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Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders

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  • Herb
    Our council added a requirement. Must have one for overnight trips herb d
    Message 1 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
      Our council added a requirement. Must have one for overnight trips
      herb d

      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, patrick dulzo <pdulzo@...> wrote:
      >
      > Where are you going that you would need a tour plan?  With the new requirements Webelos should almost never need to fill one out.  Here are the requirements right from the BSA page.
      > * Trips of 500 miles or more; or
      > * Trips outside of council borders [Exception: not to your council-owned property]; or
      > * Trips to any national high-adventure base, national Scout
      > jamboree, National Order of the Arrow Conference, the Sumitt Bechtel
      > Reserve, or regionally sponsored event ; or
      > *
      >
      > * When conducting the following activities outside of council or district events: 
      > * Aquatics activities (swimming, boating, floating, scuba, etc.) 
      > * Climbing and rappelling 
      > * Orientation flights (process flying plan) 
      > * Shooting sports 
      > * Any activities involving motorized vehicles as part of the program (snowmobiles, boating, etc.) 
      >
      > We also have our webelos stay over at our camporee's.  It is very easily classified as a webelos overnight because they are spending time with the troops as a recruitment tool and they follow along with the troop and take part in the program within the Guide to Safe Scouting Guidelines.
      >
      >  
      > If it is required that you need a tour plan, I would suggest talking to the program director at the CAC council office and have him wiegh in on it.
      >
      > So technically, if they are attending a camporee within the council's borders, you do not need a tour plan/permit.  It is recommended to do one anyway just in case, but not required.
      >
      >
      > Patrick Dulzo
      > 815-970-2751 cell
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Herb <hadulzo@...>
      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 2:16 PM
      > Subject: [Scouter_T] Baloo For Webelos leaders
      >
      >
      >  
      > I always assumed the tour plan/permit required Baloo training to camp. However, if you look at the tour plan it says Baloo is required for pack overnighter. I am the OA camp promotion advisor. Already paid my dues as a Webelos leader, and when I was a leader though not required I took WLOT. That program however tends to focus on advancement and not the stuff covered in Baloo.
      >
      > On page 21 of Baloo it says "A Webelos Leader who has completed cub Scout Basic Leader training and WLOT is trained to take his/her den camping as a den."
      >
      > Then on the same page it also says Webelos Scouts are not authorized to attend camporees overnight. I thought there is something else about this where if the Webelos have a separate program they can attend a camporee. We used to run our Webelos woods at the camporee.
      >
      > Herb d
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Herb
      I think my question got muddy because of the tour plan. My point was that the tour plan requires outdoor training for cub camping but technically does not
      Message 2 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
        I think my question got muddy because of the tour plan. My point was that the tour plan requires outdoor training for cub camping but "technically" does not require a leader to have outdoor training to take a webelos den camping.
        h

        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "A. Dukovic" <artdukovic@...> wrote:
        >
        > These are all "points" to consider folks and yes, Venturing, Cub or Boy Scouts, ALWAYS doing a "tour permit" is the very best idea just in case, but know please that neither Council's nor National has access to any person's "criminal history", by law, and this includes serious traffic violations or pending "criminal" charges; nobody's going to catch a suspended/revoked license or broken seat belts??
        >  
        > Some of this does get into the "public" record, but NOT all folks, so as Scouters, we're all forced to take a person's word as to if they have a good license or anything "pending" when we complete these forms; my council, as most will do, "files" them, but nobody's doing "background" checks on these, sorry to report.
        >  
        > It's easy to get caught-up in any "domestic" situation, just don't take "abuse" for something outside our "volunteer" scope of responsibility please; remind your parents that this is still Scouting, not the CIA, and the first point of the Scout law is "trustworthy" and if it's going to mean anything, we need to honor it as much as we can.  If the wife was so worried, she should have presented her "concerns" directly to the committee; "trustworthy" works both ways I'm afraid, and probably none of us are mind-readers I'm thinking??
        >
        > - Art
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Bill Nelson
        Same for a Scoutmaster, technically outdoor training is not required. Bill From: Herb Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 6:27 PM To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
          Same for a Scoutmaster, technically outdoor training is not required.

