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RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

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  • Alvin Williams
    Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training. That s not to say that we don t have good trainers, we have great trainers. We don t have a
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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      Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
      That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
      trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
      continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
      has a trained leader.
      Let's start a movement.

      Alvin E. Williams
      Council Training Chair

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

      Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
      aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
      trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

      Doug Livingston
      District Training Chair



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    • Marshall J Creighton
      Remember, you can t get your position knot without receiving training. This may not be much of an incentive, but it does motivate some folks. And what about
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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        Remember, you can't get your position knot without receiving training.
        This may not be much of an incentive, but it does motivate some folks. And
        what about quality unit?

        Marshall Creighton
        Webelos Den Leader
        PAck 191



        "Alvin
        Williams" To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        <aew@itlnet.n cc:
        et> Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

        09/04/2001
        11:10 AM
        Please
        respond to
        scouter_t





        Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
        That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
        trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
        continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
        has a trained leader.
        Let's start a movement.

        Alvin E. Williams
        Council Training Chair

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

        Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
        aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
        trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

        Doug Livingston
        District Training Chair



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      • Debbie Beer
        I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come to mind are a
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 4, 2001
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          I agree with you. leaders should be trained and then they should be
          required to follow the standards set by the boy scouts. Examples that come
          to mind are a Simple board of review, Use of merit badge councilors,
          developing leadership skills in the boys. I am all for a movement to get
          all leaders trained. Especially the ones who have been leaders for years
          without trainings.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Alvin Williams" <aew@...>
          To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:10 AM
          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


          > Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
          > That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
          > trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
          > continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
          > has a trained leader.
          > Let's start a movement.
          >
          > Alvin E. Williams
          > Council Training Chair
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory
          >
          > Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
          > aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
          > trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".
          >
          > Doug Livingston
          > District Training Chair
          >
          >
          >
          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Scouting The Net - http://www.arkie.net/scouting/
          >
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          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
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          >
        • lady_tem@prodigy.net
          Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory. But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won t you lose those leaders who
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 5, 2001
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            Well, I am with those of you who agree training should be mandatory.
            But, let me ask you this: if training is mandatory, won't you lose
            those leaders who refuse to go to training? And who will do the
            leading then?

            In my son's pack (which we just left last February) I know of very
            active leaders who absolutely feel they don't have to go to training -
            - if they went to training, they might not be able to wiggle their
            way out of any improper methods used (such as 2-deep leadership)
            because they would no longer have the excuse of "I didn't know."
            Also, if they went to training, they might be coerced into wearing a
            uniform - Heaven Forbid!! And there are the people who have been to
            training, but still refuse to wear the uniform!

            Then there are those others who went to training once, and feel they
            don't need to go back because they already "know it all."

            If we mandate that they attend training and wear uniform, we would
            lose those leaders, and, although I hate to admit it, those are the
            most active volunteers that the pack has.



            --- Original Message ---
            From: Ken Todd <krtodd@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Training Madatory

            ><html><body>
            ><tt>
            >From what I have seen, National has been making certain training<BR>
            >mandatory for health and safety reasons for a group to participate
            in<BR>
            >some types of activities.  For example, Safe Swim Defense
            and/or Safety<BR>
            >Afloat if you have activities in, on, or next to the water; Youth<BR>
            >Protection if you are leading a group of Scouts far away from
            home,<BR>
            >such as the National Jamboree or a High Adventure Base; and the
            newer<BR>
            >climbing training if you are going to take a Crew, Team, or
            Venture<BR>
            >Patrol rock climbing.  For safety related concerns, I am all in
            favor<BR>
            >of these types of training being mandatory for the event leader who
            is<BR>
            >on-site.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >As for requiring Basic Training, I think it is in the best interest
            of<BR>
            >a Chartering Organization to require that all unit leaders attend<BR>
            >training for their position within a reasonable time of accepting
            the<BR>
            >responsibility.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >Now we just need to make the courses as available as possible to<BR>
            >everybody.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >Yours in Scouting,<BR>
            >Ken Todd, Dist. Training Chairman<BR>
            >NE-CS-59 Beaver<BR>
            ><BR>
            >--- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:<BR>
            >Message: 4<BR>
            >   Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 01:21:59 -0000<BR>
            >   From: zxw55@...<BR>
            >Subject: Re: Webelos Camping/Training Requirements<BR>
            ><BR>
            ><BR>
            >This is an interesting question. My experience has<BR>
            >lead me to believe that it's the sponsoring institution<BR>
            >that can make certain training manditory. I also think a <BR>
            >council can make training manditory.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >But I would agree, it seems that National is making an effort<BR>
            >to make some elements of the training manditory when they<BR>
            >haven't in the past.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >Interesting.<BR>
            ><BR>
            >dm -<BR>
            ><BR>
            ><BR>
            ><BR>
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          • Cpaitlres
            I have tried to make manditory in my council. I was told by the council legal that I couldn t make it manditory. I am still trying to figure to make it more
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
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              I have tried to make manditory in my council.

              I was told by the council legal that I couldn't make it manditory. I am
              still trying to figure to make it more necessary to be trained. Anyone have
              any ideas?

              National has also taken the position not to make training manditory.

              Rick Kagawa

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Alvin Williams [mailto:aew@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:11 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory


              Doug, I agree. The greatest weakness in the BSA is leader training.
              That's not to say that we don't have good trainers, we have great
              trainers. We don't have a way to enforce the suggested training
              continuum. Mandatory training is the only way to insure that every youth
              has a trained leader.
              Let's start a movement.

