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HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

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  • Jim
    Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma? ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim,
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
      Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?

      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Jim,
      If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
      project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
      video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
      lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".

      This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
      develop ideas (or simply correct me).

      I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.

      � Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
      project. The Committee members question if this project can be
      conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
      makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
      projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
      find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
      be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
      included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don�t
      count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
      interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
      role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
      effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
      adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
      project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
      discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
      follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
      leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
      handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
      project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
      the project.

      (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
      � "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
      conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
      playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
      directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
      some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
      project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
      be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
      individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
      project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
      distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
      the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
      performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
      exclusively for this project.
      I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
      possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
      imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
      greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
      Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
      must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
      Now what do I do? ....

      Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
      identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
      concern.

      In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
      Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
      responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
      others" is required.

      Phone arguments to date include
      1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
      2) other councils haven't felt this way
      3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
      4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.

      Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
      1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
      permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
      service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
      always served others outside the church.

      It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
      others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
      satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
      Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
      service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
      context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
      defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
      resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
      sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
      respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks

      Yours in Service to Scouting,
      -- Jim
      District Eagle Committee member
      Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ellyn W.
      Hi Jim - I ve only been a Committee Chair for 2 years, but I m going to go out on a limb and say that I think this is a refreshingly original idea for an Eagle
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
        Hi Jim -

        I've only been a Committee Chair for 2 years, but I'm going to go out on a
        limb and say that I think this is a refreshingly original idea for an Eagle
        project.

        When the requirement says the project has to be of service to others, I
        interpret that to mean that the scout himself, his family, the troop or the
        BSA cannot benefit.

        There is also nothing in the requirements as to who may or may not
        volunteer. If a project is done for an organization such as a church, are
        church members excluded from volunteering? (Church-related projects I have
        seen on the internet include building bookcases for the Sunday school
        area - I don't think a project done for a church has to serve an
        organization other than the church.). I also don't see any requirement that
        the troop and/ or its affiliated pack must be included, although it would be
        nice if that were the case.

        It seems that there is a lot of opportunity to show leadership with this
        project. My overall impression is that your troop is adding to the
        requirements but I am also aware that some districts may do that.

        I would perhaps encourage the Scout to make more of an effort to see if the
        school would allow other Scouts to work on the project. It is somewhat
        distasteful to have the beneficiary of an Eagle project not allow Scouts to
        participate... maybe that is the biggest issue here.

        I look forward to hearing what others have to say!

        Ellyn
      • Jamie Niss Dunn
        Jim - isn t
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
          <<Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
          dentify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
          oncern.>>

          Jim - isn't the requirement to lead? someone - anyone? Where does the requirement state that the Eagle candidate must lead other Scouts? Yes, its traditional, but is it required? If he's showing leadership outside of Scouts isn't that what we're preparing him to do?

          As for "band benefitting band", he's helping the school community in general, by offering opportunities to future band members; raising awareness of the arts and what they offer to the school; and aiding the PTSA in its mission of supporting the band and the school.

          Yes this project is outside the parameters of what many Eagle candidates do. However, just because the Scout is stretching the envelope, doesn't disqualify the project, it requires more imagination and flexibility on the part of the Scout (and the Advancement committee).

          BTW - wearing my moderator hat here. This isn't really a training issue, which is what Scouter_T is intended to address. You would be better served by a discussion on Boy-Scout-Talk (another Yahoo! group) or Scouts-L.



          Jamie Niss Dunn
          Pack Trainer, Pack 512
          Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
          Troop Committee, Troop 509
          Ham Lake, MN
          Secretary, Crew 849
          Coon Rapids, MN
          Cub Scout Training Coordinator
          Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
          Three Rivers District



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jon Baake
          Interesting discussion but... the purpose of scouter_t is to discuss training topics. Let s keep the scouter_t yahoo group focused on training topics and use
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
            Interesting discussion but... the purpose of scouter_t is to discuss
            training topics. Let's keep the scouter_t yahoo group focused on training
            topics and use other means to discuss non-training topics.

            Jon

            -----Original Message-----
            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Jim
            Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:54 AM
            To: Scouter_T list
            Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

            Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?

            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            Jim,
            If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
            project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
            video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
            lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".

            This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
            develop ideas (or simply correct me).

            I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.

            . Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
            project. The Committee members question if this project can be
            conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
            makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
            projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
            find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
            be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
            included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don't
            count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
            interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
            role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
            effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
            adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
            project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
            discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
            follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
            leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
            handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
            project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
            the project.

