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Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS Trainings

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  • Bill Nelson
    The 18yos find Outdoor skills boring for the most part. The reaction I have had in Specific was, “so that is what boy lead meant.... gee our troop
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 24, 2012
      The 18yos find Outdoor skills boring for the most part. The reaction I have had in Specific was, “so that is what boy lead meant.... gee our troop didn’t/doesn’t run that way, the adults run it....”

      From: Gregg Martell
      Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 9:10 PM
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS Trainings


      If your council has mandatory training
      requirements to be registered (our does), than
      yes. The Eagles transitioning to SMAs in our
      troop find the training to be really boring -
      they already know most of what the training covers.

      Gregg Martell





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bill Nelson
      Even for the Scout run troops, they have found good tips and tricks in Specifics [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 24, 2012
        Even for the Scout run troops, they have found good tips and tricks in Specifics

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • A. Dukovic
        Yes, if you have the mandatory training in your council, then as a direct contact Assistant Scoutmaster, the boy needs to be fully trained for the
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 24, 2012
          Yes, if you have the "mandatory training" in your council, then as a "direct contact" Assistant Scoutmaster, the boy needs to be "fully trained" for the position before he can be registered.  

          But that's why National created "Unit Scouter Reserve" folks, your 18+ year old youth can still participate in what ever roles you wish and they only need YPT to get registered and stay with your units.

          As the boy works thru college and settles down, then he/she can complete the "required" training for the "direct contact" positions like Assistant Scoutmaster, etc.

          Food for thought??   

          - Art

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Wildschuetz
          This was my biggest argument in regards to the requirement of OLS for young men who were basically told that they had to be trained outdoor skills, after doing
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 24, 2012
            This was my biggest argument in regards to the requirement of OLS for young men
            who were basically told that they had to be trained outdoor skills, after doing
            it for the last 7 years. When I posed that concern, I got the response that the
            real reason for the training was to teach the adults how to teach the skill. Of
            course, these 18 year-olds should already know how to do that, or I have not
            been doing my job right. It just rubs me the wrong way to tell an Eagle Scout,
            with 3 or 4 palms, over 150 nights of camping, in some cases former SPLs, and
            graduates of NYLT, that everything they've done in the last 7 years don't count
            - that they still have to take the training.
            David Wildschuetz
            Scoutmaster, Troop 310
            http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




            ________________________________
            From: Gregg Martell <gmartell@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, January 24, 2012 10:10:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
            Trainings


            If your council has mandatory training
            requirements to be registered (our does), than
            yes. The Eagles transitioning to SMAs in our
            troop find the training to be really boring -
            they already know most of what the training covers.

            Gregg Martell




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Corinna Jones
            David, You objection is very much valid. I wonder if there should be breakouts for the Eagle Scout/new ASMs, to introduce them to the changing role and
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
              David,
              You objection is very much valid. I wonder if there should be breakouts for
              the Eagle Scout/new ASMs, to introduce them to the changing role and
              responsibilities.
              Of course the new-to-scouting could also very much benefit from the young
              men's skills and experience, so during the instruction time they should
              help, instead of being students.
              If national listens to local scouters, and puts their head into it, I think
              they will be able to create an excellent training that benefits both sides.
              Corinna

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Wildschuetz
              Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:30 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
              Trainings

              This was my biggest argument in regards to the requirement of OLS for young
              men
              who were basically told that they had to be trained outdoor skills, after
              doing
              it for the last 7 years. When I posed that concern, I got the response that
              the
              real reason for the training was to teach the adults how to teach the skill.
              Of
              course, these 18 year-olds should already know how to do that, or I have not
              been doing my job right. It just rubs me the wrong way to tell an Eagle
              Scout,
              with 3 or 4 palms, over 150 nights of camping, in some cases former SPLs,
              and
              graduates of NYLT, that everything they've done in the last 7 years don't
              count
              - that they still have to take the training.
              David Wildschuetz
              Scoutmaster, Troop 310
              http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




              ________________________________
              From: Gregg Martell <gmartell@...>
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tue, January 24, 2012 10:10:10 PM
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
              Trainings


              If your council has mandatory training
              requirements to be registered (our does), than
              yes. The Eagles transitioning to SMAs in our
              troop find the training to be really boring -
              they already know most of what the training covers.