          Bill

          From: Herb
          Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 6:27 PM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders


          I think my question got muddy because of the tour plan. My point was that the tour plan requires outdoor training for cub camping but "technically" does not require a leader to have outdoor training to take a webelos den camping.
          h

          --- In mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com, "A. Dukovic" <artdukovic@...> wrote:
          >
          > These are all "points" to consider folks and yes, Venturing, Cub or Boy Scouts, ALWAYS doing a "tour permit" is the very best idea just in case, but know please that neither Council's nor National has access to any person's "criminal history", by law, and this includes serious traffic violations or pending "criminal" charges; nobody's going to catch a suspended/revoked license or broken seat belts??
          >
          > Some of this does get into the "public" record, but NOT all folks, so as Scouters, we're all forced to take a person's word as to if they have a good license or anything "pending" when we complete these forms; my council, as most will do, "files" them, but nobody's doing "background" checks on these, sorry to report.
          >
          > It's easy to get caught-up in any "domestic" situation, just don't take "abuse" for something outside our "volunteer" scope of responsibility please; remind your parents that this is still Scouting, not the CIA, and the first point of the Scout law is "trustworthy" and if it's going to mean anything, we need to honor it as much as we can. If the wife was so worried, she should have presented her "concerns" directly to the committee; "trustworthy" works both ways I'm afraid, and probably none of us are mind-readers I'm thinking??
          >
          > - Art
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • A. Dukovic
          Ok, this is Scouter T correct??  Why would any committee allow any untrained adult to take any youth anywhere fellas??      And yes, IOLS IS REQUIRED
          Message 4 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
            Ok, this is "Scouter T" correct??  Why would any committee allow any "untrained" adult to take any youth anywhere fellas??   
             
            And yes, IOLS IS REQUIRED for SMs abd ASMs but not for committee members and should give a very basic idea of what they should be doing; food for thought??

            Maybe National's idea here with changing from tour "permit" to "plan" is to get away from any implied "approval" process; they don't own any units and each committee has the responsibility to "approve" what its leaders do, and again, making sure they're "trained" as well??  National's job is to "guide" the program, not run it maybe??


            - Art

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bill Nelson
            IOLS is not mandatory yet except in some councils and even there, it is not required for the tour permit. You can take a troop camping without it. Bill From:
            Message 5 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
              IOLS is not mandatory yet except in some councils and even there, it is not required for the tour permit. You can take a troop camping without it.

              Bill

              From: A. Dukovic
              Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:22 PM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders


              Ok, this is "Scouter T" correct?? Why would any committee allow any "untrained" adult to take any youth anywhere fellas??

              And yes, IOLS IS REQUIRED for SMs abd ASMs but not for committee members and should give a very basic idea of what they should be doing; food for thought??

              Maybe National's idea here with changing from tour "permit" to "plan" is to get away from any implied "approval" process; they don't own any units and each committee has the responsibility to "approve" what its leaders do, and again, making sure they're "trained" as well?? National's job is to "guide" the program, not run it maybe??

              - Art





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • A. Dukovic
              Again Bill, why would you send a Troop (and youth) camping without a trained leader and IOLS is required to wear the trained strip correct??   Looking at
              Message 6 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                Again Bill, why would you send a Troop (and youth) camping without a "trained" leader and IOLS is required to wear the "trained" strip correct??
                 
                Looking at common sense here and without it, you're just asking for trouble like the guy out East who got "lost" with two Scouts I'm thinkin??


                - Art

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bill Nelson
                I wouldn’t just saying what the rules are and are not. IOLS is required to wear the trained strip if you are a SM or ASM, not if you are on the troop
                Message 7 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                  I wouldn’t just saying what the rules are and are not.

                  IOLS is required to wear the trained strip if you are a SM or ASM, not if you are on the troop committee. And 2 troop committee members can take a troop out.

                  Tour permit and Tour Plan simply don’t require IOLS. Many leaders would tell you IOLS doesn’t really teach them how to safely take a troop out. But I guess that is another topic.....

                  Bill

                  From: A. Dukovic
                  Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:33 PM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders


                  Again Bill, why would you send a Troop (and youth) camping without a "trained" leader and IOLS is required to wear the "trained" strip correct??

