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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

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  • Debbie Beer
    I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come to mind are a
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
      I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be
      required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come
      to mind are a Simple board of review, Use of merit badge councilors,
      developing leadership skills in the boys. I am all for a movement to get
      all leaders trained. Especially the ones who have been leaders for years
      without trainings.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Alvin Williams" <aew@...>
      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:10 AM
      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


      > Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
      > That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
      > trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
      > continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
      > has a trained leader.
      > Let's start a movement.
      >
      > Alvin E. Williams
      > Council Training Chair
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
      > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory
      >
      > Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
      > aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
      > trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".
      >
      > Doug Livingston
      > District Training Chair
      >
      >
      >
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    • lady_tem@prodigy.net
      Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory. But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won t you lose those leaders who
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
        Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory.
        But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won't you lose
        those leaders who refuse to go to training? And who will do the
        leading then?

        In my son's pack (which we just left last February) I know of very
        active leaders who absolutely feel they don't have to go to training -
        - if they went to training, they might not be able to wiggle their
        way out of any improper methods used (such as 2-deep leadership)
        because they would no longer have the excuse of "I didn't know."
        Also, if they went to training, they might be coerced into wearing a
        uniform - Heaven Forbid!! And there are the people who have been to
        training, but still refuse to wear the uniform!

        Then there are those others who went to training once, and feel they
        don't need to go back because they already "know it all."

        If we mandate that they attend training and wear uniform, we would
        lose those leaders, and, although I hate to admit it, those are the
        most active volunteers that the pack has.



        --- Original Message ---
        From: Ken Todd <krtodd@...>
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Training Madatory

        ><html><body>
        ><tt>
        >From what I have seen, National has been making certain training<BR>
        >mandatory for health and safety reasons for a group to participate
        in<BR>
        >some types of activities.  For example, Safe Swim Defense
        and/or Safety<BR>
        >Afloat if you have activities in, on, or next to the water; Youth<BR>
        >Protection if you are leading a group of Scouts far away from
        home,<BR>
        >such as the National Jamboree or a High Adventure Base; and the
        newer<BR>
        >climbing training if you are going to take a Crew, Team, or
        Venture<BR>
        >Patrol rock climbing.  For safety related concerns, I am all in
        favor<BR>
        >of these types of training being mandatory for the event leader who
        is<BR>
        >on-site.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >As for requiring Basic Training, I think it is in the best interest
        of<BR>
        >a Chartering Organization to require that all unit leaders attend<BR>
        >training for their position within a reasonable time of accepting
        the<BR>
        >responsibility.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >Now we just need to make the courses as available as possible to<BR>
        >everybody.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >Yours in Scouting,<BR>
        >Ken Todd, Dist. Training Chairman<BR>
        >NE-CS-59 Beaver<BR>
        ><BR>
        >--- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:<BR>
        >Message: 4<BR>
        >   Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:21:59 -0000<BR>
        >   From: zxw55@...<BR>
        >Subject: Re: Webelos Camping/Training Requirements<BR>
        ><BR>
        ><BR>
        >This is an interesting question. My experience has<BR>
        >lead me to believe that it's the sponsoring institution<BR>
        >that can make certain training manditory. I also think a <BR>
        >council can make training manditory.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >But I would agree, it seems that National is making an effort<BR>
        >to make some elements of the training manditory when they<BR>
        >haven't in the past.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >Interesting.<BR>
        ><BR>
        >dm -<BR>
        ><BR>
        ><BR>
        ><BR>
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      • Cpaitlres
        I have tried to make manditory in my council. I was told by the council legal that I couldn t make it manditory. I am still trying to figure to make it more
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
          I have tried to make manditory in my council.

          I was told by the council legal that I couldn't make it manditory. I am
          still trying to figure to make it more necessary to be trained. Anyone have
          any ideas?

          National has also taken the position not to make training manditory.

          Rick Kagawa

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Alvin Williams [mailto:aew@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:11 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


          Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
          That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
          trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
          continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
          has a trained leader.
          Let's start a movement.

          Alvin E. Williams
          Council Training Chair

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

          Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
          aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
          trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

          Doug Livingston
          District Training Chair



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        • Bill Nelson
          safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn t that make it mandatory
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
            safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
            activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
            that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

            bill
          • Ken Todd
            Bill, Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other courses you
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
              Bill,

              Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
              Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
              courses you mentioned.

              Yours in Scouting,
              Ken

              --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              Message: 4
              Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
              From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
              Subject: Re: Training Madatory

              safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
              activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
              that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

              bill



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            • Lloyd Solis
              I think BSA really missed the boat on their descriptive recommended target for BALOO. Sure, it s great to expose new leaders to the concepts of outdoor
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                for BALOO.
                Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                YiS
                Lloyd

                Ken Todd wrote:

                > Bill,
                >
                > Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
                > Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
                > courses you mentioned.
                >
                > Yours in Scouting,
                > Ken
                >
                > --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                > Message: 4
                > Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
                > From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                > Subject: Re: Training Madatory
                >
                > safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                > activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                > that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*
                >
                > bill
                >
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              • Bill Smith
                ... Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that. I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee has come up with. The
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                  Lloyd Solis wrote:

                  > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                  > for BALOO.
                  > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                  > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                  > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                  > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                  >
                  > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.

                  Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                  I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee
                  has
                  come up with.
                  The outdoor program is merely a method, albeit a good one, but the the objective

                  is not better camping, or even camping at all. The objectives are, in part,
                  family
                  understanding, fun and adventure.
                  When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                  responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son of
                  the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                  family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                  had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                  we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.

                  Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                  training. Force another parent to go.
                  --
                  Bill Smith
                  Sunset Trail District
                  Cascade Pacific Council
                  Portland, Oregon

                  The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                  Get his parents involved.
                  http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sean Scott
                  ... target for BALOO. ... leader ... for ... of cub ... of ... Ooof! I agree with you both! There s lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes beyond camping and
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                    Lloyd Solis wrote:
                    > > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended
                    target' for BALOO.
                    > > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor
                    leader
                    > > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important
                    for
                    > > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                    > > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge
                    of cub
                    > > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                    >
                    Bill wrote in reply (in part):
                    > Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                    > When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                    > responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son
                    of
                    > the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                    > family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                    > had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                    > we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.
                    >
                    > Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                    > training. Force another parent to go.

                    Ooof! I agree with you both! There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes
                    beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,
                    many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                    that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                    camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                    part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                    to those ideas.

                    How about some of the pack leaders go and take the fresh parents with 'em?

                    Sean Scott
                    Training Chairman
                    Cub Roundtable Commissioner
                    Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District
                    Family FOS Chairman, California Inland Empire Council

                    WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
                  • Bill Smith
                    ... Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I m sure that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will see to it that all current
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                      Sean Scott wrote:

                      > There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes

                      > beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,

                      > many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                      > that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                      > camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                      > part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                      > to those ideas.
                      >

                      Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I'm sure
                      that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will
                      see to it that all current leaders get it when they attend RT.
                      I know they will RT attend because they only have one job in
                      their pack and don't feel that one more night away from home
                      is a burden on their families. ;)

                      --
                      Bill Smith
                      Sunset Trail District
                      Cascade Pacific Council
                      Portland, Oregon

                      The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                      Get his parents involved.
                      http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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