              Gregg Martell




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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            • G.J.
              I d use the youth Eagles for staffing the event. Heck I had a 16 yo Star Scout staff IOLS this past weekend. These guys and Venturing gals have to teach what
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                I'd use the youth Eagles for staffing the event. Heck I had a 16 yo Star Scout staff IOLS this past weekend. These guys and Venturing gals have to teach what they know to their younger or newer peers, so why not let them teach adults. Plus it really allows the new adults to understand the concept of "Train them, Trust them, LET THEM LEAD!" as William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt had said.

                I actually tried to recruit more youth members to teach, but with the short notice I gave them only one came through. best thind is that the participants liked working with him

                Now Youth Protection can be an issue, especially if you are using a female Venturer, so you do have to be mindful of that. I was fortunate in that the youth on staff was another staffer's son.

                I also say do the same thing with the 18-21yo scouters, heck really any scouter, who have "Been there, done that, have the t-shirt and patch," or as I jokingly put it, "been there, done that, now part of the problem" ;)

                I remember when I did the old SMF course, and was bored to tears with the outdoor portion. Only good thing was that I made some friends with my patrol, but really didn't learn anything new. Heck I've taught the material before.

                So another thing I did was get participants to rate their abilities in the various topics. My orignal plan was to review their applications and contact them a week in adavance, askign them to teach the module under the supervision of a staffer. Unfortunately that didn't happen, and some were asked that weekend to do a module.

                Best example I can give is the certified LNT Trainer taking IOLS and asking her to do the LNT module on Sunday.

                So use the resources you have.
              • G.J.
                Forgot to add, the best thing for the newly minted 18yo Scouter, or 21yo Venturing leader as the case may be, is some mentorship by an expereinced scouter.
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                  Forgot to add, the best thing for the newly minted 18yo Scouter, or 21yo Venturing leader as the case may be, is some mentorship by an expereinced scouter. That is where I learned the most about my new role. I knew how things were suppose to be done, could do all the skills, but making the tranistion from being an ASPL and Leadership Corps member to adult was very difficult in my case. I had to be taken aside a few times and talked to about the fact that I am no longer a youth.

                  Just as I have found it is very difficult for a Cub Scout leader to transition to being a Boy Scout Leader, so to is the transition from Boy Scout to Scouter, especially if the indidual is involved in Sea Scouts, OA, or Venturing where they are still a youth. They need your help.

                  (An aside, not knocking CS leaders as I am one myself. But I have found that someone who has been trained to take charge for a number of years via CS Leader training has a very difficult time adjusting to the Patrol Method of Boy Scouts. One of the troops in my neck of the woods constantly reminds their leaders that the proper response to a scout's questions, barring emergencies, is "have you asked your patrol leader?" :) And if a PL asks, the question is "have you asked your SPL?" ;) )
                • Thomas Roberts
                  We have had some 17-18 year olds take the course and show some ability at the scout skills.  When we asked them to help teach we have had mixed success.  If
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                    We have had some 17-18 year olds take the course and show some ability at the scout skills.  When we asked them to help teach we have had mixed success.  If the youth has not taken, or even better staffed, NYLT then the teaching and presentation skills may be lacking.  You will have to spend some extra time with these youth staffers to mkae sure then can do more than just read the text in front of the group.
                     
                    Tom Roberts
                    Hudson Valley Council BSA


                    ________________________________
                    From: G.J. <gjjudd@...>
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:28 AM
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS Trainings


                     
                    Forgot to add, the best thing for the newly minted 18yo Scouter, or 21yo Venturing leader as the case may be, is some mentorship by an expereinced scouter. That is where I learned the most about my new role. I knew how things were suppose to be done, could do all the skills, but making the tranistion from being an ASPL and Leadership Corps member to adult was very difficult in my case. I had to be taken aside a few times and talked to about the fact that I am no longer a youth.

                    Just as I have found it is very difficult for a Cub Scout leader to transition to being a Boy Scout Leader, so to is the transition from Boy Scout to Scouter, especially if the indidual is involved in Sea Scouts, OA, or Venturing where they are still a youth. They need your help.

                    (An aside, not knocking CS leaders as I am one myself. But I have found that someone who has been trained to take charge for a number of years via CS Leader training has a very difficult time adjusting to the Patrol Method of Boy Scouts. One of the troops in my neck of the woods constantly reminds their leaders that the proper response to a scout's questions, barring emergencies, is "have you asked your patrol leader?" :) And if a PL asks, the question is "have you asked your SPL?" ;) )




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • David Wildschuetz
                    And that is where the ASM/SM specific training should come in.  There is many things that change when you switch from youth to adult, and SM training should
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                      And that is where the ASM/SM specific training should come in.  There is many
                      things that change when you switch from youth to adult, and SM training should
                      be the tool for training.  However, the OLS training which really provides no
                      benefit to  the recently graduated Eagle Scout.  He should already know the
                      skills, and how to teach them.  And if he hasn't learned in the 7 years as a
                      Scout, he sure ain't going to learn it over a weekend just because he's 18.