                  Looking at common sense here and without it, you're just asking for trouble like the guy out East who got "lost" with two Scouts I'm thinkin??

                  - Art





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Teresa Hall
                  Sorry. IOLS is required for a Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster to be fully trained, but training beyond YPT is currently not mandatory in the BSA. The only
                  Message 8 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                    Sorry. IOLS is required for a Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster to be
                    fully trained, but training beyond YPT is currently not mandatory in the
                    BSA. The only campout in the BSA that requires a leader with training
                    beyond YPT is, to the best of my knowledge, still pack campouts and BALOO.
                    Specific activities require other specific training, sure, but for a
                    regular campout, no.

                    And are you assuming that the committee is trained?

                    Personally I agree with you when you ask "Why would any committee allow any
                    "untrained" adult to take any youth anywhere" but the BSA does not mandate
                    that in any publication I have seen. (I would love for someone to prove me
                    wrong, and perhaps someday...)

                    Teresa Hall
                    Vulcan Disrict Cub Scout Training Chair
                    etc
                    Greater AL Council


                    On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 9:22 PM, A. Dukovic <artdukovic@...> wrote:

                    > Ok, this is "Scouter T" correct?? Why would any committee allow any
                    > "untrained" adult to take any youth anywhere fellas??
                    >
                    > And yes, IOLS IS REQUIRED for SMs abd ASMs but not for committee members
                    > and should give a very basic idea of what they should be doing; food for
                    > thought??
                    >
                    > Maybe National's idea here with changing from tour "permit" to "plan" is
                    > to get away from any implied "approval" process; they don't own any units
                    > and each committee has the responsibility to "approve" what its leaders do,
                    > and again, making sure they're "trained" as well?? National's job is to
                    > "guide" the program, not run it maybe??
                    >
                    >
                    > - Art
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                    > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • A. Dukovic
                    I understand Bill, but no Troop committee I know, would ever consider allowing any campout without a least one trained leader present and a few trained
                    Message 9 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                      I understand Bill, but no Troop committee I know, would ever consider allowing any campout without a least one "trained" leader present and a few "trained" committee members on board as well; "be prepared" for the worse possible is just common sense??
                       
                      Just because we're "volunteers" doesn't mean we can't be sued; when we've been placed in a position of responsibility over youth, we've got an obligation and "civil liability" to do it right, or at least make a "effort" to.  Without following the rules, written or implied, National is NOT gonna back us, and I never want to be in that situation myself; food for thought??

                      - Art

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • A. Dukovic
                      Good points but remember National doesn t OWN any Units do they?? - Art [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                        Good points but remember National doesn't "OWN" any Units do they??



                        - Art

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Corinna Jones
                        Art, I would much rather send our equipment manager to camp with the troop (if my husband the trained SM can t make it) than the 50-year veteran who has taken
                        Message 11 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                          Art,
                          I would much rather send our equipment manager to camp with the troop (if my
                          husband the trained SM can't make it) than the 50-year veteran who has taken
                          all the trainings available. While he didn't have a chance to take IOLS (he
                          is very busy, since he is also a CM - this is no excuse but a reality). He
                          is a former Boy Scout, outdoor enthusiast, and very proficient in all the
                          skills. A weekend course can hardly replace years of outdoor experience, and
                          the skill to work with boys.
                          While I am all for training, it doesn't automatically turn any adult into a
                          capable leader.
                          Corinna

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: A. Dukovic
                          Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 10:33 PM
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders

                          Again Bill, why would you send a Troop (and youth) camping without a
                          "trained" leader and IOLS is required to wear the "trained" strip correct??

                          Looking at common sense here and without it, you're just asking for trouble
                          like the guy out East who got "lost" with two Scouts I'm thinkin??


                          - Art

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          ------------------------------------

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                          scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

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                        • Bill Nelson
                          And usually a unit doesn’t own itself either. A troop is the youth program arm of some chartering organization like a Church and usually a Church doesn’t
                          Message 12 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                            And usually a unit doesn’t own itself either. A troop is the youth program arm of some chartering organization like a Church and usually a Church doesn’t have any outdoor training requirements.



