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RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

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  • Marshall J Creighton
    Remember, you can t get your position knot without receiving training. This may not be much of an incentive, but it does motivate some folks. And what about
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
      Remember, you can't get your position knot without receiving training.
      This may not be much of an incentive, but it does motivate some folks. And
      what about quality unit?

      Marshall Creighton
      Webelos Den Leader
      PAck 191



      "Alvin
      Williams" To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
      <aew@itlnet.n cc:
      et> Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

      09/04/2001
      11:10 AM
      Please
      respond to
      scouter_t





      Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
      That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
      trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
      continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
      has a trained leader.
      Let's start a movement.

      Alvin E. Williams
      Council Training Chair

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

      Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
      aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
      trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

      Doug Livingston
      District Training Chair



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    • Debbie Beer
      I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come to mind are a
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
        I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be
        required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come
        to mind are a Simple board of review, Use of merit badge councilors,
        developing leadership skills in the boys. I am all for a movement to get
        all leaders trained. Especially the ones who have been leaders for years
        without trainings.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Alvin Williams" <aew@...>
        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:10 AM
        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


        > Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
        > That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
        > trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
        > continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
        > has a trained leader.
        > Let's start a movement.
        >
        > Alvin E. Williams
        > Council Training Chair
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory
        >
        > Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
        > aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
        > trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".
        >
        > Doug Livingston
        > District Training Chair
        >
        >
        >
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        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
      • lady_tem@prodigy.net
        Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory. But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won t you lose those leaders who
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
          Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory.
          But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won't you lose
          those leaders who refuse to go to training? And who will do the
          leading then?

          In my son's pack (which we just left last February) I know of very
          active leaders who absolutely feel they don't have to go to training -
          - if they went to training, they might not be able to wiggle their
          way out of any improper methods used (such as 2-deep leadership)
          because they would no longer have the excuse of "I didn't know."
          Also, if they went to training, they might be coerced into wearing a
          uniform - Heaven Forbid!! And there are the people who have been to
          training, but still refuse to wear the uniform!

          Then there are those others who went to training once, and feel they
          don't need to go back because they already "know it all."

          If we mandate that they attend training and wear uniform, we would
          lose those leaders, and, although I hate to admit it, those are the
          most active volunteers that the pack has.



          --- Original Message ---
          From: Ken Todd <krtodd@...>
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Training Madatory

          ><html><body>
          ><tt>
          >From what I have seen, National has been making certain training<BR>
          >mandatory for health and safety reasons for a group to participate
          in<BR>
          >some types of activities.  For example, Safe Swim Defense
          and/or Safety<BR>
          >Afloat if you have activities in, on, or next to the water; Youth<BR>
          >Protection if you are leading a group of Scouts far away from
          home,<BR>
          >such as the National Jamboree or a High Adventure Base; and the
          newer<BR>
          >climbing training if you are going to take a Crew, Team, or
          Venture<BR>
          >Patrol rock climbing.  For safety related concerns, I am all in
          favor<BR>
          >of these types of training being mandatory for the event leader who
          is<BR>
          >on-site.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >As for requiring Basic Training, I think it is in the best interest
          of<BR>
          >a Chartering Organization to require that all unit leaders attend<BR>
          >training for their position within a reasonable time of accepting
          the<BR>
          >responsibility.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >Now we just need to make the courses as available as possible to<BR>
          >everybody.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >Yours in Scouting,<BR>
          >Ken Todd, Dist. Training Chairman<BR>
          >NE-CS-59 Beaver<BR>
          ><BR>
          >--- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:<BR>
          >Message: 4<BR>
          >   Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:21:59 -0000<BR>
          >   From: zxw55@...<BR>
          >Subject: Re: Webelos Camping/Training Requirements<BR>
          ><BR>
          ><BR>
          >This is an interesting question. My experience has<BR>
          >lead me to believe that it's the sponsoring institution<BR>
          >that can make certain training manditory. I also think a <BR>
          >council can make training manditory.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >But I would agree, it seems that National is making an effort<BR>
          >to make some elements of the training manditory when they<BR>
          >haven't in the past.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >Interesting.<BR>
          ><BR>
          >dm -<BR>
          ><BR>
          ><BR>
          ><BR>
          >__________________________________________________<BR>
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        • Cpaitlres
          I have tried to make manditory in my council. I was told by the council legal that I couldn t make it manditory. I am still trying to figure to make it more
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
            I have tried to make manditory in my council.