                      David Wildschuetz
                      Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                      http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                      ________________________________
                      From: G.J. <gjjudd@...>
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 8:28:38 AM
                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                      Trainings

                       
                      Just as I have found it is very difficult for a Cub Scout leader to transition
                      to being a Boy Scout Leader, so to is the transition from Boy Scout to Scouter,
                      especially if the indidual is involved in Sea Scouts, OA, or Venturing where
                      they are still a youth. They need your help.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jon Baake
                      There is another option if the objective is to register the scout as an adult with your troop when he turns 18 but obtaining training is not practical because
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                        There is another option if the objective is to register the scout as an
                        adult with your troop when he turns 18 but obtaining training is not
                        practical because he is away at college, the military or elsewhere. That is
                        the Unit College Scouter Reserve.



                        In recent past, the only position you could use to register the 18 -21 year
                        olds was as an assistant leader, primarily as Assistant Scoutmasters in a
                        Troop. The National Council has made a new position for traditional Scouting
                        units. The position, Unit College Scouter Reserve, is available for units
                        with a minimum leader age requirement of 18. This position uses the same
                        application, fees and registration process, as any other adult volunteer,
                        including a criminal background check, but the only training requirement is
                        Youth Protection Training. Having completed YPT, which is a requirement to
                        register in my council, the scout (now a scouter) will be considered trained
                        as needed to fulfill local unit trained leader requirements.



                        As your unit recharters, consider the level of involvement of the 18 - 21
                        year olds in your unit to determine whether they should be moved from a
                        traditional leader position that requires leader specific training to a Unit
                        College Scouter Reserve (position code 92U for young adult leaders in Packs,
                        Troops, and Teams; 92V for young adult leaders in Venturing Crews).



                        If the young adult is away at college or for military members, deployed for
                        most of the scouting year, then UCSR is the appropriate registration until
                        they can complete training for their position and more fully participate and
                        serve the unit.



                        The UCSR codes are not currently available for selection when accomplishing
                        the recharter application via Internet Recharter. Register young adult
                        leaders in their current adult leader positions, but then make a pen-and-ink
                        change on the printed recharter application to denote either 92U or 92V so
                        they are registered as UCSR.



                        With credit and thanks to Mark Ellis, NCAC, who drafted much of this
                        response.



                        Jon Baake

                        NCAC







                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of David Wildschuetz
                        Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:31 AM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                        Trainings





                        This was my biggest argument in regards to the requirement of OLS for young
                        men
                        who were basically told that they had to be trained outdoor skills, after
                        doing
                        it for the last 7 years. When I posed that concern, I got the response that
                        the
                        real reason for the training was to teach the adults how to teach the skill.
                        Of
                        course, these 18 year-olds should already know how to do that, or I have not

                        been doing my job right. It just rubs me the wrong way to tell an Eagle
                        Scout,
                        with 3 or 4 palms, over 150 nights of camping, in some cases former SPLs,
                        and
                        graduates of NYLT, that everything they've done in the last 7 years don't
                        count
                        - that they still have to take the training.
                        David Wildschuetz
                        Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                        http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com

                        ________________________________
                        From: Gregg Martell <gmartell@... <mailto:gmartell%40pobox.com> >
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tue, January 24, 2012 10:10:10 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                        Trainings

                        If your council has mandatory training
                        requirements to be registered (our does), than
                        yes. The Eagles transitioning to SMAs in our
                        troop find the training to be really boring -
                        they already know most of what the training covers.

                        Gregg Martell

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Charles Hawes
                        There isn t any reason why an 18 year old cannot take SALT - however, I would be cautious about allowing 17 year old take the training. How do you tell a young
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                          There isn't any reason why an 18 year old cannot take SALT - however, I would be cautious about allowing 17 year old take the training. How do you tell a young 17 -VS- old 17 not yet you are not ready? If we stay with 18yr old - we can avoid some hurt feelings and keep the scout looking forward to training. Much of the information in SALT training covers behavioral situations that many 17 year olds might not be equipped to handle. Just my opinion...