              Alvin E. Williams
              Council Training Chair

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Doug Livingston [mailto:av8or@...]
              Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:03 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Training Madatory

              Too bad it isn't like Scouting in some other countries where you
              aren't allowed to wear the uniform as a leader until you have been
              trained. That's what I would consider "mandatory".

              Doug Livingston
              District Training Chair



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            • Bill Nelson
              safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn t that make it mandatory
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 6, 2001
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                safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

                bill
              • Ken Todd
                Bill, Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other courses you
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
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                  Bill,

                  Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
                  Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
                  courses you mentioned.

                  Yours in Scouting,
                  Ken

                  --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                  Message: 4
                  Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
                  From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                  Subject: Re: Training Madatory

                  safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                  activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                  that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*

                  bill



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                • Lloyd Solis
                  I think BSA really missed the boat on their descriptive recommended target for BALOO. Sure, it s great to expose new leaders to the concepts of outdoor
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
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                    I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                    for BALOO.
                    Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                    training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                    'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                    All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                    camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                    YiS
                    Lloyd

                    Ken Todd wrote:

                    > Bill,
                    >
                    > Since the target audience for BALOO is parents who are not Den or Pack
                    > Leaders, Basic Training is not required for this or any of the other
                    > courses you mentioned.
                    >
                    > Yours in Scouting,
                    > Ken
                    >
                    > --- scouter_t@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                    > Message: 4
                    > Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:20:56 -0000
                    > From: "Bill Nelson" <bnelson45@...>
                    > Subject: Re: Training Madatory
                    >
                    > safe swim, baloo, and some other courses are manditory for certain
                    > activities. Is cub scout basic a pre-req for baloo? If so, wouldn't
                    > that make it mandatory for some activities *sly grin*
                    >
                    > bill
                    >
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                  • Bill Smith
                    ... Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that. I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee has come up with. The
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
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                      Lloyd Solis wrote:

                      > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended target'
                      > for BALOO.
                      > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor leader
                      > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important for
                      > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                      > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge of cub
                      >
                      > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.

                      Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                      I believe that this is one of the better ideas that the National CS Committee
                      has
                      come up with.
                      The outdoor program is merely a method, albeit a good one, but the the objective

                      is not better camping, or even camping at all. The objectives are, in part,
                      family
                      understanding, fun and adventure.
                      When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                      responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son of
                      the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                      family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                      had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                      we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.

                      Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                      training. Force another parent to go.
                      --
                      Bill Smith
                      Sunset Trail District
                      Cascade Pacific Council
                      Portland, Oregon

                      The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                      Get his parents involved.
                      http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sean Scott
                      ... target for BALOO. ... leader ... for ... of cub ... of ... Ooof! I agree with you both! There s lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes beyond camping and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
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                        Lloyd Solis wrote:
                        > > I think BSA really missed the boat on their 'descriptive recommended
                        target' for BALOO.
                        > > Sure, it's great to 'expose new leaders' to the concepts of outdoor
                        leader
                        > > training. The way it's worded appears to suggest that it's not important
                        for
                        > > 'current pack leadership'. That's a shame.
                        > > All leaders, including committee people should have a working knowledge
                        of cub
                        > > camping, even if they never 'hit the woods'.
                        >
                        Bill wrote in reply (in part):
                        > Lloyd, I must respectfully disagree with you on that.
                        > When the current leadership of a pack takes on yet another job or
                        > responsibility, there is a tendency to hurt at least two boys: 1) the son
                        of
                        > the now overloaded leader who now must sacrifice more of his/her
                        > family time for the good of the pack, and 2) the boy who could have
                        > had a parent role model helping make the pack go but won't because
                        > we let that parent take a free baby sitting role.
                        >
                        > Good pack and den leaders should steadfastly refuse to take BALOO
                        > training. Force another parent to go.

                        Ooof! I agree with you both! There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes
                        beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,
                        many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                        that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                        camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                        part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                        to those ideas.

                        How about some of the pack leaders go and take the fresh parents with 'em?

                        Sean Scott
                        Training Chairman
                        Cub Roundtable Commissioner
                        Day Camp Director, Tahquitz District
                        Family FOS Chairman, California Inland Empire Council

                        WM-45-2-00 - "I used to be a Buffalo..."
                      • Bill Smith
                        ... Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I m sure that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will see to it that all current
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 7, 2001
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                          Sean Scott wrote:

                          > There's lots of cool stuff in BALOO that goes

                          > beyond camping and is easily worked into den and pack meetings. In fact,

                          > many of the leaders that took our BALOO in March wrote on their evaluations
                          > that BALOO should be mandatory for all leaders, even if they never go
                          > camping. Others noted that the Planning, Hikes and Games segments should be
                          > part of basic training, and that BSA is remiss in not exposing every leader
                          > to those ideas.
                          >

                          Yes, Sean there certainly is a lot of great stuff there, and I'm sure
                          that a good RT Commissioner (names to be unmentioned) will
                          see to it that all current leaders get it when they attend RT.
                          I know they will RT attend because they only have one job in
                          their pack and don't feel that one more night away from home
                          is a burden on their families. ;)

                          --
                          Bill Smith
                          Sunset Trail District
                          Cascade Pacific Council
                          Portland, Oregon

                          The best gift for a Cub Scout:
                          Get his parents involved.
                          http://www.wtsmith.com/rt.html



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