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Re: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

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  • Rick Hanke
    Hi Jim, Hold your ground. You are correct in your course of action here. Becoming an Eagle is about the scout, not his parents. Parents are Great but they can
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
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      Hi Jim,

      Hold your ground. You are correct in your course of action here.

      Becoming an Eagle is about the scout, not his parents.

      Parents are Great but they can also be a pain in the butt. We do scouts
      a disservice to yield to the wrong course.

      As An Eagle Scout I want those to follow to have learned something, not taken
      the easy path..

      In Humble Service,

      Rick

      Rick Hanke
      District Commissioner
      Lakeshore
      Gerald R. Ford Council

      Eagle Scout 67'

      Just A Good Old Bear Am I


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
      To: Scouter_T list <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 6:54:15 AM
      Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

      Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?

      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Jim,
      If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
      project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
      video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
      lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".

      This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
      develop ideas (or simply correct me).

      I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.

      · Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
      project. The Committee members question if this project can be
      conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
      makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
      projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
      find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
      be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
      included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don’t
      count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
      interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
      role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
      effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
      adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
      project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
      discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
      follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
      leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
      handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
      project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
      the project.

      (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
      · "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
      conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
      playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
      directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
      some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
      project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
      be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
      individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
      project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
      distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
      the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
      performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
      exclusively for this project.
      I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
      possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
      imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
      greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
      Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
      must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
      Now what do I do? ....

      Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
      identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
      concern.

      In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
      Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
      responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
      others" is required.

      Phone arguments to date include
      1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
      2) other councils haven't felt this way
      3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
      4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.

      Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
      1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
      permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
      service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
      always served others outside the church.

      It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
      others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
      satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
      Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
      service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
      context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
      defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
      resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
      sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
      respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks

      Yours in Service to Scouting,
      -- Jim
      District Eagle Committee member
      Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Charlie
      I agree.. This site is a scouters who are in need of help- training is helping. Charlie Hawes Sweetwater District Trainer ... [Non-text portions of this
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
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        I agree.. This site is a scouters who are in need of help- training is helping.

        Charlie Hawes
        Sweetwater District Trainer





        On Jul 16, 2011, at 10:56 AM, "Corb Sarchet" <corbms3@...> wrote:

        > Kick it up stairs to your District advancement chairman. No use tearing up
        > the troop. However, there is no requirement he give leadership only to
        > other Scouts nor that a project benefiting his (School) band as opposed to
        > any other group would be out of bounds.
        >
        > And I disagree with Jon-----this does deal with training...training of
        > advancement chairs.
        >
        > Corb
        >
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of Jon Baake
        > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:04 AM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!
        >
        > Interesting discussion but... the purpose of scouter_t is to discuss
        > training topics. Let's keep the scouter_t yahoo group focused on training
        > topics and use other means to discuss non-training topics.
        >
        > Jon
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
        > [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
        > Behalf
        > Of Jim
        > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:54 AM
        > To: Scouter_T list
        > Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!
        >
        > Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?
        >
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > Jim,
        > If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
        > project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
        > video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
        > lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".
        >
        > This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
        > develop ideas (or simply correct me).
        >
        > I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.
        >
        > . Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
        > project. The Committee members question if this project can be
        > conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
        > makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
        > projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
        > find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
        > be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
        > included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don't
        > count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
        > interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
        > role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
        > effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
        > adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
        > project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
        > discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
        > follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
        > leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
        > handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
        > project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
        > the project.
        >
        > (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
        > . "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
        > conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
        > playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
        > directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
        > some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
        > project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
        > be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
        > individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
        > project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
        > distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
        > the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
        > performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
        > exclusively for this project.
        > I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
        > possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
        > imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
        > greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
        > Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
        > must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
        > Now what do I do? ....
        >
        > Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
        > identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
        > concern.
        >
        > In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
        > Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
        > responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
        > others" is required.
        >
        > Phone arguments to date include
        > 1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
        > 2) other councils haven't felt this way
        > 3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
        > 4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.
        >
        > Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
        > 1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
        > permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
        > service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
        > always served others outside the church.
        >
        > It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
        > others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
        > satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
        > Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
        > service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
        > context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
        > defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
        > resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~
        > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        > For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
        > sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
        > respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks
        >
        > Yours in Service to Scouting,
        > -- Jim
        > District Eagle Committee member
        > Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
        > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t-help%40yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > _____
        >
        > No virus found in this message.
        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3768 - Release Date: 07/16/11
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • The Little's
        I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say. They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say it is okay and they
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 17, 2011
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          I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say.
          They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say
          it is okay and they don't you will find the troop and the scout at ends.
          They could also give you parameters to meet if they allow the project
          idea. Little's
        • Corinna Jones
          In our council the district advancement chair and individuals selected by her approve Eagle projects. Corinna ... From: The Little s
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 18, 2011
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            In our council the district advancement chair and individuals selected by
            her approve Eagle projects.
            Corinna

            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "The Little's" <glittle@...>
            Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:03 PM
            To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

            > I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say.
            > They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say
            > it is okay and they don't you will find the troop and the scout at ends.
            > They could also give you parameters to meet if they allow the project
            > idea. Little's
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
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