                          YIS(yours in scouting)
                          Charlie Hawes
                          SWTR - Training Chair
                          (863)398-7194

                          On Jan 25, 2012, at 10:09 AM, Thomas Roberts <minisinkbuffalo@...> wrote:

                          > We have had some 17-18 year olds take the course and show some ability at the scout skills. When we asked them to help teach we have had mixed success. If the youth has not taken, or even better staffed, NYLT then the teaching and presentation skills may be lacking. You will have to spend some extra time with these youth staffers to mkae sure then can do more than just read the text in front of the group.
                          >
                          > Tom Roberts
                          > Hudson Valley Council BSA
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: G.J. <gjjudd@...>
                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 9:28 AM
                          > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS Trainings
                          >
                          >
                          > Forgot to add, the best thing for the newly minted 18yo Scouter, or 21yo Venturing leader as the case may be, is some mentorship by an expereinced scouter. That is where I learned the most about my new role. I knew how things were suppose to be done, could do all the skills, but making the tranistion from being an ASPL and Leadership Corps member to adult was very difficult in my case. I had to be taken aside a few times and talked to about the fact that I am no longer a youth.
                          >
                          > Just as I have found it is very difficult for a Cub Scout leader to transition to being a Boy Scout Leader, so to is the transition from Boy Scout to Scouter, especially if the indidual is involved in Sea Scouts, OA, or Venturing where they are still a youth. They need your help.
                          >
                          > (An aside, not knocking CS leaders as I am one myself. But I have found that someone who has been trained to take charge for a number of years via CS Leader training has a very difficult time adjusting to the Patrol Method of Boy Scouts. One of the troops in my neck of the woods constantly reminds their leaders that the proper response to a scout's questions, barring emergencies, is "have you asked your patrol leader?" :) And if a PL asks, the question is "have you asked your SPL?" ;) )
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • David Wildschuetz
                          I am aware of that option, and we did use it on one Scout last year.  However we were told that this is a one-year pass, and that the Scout needed to take the
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                            I am aware of that option, and we did use it on one Scout last year.  However we
                            were told that this is a one-year pass, and that the Scout needed to take the
                            training before we chartered again this past December. 


                            When time came again this year, the person training on the process stated we
                            could still register him as a Scouter Reserve.  But just yesterday I received a
                            notification that he will be dropped for lack of SM/ASM and OLS training.  I
                            have a call into my district exec, and am awaiting clarification.

                            In any case, we have Scouts that are attending college locally and still
                            participate as their schedule allows.  To use the UCSR code on them would be
                            violating the spirit of the code.  They are still interracing with the troop, so
                            technically they should have the training in order to do so.
                             David Wildschuetz
                            Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                            http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                            ________________________________
                            From: Jon Baake <jbaake@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 10:22:39 AM
                            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                            Trainings

                             
                            There is another option if the objective is to register the scout as an
                            adult with your troop when he turns 18 but obtaining training is not
                            practical because he is away at college, the military or elsewhere. That is
                            the Unit College Scouter Reserve.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Connie Knie
                            Just a couple of observations. I know that there was alot of discussion as to the purpose of IOLS and I couldn t find anywhere where it says the purpose of
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                              Just a couple of observations. I know that there was alot of discussion as to the purpose of IOLS and I couldn't find anywhere where it says the purpose of that course is indeed to make sure that leaders could teach the skills. This course is to make sure that leaders were comfortable doing the skills so that they could teach them.........but not to learn the teaching techniques.
                               
                              Also your assupmtion is that all units are as thorough as yours as teaching their older scouts to teach skills. Shoot there are some troops out there that don't even allow scouts to teach! Just becasue a scout has been in the program for 7 years means not much to me. I know SMs who have been in the program for 20 years and they will never get it..........

                              Connie

                              --- On Wed, 1/25/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:


                              This was my biggest argument in regards to the requirement of OLS for young men
                              who were basically told that they had to be trained outdoor skills, after doing
                              it for the last 7 years.  When I posed that concern, I got the response that the
                              real reason for the training was to teach the adults how to teach the skill.  Of
                              course, these 18 year-olds should already know how to do that, or I have not
                              been doing my job right.  It just rubs me the wrong way to tell an Eagle Scout,
                              with 3 or 4 palms, over 150 nights of camping, in some cases former SPLs, and
                              graduates of NYLT, that everything they've done in the last 7 years don't count
                              - that they still have to take the training.


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Connie Knie
                              Hi David, The college reserve position is for scouts ages 18-21 so they could hold there for three years if they need to...... Connie ... I am aware of that
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                Hi David,
                                The college reserve position is for scouts ages 18-21 so they could hold there for three years if they need to......

