the insight gained from being
              > in a troop setting, using the Patrol Method, and the first hand
              > experience gained from seeing how the program is "supposed" to work.
              > It has been my experience (as a UC, ADC, DC, District and Council
              > training chair) that most districts have too many unit programs where
              > the adult leaders do not fully appreciate how to implement the "patrol
              > method" (or have never learned how in the first place). Too often we
              > see adults not empowering boys to take responsibility for their own
              > program, or even mentoring towards that end. Worst yet are units where
              > the adults literally run the program, giving at best token leadership
              > responsibility to the boys, all in the misguided perception of
              > providing a "quality program". How is a boy going to learn the
              > challenges of leadership and develop his leadership skills if he is
              > not challenged to lead, and to fail if necessary. That is one of the
              > primary purposes of Scouting, one of the eight methods we (supposedly)
              > learned way back when. And THAT is the real power of the full hands-on
              > course and the real learning that takes place beyond the skills
              > themselves. I cannot figure out how you could accomplish all that with
              > a "test out" option. At best, a "test out" is merely skills
              > instruction/verification which is only half the training/learning.
              > IMHO, a "test out" should be used as a last resort only, if at all.
              > And I have not even mentioned the "fun" aspects of the training...
              > something some adults need to learn too!
              >
              > Yours in Service to Scouting,
              > -- Jim
              > Central Florida Council
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Mike Clark wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the
              > >
              > > NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but
              > >
              > > the value added information & social interexchange
              > >
              > > when attending any organized BSA program.
              > >
              > > The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not
              > >
              > > have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc. However, would
              > >
              > > any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on
              > >
              > > Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying
              > >
              > > the requirements are written??
              > >
              > > The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased
              > >
              > > little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific
              > >
              > > Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago.
              > >
              > > Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from
              > >
              > > other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Michael E. Clark
              > > taskiagi261@...
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Charlie Hawes
              We teach the patrol method in our indoor sessions and then put it to use on the camp out.  Our ITOLS patrols are assigned a patrol coach who helps during the
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 19, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                We teach the patrol method in our indoor sessions and then put it to use on the camp out.  Our ITOLS patrols are assigned a patrol coach who helps during the camp out.
                 
                YIS (yours in scouting)
                Charlie  Hawes
                Sweetwater BSA District Trainer/ADC
                (863)398-7194



                ________________________________
                From: Bill <bnelson45@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 4:05 PM
                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: IOLS Test out or anything similar


                 

                I don't see the Patrol Method being taught as part of the syllabus. You actually have to infer a lot to insert it.

                Personally, I don't like that and I would like to see it as an integrated part of the IOLS syllabus. But it would have to be updated to incorporate it.

                Bill
                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, peghite@... wrote:
                >
                > Well said
                >
                > Peg Hite
                > Nashboro Training Chair
                > Middle Tennessee Council
                > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: David Gottshall <gottshalld@...>
                > Sender: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:23:36
                > To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                > Reply-To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Jim brings up the issue of the lack of opportunity for an adult to experience the patrol method.
                >
                > As we move forward into the brave new world that has been laid out before us, several issues will come to the forefront.
                >
                > 1. Most new scout leader will not have been scouts.
                > 2. Most new scout leaders will not have had a military experience.
                >
                > These two facts make it even more critical that future adult leader training provides the following:
                >
                > 1. Interaction with those who have been exposed to scouting as a youth.
                > 2. Provide first-hand experience working within a patrol structure.
                > 3. Provide experience in the idiosyncrasies of "Scout Craft" at a location where it is allowed.
                > 4. Provide practice in the methodology of BSA training method including the relation between adults and youth and how to provide "guided discovery" in the out-of-doors.
                > 5. Gain an appreciation of importance of the Outdoor Method and how it makes scouting different than other character-based youth programs.
                > 6. Develop contacts to provide a network of resources for your program.
                >
                > Within every Boy Scout Adult Leader training, these "non-skill" experiences need to be reinforced and expanded.
                >
                > If you think that IOLS is just a series of Tenderfoot to First Class sign offs, you are really short changing the course.
                >
                > Just my two cents ...
                >
                > Dave Gottshall
                > Woburn, MA
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
                > To: scouter_t <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sun, Mar 11, 2012 1:12 pm
                > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] re: IOLS Test out or anything similar
                >
                >
                > There is a lot more to IOLS than just the skills. If all there was
                > were Scouting skills, then "test outs" would be easy and a lot more
                > common. But the real value of IOLS is in the insight gained from being
                > in a troop setting, using the Patrol Method, and the first hand
                > experience gained from seeing how the program is "supposed" to work.
                > It has been my experience (as a UC, ADC, DC, District and Council
                > training chair) that most districts have too many unit programs where
                > the adult leaders do not fully appreciate how to implement the "patrol
                > method" (or have never learned how in the first place). Too often we
                > see adults not empowering boys to take responsibility for their own
                > program, or even mentoring towards that end. Worst yet are units where
                > the adults literally run the program, giving at best token leadership
                > responsibility to the boys, all in the misguided perception of
                > providing a "quality program". How is a boy going to learn the
                > challenges of leadership and develop his leadership skills if he is
                > not challenged to lead, and to fail if necessary. That is one of the
                > primary purposes of Scouting, one of the eight methods we (supposedly)
                > learned way back when. And THAT is the real power of the full hands-on
                > course and the real learning that takes place beyond the skills
                > themselves. I cannot figure out how you could accomplish all that with
                > a "test out" option. At best, a "test out" is merely skills
                > instruction/verification which is only half the training/learning.
                > IMHO, a "test out" should be used as a last resort only, if at all.
                > And I have not even mentioned the "fun" aspects of the training...
                > something some adults need to learn too!
                >
                > Yours in Service to Scouting,
                > -- Jim
                > Central Florida Council
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Mar 11, 2012, at 12:09 PM, Mike Clark wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > the real question behind the IOLS test-out is the
                > >
                > > NO ONLY TO HAVE TRAINED LEADERs but
                > >
                > > the value added information & social interexchange
                > >
                > > when attending any organized BSA program.
                > >
                > > The "Test out" option might work in a District which does not
                > >
                > > have "A GOOD TRAINING CULTURE", etc. However, would
                > >
                > > any Unit provide the same method for an Scout working on
                > >
                > > Eagle Award, Quartermaster, or Ranger Awards without satisfying
                > >
                > > the requirements are written??
                > >
                > > The number of TRAINED CUB Scout leaders has not increased
                > >
                > > little or dramatically as expected when the CS Leader Specific
                > >
                > > Training was introduced on myscouting.org a year ago.
                > >
                > > Again, many new leader fail to get the "first-hand" experiences from
                > >
                > > other Leaders met at District or Council level training session.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Michael E. Clark
                > > taskiagi261@...
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
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