            I was told by the council legal that I couldn't make it manditory. I am
            still trying to figure to make it more necessary to be trained. Anyone have
            any ideas?

            National has also taken the position not to make training manditory.

            Rick Kagawa

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Alvin Williams [mailto:aew@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:11 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


            Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
            That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
            trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
            continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
            has a trained leader.
            Let's start a movement.

            Alvin E. Williams
            Council Training Chair

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

            Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
            aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
            trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

            Doug Livingston
            District Training Chair



            For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

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            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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          • Bill Nelson
            safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn t that make it mandatory
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
              safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
              activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
              that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

              bill
            • Ken Todd
              Bill, Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other courses you
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                Bill,

                Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
                Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
                courses you mentioned.

                Yours in Scouting,
                Ken

                --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                Message: 4
                Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
                From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                Subject: Re: Training Madatory

                safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

                bill



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              • Lloyd Solis
                I think BSA really missed the boat on their descriptive recommended target for BALOO. Sure, it s great to expose new leaders to the concepts of outdoor
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                  I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                  for BALOO.
                  Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                  training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                  'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                  All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                  camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                  YiS
                  Lloyd

                  Ken Todd wrote:

                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
                  > Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
                  > courses you mentioned.
                  >
                  > Yours in Scouting,
                  > Ken
                  >
                  > --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                  > Message: 4
                  > Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
                  > From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                  > Subject: Re: Training Madatory
                  >
                  > safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                  > activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                  > that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*
                  >
                  > bill
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
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                • Bill Smith
                  ... Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that. I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee has come up with. The
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                    Lloyd Solis wrote:

                    > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                    > for BALOO.
                    > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                    > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                    > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                    > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                    >
                    > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.

                    Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                    I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee
                    has
                    come up with.
                    The outdoor program is merely a method, albeit a good one, but the the objective

                    is not better camping, or even camping at all. The objectives are, in part,
                    family
                    understanding, fun and adventure.
                    When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                    responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son of
                    the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                    family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                    had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                    we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.

                    Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                    training. Force another parent to go.
                    --
                    Bill Smith
                    Sunset Trail District
                    Cascade Pacific Council
                    Portland, Oregon

                    The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                    Get his parents involved.
                    http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Sean Scott
                    ... target for BALOO. ... leader ... for ... of cub ... of ... Ooof! I agree with you both! There s lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes beyond camping and
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                      Lloyd Solis wrote:
                      > > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended
                      target' for BALOO.
                      > > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor
                      leader
                      > > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important
                      for
                      > > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                      > > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge
                      of cub
                      > > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                      >
                      Bill wrote in reply (in part):
                      > Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                      > When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                      > responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son
                      of
                      > the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                      > family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                      > had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                      > we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.
                      >
                      > Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                      > training. Force another parent to go.

                      Ooof! I agree with you both! There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes
                      beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,
                      many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                      that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                      camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                      part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                      to those ideas.

                      How about some of the pack leaders go and take the fresh parents with 'em?

                      Sean Scott
                      Training Chairman
                      Cub Roundtable Commissioner
                      Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District
                      Family FOS Chairman, California Inland Empire Council

                      WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
                    • Bill Smith
                      ... Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I m sure that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will see to it that all current
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
                        Sean Scott wrote:

                        > There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes

                        > beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,

                        > many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                        > that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                        > camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                        > part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                        > to those ideas.
                        >

                        Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I'm sure
                        that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will
                        see to it that all current leaders get it when they attend RT.
                        I know they will RT attend because they only have one job in
                        their pack and don't feel that one more night away from home
                        is a burden on their families. ;)

                        --
                        Bill Smith
                        Sunset Trail District
                        Cascade Pacific Council
                        Portland, Oregon

                        The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                        Get his parents involved.
                        http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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