                                Connie

                                --- On Wed, 1/25/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote


                                I am aware of that option, and we did use it on one Scout last year.  However we
                                were told that this is a one-year pass, and that the Scout needed to take the
                                training before we chartered again this past December. 




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Jon Baake
                                Who ever told you the unit college scouter reserve was a one-year pass was misinformed. I have not been able to find an upper limit on age for the position but
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                  Who ever told you the unit college scouter reserve was a one-year pass was
                                  misinformed. I have not been able to find an upper limit on age for the
                                  position but it is a valid position in which 18-21 scouters may register.
                                  Unless you have local requirements more stringent than national
                                  requirements, a scouter registered in the UCSR should not be dropped for
                                  lacking any training other than YPT.



                                  Jon Baake



                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of David Wildschuetz
                                  Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:25 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                  Trainings





                                  I am aware of that option, and we did use it on one Scout last year.
                                  However we
                                  were told that this is a one-year pass, and that the Scout needed to take
                                  the
                                  training before we chartered again this past December.

                                  When time came again this year, the person training on the process stated we

                                  could still register him as a Scouter Reserve. But just yesterday I
                                  received a
                                  notification that he will be dropped for lack of SM/ASM and OLS training. I

                                  have a call into my district exec, and am awaiting clarification.




                                  _,_._,___



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Teresa Hall
                                  I didn t know there was a age limit at all, I guess I ll find out for sure when my charter is processed, as I used the designation for one of our Eagles who is
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                    I didn't know there was a age limit at all, I guess I'll find out for sure
                                    when my charter is processed, as I used the designation for one of our
                                    Eagles who is 22 but active duty Navy.

                                    Teresa Hall



                                    On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 1:20 PM, Jon Baake <jbaake@...> wrote:

                                    > Who ever told you the unit college scouter reserve was a one-year pass was
                                    > misinformed. I have not been able to find an upper limit on age for the
                                    > position but it is a valid position in which 18-21 scouters may register.
                                    > Unless you have local requirements more stringent than national
                                    > requirements, a scouter registered in the UCSR should not be dropped for
                                    > lacking any training other than YPT.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jon Baake
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                                    > Behalf
                                    > Of David Wildschuetz
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 12:25 PM
                                    > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                    > Trainings
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I am aware of that option, and we did use it on one Scout last year.
                                    > However we
                                    > were told that this is a one-year pass, and that the Scout needed to take
                                    > the
                                    > training before we chartered again this past December.
                                    >
                                    > When time came again this year, the person training on the process stated
                                    > we
                                    >
                                    > could still register him as a Scouter Reserve. But just yesterday I
                                    > received a
                                    > notification that he will be dropped for lack of SM/ASM and OLS training.
                                    > I
                                    >
                                    > have a call into my district exec, and am awaiting clarification.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > _,_._,___
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                    > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • David Wildschuetz
                                    Just got back from the council office, and may I say I just had an eye-opening experience. One reason for the trip was to inquire about some issues on
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                      Just got back from the council office, and may I say I just had an eye-opening
                                      experience.

                                      One reason for the trip was to inquire about some issues on our charter we
                                      turned in last month.  About a dozen leaders were flagged as not being trained
                                      and would be dropped unless they complete the training by next week.  While a
                                      few were leaders that we've been trying to get this done on since early last
                                      year, most of these were new leaders (parents that crossed over with their 2nd
                                      yr Webes and joined the troop effective 1/1/12). 


                                      In the past, we've signed parents up with a position and told them they needed
                                      to be trained by year's end, as we've been told that you can not recharter
                                      without being trained for your position.  Well, for the last couple of years,
                                      we've only been adding them as MCs.  Our only SAs have been 18 year olds that
                                      took the training down at camp.

                                      When I inquired why these new leaders were being dropped, I was told it was
                                      because they were not fully trained as MC.  I mentioned that in the past we were
                                      told they could sign up, but had to complete training or would not be able to
                                      recharter at the end of the year.  Apparently that was never the case.  In
                                      order to sign up as a MC, SA, SM or whatever, you have to be fully trained
                                      before hand.  Since this was the first year that MCs had to be trained, we
                                      didn't find out this rule until now.  Either the explanation was lost on me at
                                      Roundtable, or it was never explained at all (and I checked another leader from
                                      my troop who attends RT almost as religiously as I - he never heard it this way
                                      either). 