                            From: A. Dukovic
                            Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:05 PM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders


                            Good points but remember National doesn't "OWN" any Units do they??

                            - Art

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bill Nelson
                            Art, I know a LOT of committees that would allow troops to go camping with parents in the troop who have no training at all except YPT and it is only recently
                            Message 13 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                              Art, I know a LOT of committees that would allow troops to go camping with parents in the troop who have no training at all except YPT and it is only recently that they have even thought about YPT.

                              Art, you need to ask yourself what does IOLS teach that will help you follow BSA rules and teach a leader to camp safely with 20-35 Jr. High School boys? Look at the syllabus (not what you think it should teach.)

                              Bill

                              From: A. Dukovic
                              Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:03 PM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders


                              I understand Bill, but no Troop committee I know, would ever consider allowing any campout without a least one "trained" leader present and a few "trained" committee members on board as well; "be prepared" for the worse possible is just common sense??

                              Just because we're "volunteers" doesn't mean we can't be sued; when we've been placed in a position of responsibility over youth, we've got an obligation and "civil liability" to do it right, or at least make a "effort" to. Without following the rules, written or implied, National is NOT gonna back us, and I never want to be in that situation myself; food for thought??

                              - Art

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • A. Dukovic
                              Ok I understand your point now; yes Ma am, training without experience can be useless, but that s where your committee needs to make a decision on yes or
                              Message 14 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                                Ok I understand your point now; yes Ma'am, "training" without experience can be useless, but that's where your committee needs to make a decision on yes or no for the campout; the "old guy" with all the "training" may not have what's needed (common sense??) to insure the safety of the youth, and again, that's a committee decision, as they work for the IH that actually "owns" the unit.  
                                 
                                As "volunteers" none of us ever want to say "no", it's sometimes necessary to do what's right??


                                - Art

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Mark Liechty
                                ... A Scout is TRUSTWORTHY. Therefore Scout Leaders should be TRUSTWORTHY And to that end we should assume the training staff is also TRUSTWORTHY I have been
                                Message 15 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                                  On Nov 28, 2011, at 8:03 PM, A. Dukovic wrote:

                                  > Just because we're "volunteers" doesn't mean we can't be sued; when we've been placed in a position of responsibility over youth, we've got an obligation and "civil liability" to do it right, or at least make a "effort" to. Without following the rules, written or implied, National is NOT gonna back us, and I never want to be in that situation myself; food for thought??
                                  > ########

                                  A Scout is TRUSTWORTHY.
                                  Therefore Scout Leaders should be TRUSTWORTHY
                                  And to that end we should assume the training staff is also TRUSTWORTHY

                                  I have been active on various Sclut lists for well over a dozen years. Active in the program for over 35 years so my reference point while not massive is not small either.

                                  In all that time I have heard many many many empty hollow boogyman threats of leaders being sued and abandoned by BSA for not being trained or filing tour permits or not wearing our uniforms properly or parting our hair on the wrong side.

                                  But at the end of the day when chased down EVERY one of those threats turns out to be a basic empty LIE and, in fact, we have not seen cases when BSA has abandoned a legitimate Scout outing do to a paperwork or training issue.

                                  If we are TRUSTWORTHY as trainers and leaders we will stop those LIES and do everything possible to be sure they are no longer spread. After all, the stuff we have to offer should be good enough to stand on it's own. We, the trainers, should not be LYING BULLIES under the premise that we can TRAIN the unwashed masses.




                                  Mark Liechty
                                  ASM Troop 160
                                  GEC, Sierra Gateway District Training Chair
                                  Eagle Class of 1982

                                  Always remember that:
                                  Raising strong young men is NOT a "no-more no-less" job.
                                  Paying for bail and jail time for ARE "no-more no-less" tasks.
                                  What you do with YOUR time is YOUR decision.
                                • A. Dukovic
                                  Ya know folks, we re all right in our own situations and this could go on all night??   If you re teaching rules without example , then you re NOT doing
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Nov 28, 2011
                                    Ya know folks, we're all right in our own situations and this could go on all night??
                                     
                                    If you're "teaching" rules without "example", then you're NOT doing what's really expected; yes, IOLS is designed to teach the skills to adult leaders, all Scouts need to know to get to First Class and that's how the syllabus, as a "guide" is written, but the common sense required to survive until they hit First Class, is implied then??
                                     