                                      So, in order to sign up as a comittee member, assistant scoutmaster or
                                      scoutmaster you will need to take the training first.  While an existing
                                      troop/pack/crew should still be able to function for the most part, it seems
                                      that this will definatly slow down the creation of new units unless you're going
                                      to pull adults out of an existing unit to fill the positions.

                                       David Wildschuetz
                                      Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                      http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 11:34:00 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                      Trainings

                                       
                                      Hi David,
                                      The college reserve position is for scouts ages 18-21 so they could hold there
                                      for three years if they need to......

                                      Connie

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Wildschuetz
                                      Based on what I found out during my trip to the council office over lunch, there is no age limit - at least at our council.    David Wildschuetz
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                        Based on what I found out during my trip to the council office over lunch, there
                                        is no age limit - at least at our council.  
                                         David Wildschuetz
                                        Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                        http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Teresa Hall <WarEagle78@...>
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 1:39:32 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                        Trainings

                                         
                                        I didn't know there was a age limit at all, I guess I'll find out for sure
                                        when my charter is processed, as I used the designation for one of our
                                        Eagles who is 22 but active duty Navy.

                                        Teresa Hall


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Corinna Jones
                                        An age limit really wouldn t make a lot of sense since, for example, my oldest son enlisted in the Army and his active duty term is 5 years. He is 22 and
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                          An age limit really wouldn't make a lot of sense since, for example, my
                                          oldest son enlisted in the Army and his active duty term is 5 years. He is
                                          22 and trained, but it could happen if a young adult went to college and
                                          then decided to enlist, or being away for more than 4 years, like my younger
                                          son who is considering ROTC.
                                          Corinna

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: David Wildschuetz
                                          Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 3:27 PM
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                          Trainings

                                          Based on what I found out during my trip to the council office over lunch,
                                          there
                                          is no age limit - at least at our council.
                                          David Wildschuetz
                                          Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                          http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Teresa Hall <WarEagle78@...>
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 1:39:32 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                          Trainings


                                          I didn't know there was a age limit at all, I guess I'll find out for sure
                                          when my charter is processed, as I used the designation for one of our
                                          Eagles who is 22 but active duty Navy.

                                          Teresa Hall


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                          ------------------------------------

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                                        • Connie Knie
                                          I guess I would disagree. If for some reason a young man or woman could not get trained in a timely manner then what is the big deal about dropping them from
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                            I guess I would disagree. If for some reason a young man or woman could not get trained in a timely manner then what is the big deal about dropping them from the charter after three years and then when they come back just fill out a new application. The College Reserve is just to help scouts who while it might not happen right away they see themselves getting trained in a couple of years.......

                                            Connie

                                            --- On Wed, 1/25/12, Corinna Jones <corinnajones@...> wrote:

                                            An age limit really wouldn't make a lot of sense since, for example, my
                                            oldest son enlisted in the Army and his active duty term is 5 years. He is
                                            22 and trained, but it could happen if a young adult went to college and
                                            then decided to enlist, or being away for more than 4 years, like my younger
                                            son who is considering ROTC.
                                            Corinna



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Connie Knie
                                            David, I would submit that this is a council rule. Not true here......... National hasn t even put out a drop dead date for committee members to be
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                              David,
                                              I would submit that this is a council rule. Not true here......... National hasn't even put out a drop dead date for committee members to be trained..........
                                               
                                              If your council is one of the pilot councils for getting leaders 100% trained I can see why you hit this snag. I can tell you it does not exist here...

                                              Connie

                                              --- On Wed, 1/25/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:



                                              When I inquired why these new leaders were being dropped, I was told it was
                                              because they were not fully trained as MC.  I mentioned that in the past we were
                                              told they could sign up, but had to complete training or would not be able to
                                              recharter at the end of the year.  Apparently that was never the case.  In
                                              order to sign up as a MC, SA, SM or whatever, you have to be fully trained
                                              before hand.  Since this was the first year that MCs had to be trained, we
                                              didn't find out this rule until now.  Either the explanation was lost on me at
                                              Roundtable, or it was never explained at all (and I checked another leader from
                                              my troop who attends RT almost as religiously as I - he never heard it this way
                                              either). 



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Teresa Hall
                                              To me I see the benefit in allowing the young adult to maintain his formal connection with both the BSA and with his troop. If they maintain their
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                To me I see the benefit in allowing the young adult to maintain his formal
                                                connection with both the BSA and with his troop. If they maintain their
                                                registration the BSA is in touch with them monthly (Scouting Magazine) and
                                                the unit at least annually until they are out of college or out of the
                                                military. Helping them feel a continued connection is good for the BSA
                                                and the unit in the long run, IMHO, and worth it without making them take
                                                training that is meaningless to them at that point in their lives. Now I do
                                                NOT see it as a "free pass" once they are out of college or out of the
                                                military.

                                                Teresa


                                                On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>wrote:

                                                > I guess I would disagree. If for some reason a young man or woman could
                                                > not get trained in a timely manner then what is the big deal about dropping
                                                > them from the charter after three years and then when they come back just
                                                > fill out a new application. The College Reserve is just to help scouts who
                                                > while it might not happen right away they see themselves getting trained in
                                                > a couple of years.......
                                                >
                                                > Connie
                                                >
                                                > --- On Wed, 1/25/12, Corinna Jones <corinnajones@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > An age limit really wouldn't make a lot of sense since, for example, my
                                                > oldest son enlisted in the Army and his active duty term is 5 years. He is
                                                > 22 and trained, but it could happen if a young adult went to college and
                                                > then decided to enlist, or being away for more than 4 years, like my
                                                > younger
                                                > son who is considering ROTC.
                                                > Corinna
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ------------------------------------
                                                >
                                                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • David Wildschuetz
                                                That is correct, it is a council rule.  I probably mentioned something along those lines in an earlier post and didn t include it in this one.  I m a
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                  That is correct, it is a council rule.  I probably mentioned something along
                                                  those lines in an earlier post and didn't include it in this one.  I'm a little
                                                  flustered with my *education* today, so I'm not sure which end is up right
                                                  now.  

                                                  We are not, or so I've been told, one of the pilot councils, but instead just a
                                                  council that decided to go this route regardless of what national decides.
                                                   David Wildschuetz
                                                  Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                                  http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                                  ________________________________
                                                  From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 3:58:48 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                                  Trainings

                                                   
                                                  David,
                                                  I would submit that this is a council rule. Not true here......... National
                                                  hasn't even put out a drop dead date for committee members to be
                                                  trained..........

                                                   
                                                  If your council is one of the pilot councils for getting leaders 100% trained I
                                                  can see why you hit this snag. I can tell you it does not exist here...

                                                  Connie


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Connie Knie
                                                  While I believe that mandatory training is the way to go. I sympathize that you were given absolutely no heads up. And speaking as a UC this would be a
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                    While I believe that mandatory training is the way to go. I sympathize that you were given absolutely no heads up. And speaking as a UC this would be a nightmare. It was hard enough when they sprang the YP training on us and I even knew it ahead of time........ Someone really dropped the ball on this one. If your council operates the way I have seen alot of them, if there is enough hew and cry they might ease up............good luck

                                                    Connie

                                                    --- On Wed, 1/25/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:




                                                    We are not, or so I've been told, one of the pilot councils, but instead just a
                                                    council that decided to go this route regardless of what national decides.
                                                     David Wildschuetz
                                                    Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                                    http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • A. Dukovic
                                                    Folks, it all goes along with the every Scout deserves a trained leader concept; ALL the required training for committee members is available on-line too
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                      Folks, it all goes along with the "every Scout deserves a trained leader" concept; ALL the "required" training for committee members is available on-line too folks, so where's the problem??
                                                      As a side note, National discovered that "youth retention" actually went up in councils that currently have "mandatory training" so the youth themselves apparently do appreciate a "trained" leader who actually knows what they're doing!!

                                                      - Art

                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • David Wildschuetz
                                                      It s really hard to say where things went awry. I won t deny that there is possibly some fault on my part. I don t know what that is, but I can t rule it
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                        It's really hard to say where things went awry. I won't deny that there is
                                                        possibly some fault on my part. I don't know what that is, but I can't rule it
                                                        out.

                                                        The one thing I got to thinking about in regards to mandatory training for the
                                                        adult before gaining the position, is that unless you are going to pull trained
                                                        leaders out of another unit to start things out, creating new units is going to
                                                        be considerably more difficult than before. You have to train at least 4 adults
                                                        - (3 committee members, 1 SM if memory serves me correctly) - before you can
                                                        even charter the organization. The committee would be fairly easy, but with OLS
                                                        only being taught on a limited basis, getting a SM trained could take a while.
                                                        The only remedy is to find a trained adult in another unit to take the job.
                                                        David Wildschuetz
                                                        Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                                        http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com




                                                        ________________________________
                                                        From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 5:36:36 PM
                                                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                                        Trainings