                                    Getting youth into and then keeping them interested, is what it's all about and, to quote the latest "mandatory training" results, National has found that retention is way up in Councils that have "mandatory training"; youth don't just deserve a trained leader, it seems, they appreciate it??
                                     
                                    I'm sure we've all found that the kids are pretty hard to fool these days and they immediately know when we adults don't have a clue, and like pirnaha, they'll go for blood; sending any adult out without a clue, doesn't help what we're all trying to achieve folks and hate to say it again, but food for thought please??

                                    - Art

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • G.J.
                                    Art, I also know units where leaders have not attended IOLS. Some of the reasons are due to lack of courses provided. Others are due to lack of time on the
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Nov 29, 2011
                                      Art,

                                      I also know units where leaders have not attended IOLS. Some of the reasons are due to lack of courses provided. Others are due to lack of time on the leader's part. Best example of that is the WB3 beader who never attended IOLS b/c he was busy with his pack and OA, then troop, crew, district, and OA. He finally "took" IOLS when he taught the course at summer camp.

                                      In regards to the NH incident in which a 31yo ASM, who is an Eagle Scout, and two Scouts ages 13 and 14 if memory serves got lost when they had a map and compass with them, it is a very sad situation.
                                    • E Hebenthal
                                      Granted to all your examples. However, what about doing something specifically forbidden in the Guide to Safe Scouting? I ve been told that would create a
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Nov 30, 2011
                                        Granted to all your examples. However, what about doing something specifically forbidden in the Guide to Safe Scouting? I've been told that would create a problem with the insurance. I want to say it correctly when I'm training.

                                        Thanks,
                                        Elaine H.

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Mark Liechty" <mlaccs@...>
                                        To: "scouter t" <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 11:18:19 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Baloo For Webelos leaders

                                        On Nov 28, 2011, at 8:03 PM, A. Dukovic wrote:

                                        > Just because we're "volunteers" doesn't mean we can't be sued; when we've been placed in a position of responsibility over youth, we've got an obligation and "civil liability" to do it right, or at least make a "effort" to. Without following the rules, written or implied, National is NOT gonna back us, and I never want to be in that situation myself; food for thought??
                                        > ########

                                        A Scout is TRUSTWORTHY.
                                        Therefore Scout Leaders should be TRUSTWORTHY
                                        And to that end we should assume the training staff is also TRUSTWORTHY

                                        I have been active on various Sclut lists for well over a dozen years. Active in the program for over 35 years so my reference point while not massive is not small either.

                                        In all that time I have heard many many many empty hollow boogyman threats of leaders being sued and abandoned by BSA for not being trained or filing tour permits or not wearing our uniforms properly or parting our hair on the wrong side.

                                        But at the end of the day when chased down EVERY one of those threats turns out to be a basic empty LIE and, in fact, we have not seen cases when BSA has abandoned a legitimate Scout outing do to a paperwork or training issue.

                                        If we are TRUSTWORTHY as trainers and leaders we will stop those LIES and do everything possible to be sure they are no longer spread. After all, the stuff we have to offer should be good enough to stand on it's own. We, the trainers, should not be LYING BULLIES under the premise that we can TRAIN the unwashed masses.




                                        Mark Liechty
                                        ASM Troop 160
                                        GEC, Sierra Gateway District Training Chair
                                        Eagle Class of 1982

                                        Always remember that:
                                        Raising strong young men is NOT a "no-more no-less" job.
                                        Paying for bail and jail time for ARE "no-more no-less" tasks.
                                        What you do with YOUR time is YOUR decision.



                                        ------------------------------------

                                        For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                        scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                                        Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • Bill
                                        You may not be covered by insurance your reference is here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Insurance.aspx
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Nov 30, 2011
                                          You may not be covered by insurance your reference is here:

                                          http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/Alerts/Insurance.aspx



                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, E Hebenthal <ehebenthal@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Granted to all your examples. However, what about doing something specifically forbidden in the Guide to Safe Scouting? I've been told that would create a problem with the insurance. I want to say it correctly when I'm training.
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          > Elaine H.
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