                                                        While I believe that mandatory training is the way to go. I sympathize that you
                                                        were given absolutely no heads up. And speaking as a UC this would be a
                                                        nightmare. It was hard enough when they sprang the YP training on us and I even
                                                        knew it ahead of time........ Someone really dropped the ball on this one. If
                                                        your council operates the way I have seen alot of them, if there is enough hew
                                                        and cry they might ease up............good luck

                                                        Connie




                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • G.J.
                                                        David, SM/ASM Specific, while it does cover the role of adults,it does not break new leaders into the new roles they are now in. Someone has to be there to
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jan 25, 2012
                                                          David,

                                                          SM/ASM Specific, while it does cover the role of adults,it does not break new leaders into the new roles they are now in. Someone has to be there to remind them of there new role.

                                                          Just as I have found it takes 12-18 months for CS leaders to stop treating the Boy Scouts like Cubs, same thing with Scouts and Venturers moving into adult roles. Someone needs to be there to remind them that they are no longer youth.

                                                          I know I had problems adjusting to the adults role. And I've seen others have problems.

                                                          In regards to having someone completely trained prior to becoming a leader, that is crazy. YPT can easily be done since it is online.

                                                          But SM/ASM Specific, Venturing Leader Specific, and IOLS are classroom / outdoor trainings that are not available all the time.

                                                          And don't get me started about Sea Scout Adult Leader Basic Training. It is not even mentioned on the "What makes A Trained Leader" flyer national has on it's website, and I know in my council it has never been done.

                                                          I think a friendly cup of coffee with the DE and maybe a few others about how can they create new units with this policy, may change their minds on it.

                                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > And that is where the ASM/SM specific training should come in.  There is many
                                                          > things that change when you switch from youth to adult, and SM training should
                                                          > be the tool for training.  However, the OLS training which really provides no
                                                          > benefit to  the recently graduated Eagle Scout.  He should already know the
                                                          > skills, and how to teach them.  And if he hasn't learned in the 7 years as a
                                                          > Scout, he sure ain't going to learn it over a weekend just because he's 18.
                                                          >
                                                          > David Wildschuetz
                                                          > Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                                          > http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ________________________________
                                                          > From: G.J. <gjjudd@...>
                                                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Sent: Wed, January 25, 2012 8:28:38 AM
                                                          > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: 17 y.o. Eagle Scouts in SM/ASM Specifics and ItOLS
                                                          > Trainings
                                                          >
                                                          >  
                                                          > Just as I have found it is very difficult for a Cub Scout leader to transition
                                                          > to being a Boy Scout Leader, so to is the transition from Boy Scout to Scouter,
                                                          > especially if the indidual is involved in Sea Scouts, OA, or Venturing where
                                                          > they are still a youth. They need your help.
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                        • Connie Knie
                                                          Truer words never spoken. And especially what with the HUGE emphasis on new unit creation and generating increases in membership (I mean the whole state of MI
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jan 26, 2012
                                                            Truer words never spoken. And especially what with the HUGE emphasis on new unit creation and generating increases in membership (I mean the whole state of MI is becoming one council as the newest strategy in getting better membership and retention) why would any council put this kind of road block up?
                                                             
                                                            Like I said before, well intentioned as this may be, it is not well thought through at all. And while I am sure that in your heads right now "so what else is new?" is shouting, it seems that with some reasonable conversation this could be recinded pretty quickly....... and if that fails it will probably happen when enough leaders are up in arms and storming the office with torches and pitch forks......LOL

                                                            Connie

                                                            --- On Wed, 1/25/12, David Wildschuetz <shamanlsn@...> wrote:

                                                            It's really hard to say where things went awry.  I won't deny that there is
                                                            possibly some fault on my part.  I don't know what that is, but I can't rule it
                                                            out.

                                                            The one thing I got to thinking about in regards to mandatory training for the
                                                            adult before gaining the position, is that unless you are going to pull trained
                                                            leaders out of another unit to start things out, creating new units is going to
                                                            be considerably more difficult than before.  You have to train at least 4 adults
                                                            - (3 committee members, 1 SM if memory serves me correctly) - before you can
                                                            even charter the organization.  The committee would be fairly easy, but with OLS
                                                            only being taught on a limited basis, getting a SM trained could take a while.
                                                            The only remedy is to find a trained adult in another unit to take the job.
                                                            David Wildschuetz
                                                            Scoutmaster, Troop 310
                                                            http://bstroop1310.scoutlander.com






                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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