            (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
            . "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
            conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
            playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
            directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
            some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
            project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
            be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
            individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
            project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
            distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
            the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
            performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
            exclusively for this project.
            I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
            possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
            imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
            greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
            Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
            must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
            Now what do I do? ....

            Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
            identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
            concern.

            In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
            Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
            responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
            others" is required.

            Phone arguments to date include
            1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
            2) other councils haven't felt this way
            3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
            4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.

            Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
            1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
            permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
            service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
            always served others outside the church.

            It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
            others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
            satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
            Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
            service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
            context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
            defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
            resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
            sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
            respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks

            Yours in Service to Scouting,
            -- Jim
            District Eagle Committee member
            Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          • Rick Hanke
            Hi Jim, Hold your ground. You are correct in your course of action here. Becoming an Eagle is about the scout, not his parents. Parents are Great but they can
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
              Hi Jim,

              Hold your ground. You are correct in your course of action here.

              Becoming an Eagle is about the scout, not his parents.

              Parents are Great but they can also be a pain in the butt. We do scouts
              a disservice to yield to the wrong course.

              As An Eagle Scout I want those to follow to have learned something, not taken
              the easy path..

              In Humble Service,

              Rick

              Rick Hanke
              District Commissioner
              Lakeshore
              Gerald R. Ford Council

              Eagle Scout 67'

              Just A Good Old Bear Am I


              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Jim <scoutingislife@...>
              To: Scouter_T list <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 6:54:15 AM
              Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

              Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?

              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              Jim,
              If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
              project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
              video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
              lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".

              This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
              develop ideas (or simply correct me).

              I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.

              · Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
              project. The Committee members question if this project can be
              conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
              makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
              projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
              find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
              be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
              included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don’t
              count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
              interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
              role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
              effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
              adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
              project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
              discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
              follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
              leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
              handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
              project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
              the project.

              (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
              · "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
              conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
              playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
              directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
              some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
              project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
              be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
              individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
              project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
              distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
              the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
              performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
              exclusively for this project.
              I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
              possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
              imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
              greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
              Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
              must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
              Now what do I do? ....

              Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
              identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
              concern.

              In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
              Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
              responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
              others" is required.

              Phone arguments to date include
              1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
              2) other councils haven't felt this way
              3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
              4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.

              Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
              1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
              permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
              service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
              always served others outside the church.

              It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
              others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
              satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
              Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
              service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
              context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
              defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
              resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
              sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
              respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks

              Yours in Service to Scouting,
              -- Jim
              District Eagle Committee member
              Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

              Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Corb Sarchet
              Kick it up stairs to your District advancement chairman. No use tearing up the troop. However, there is no requirement he give leadership only to other Scouts
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
                Kick it up stairs to your District advancement chairman. No use tearing up
                the troop. However, there is no requirement he give leadership only to
                other Scouts nor that a project benefiting his (School) band as opposed to
                any other group would be out of bounds.

                And I disagree with Jon-----this does deal with training...training of
                advancement chairs.



                Corb



                From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                Of Jon Baake
                Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:04 AM
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!





                Interesting discussion but... the purpose of scouter_t is to discuss
                training topics. Let's keep the scouter_t yahoo group focused on training
                topics and use other means to discuss non-training topics.

                Jon

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                Behalf
                Of Jim
                Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:54 AM
                To: Scouter_T list
                Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

                Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?

                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Jim,
                If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
                project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
                video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
                lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".

                This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
                develop ideas (or simply correct me).

                I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.

                . Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
                project. The Committee members question if this project can be
                conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
                makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
                projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
                find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
                be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
                included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don't
                count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
                interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
                role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
                effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
                adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
                project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
                discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
                follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
                leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
                handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
                project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
                the project.

                (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
                . "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
                conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
                playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
                directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
                some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
                project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
                be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
                individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
                project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
                distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
                the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
                performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
                exclusively for this project.
                I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
                possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
                imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
                greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
                Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
                must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
                Now what do I do? ....

                Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
                identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
                concern.

                In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
                Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
                responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
                others" is required.

                Phone arguments to date include
                1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
                2) other councils haven't felt this way
                3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
                4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.

                Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
                1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
                permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
                service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
                always served others outside the church.

                It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
                others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
                satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
                Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
                service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
                context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
                defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
                resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
                sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
                respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks

                Yours in Service to Scouting,
                -- Jim
                District Eagle Committee member
                Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t-help%40yahoogroups.com>

                Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links



                _____

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                Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Charlie
                I agree.. This site is a scouters who are in need of help- training is helping. Charlie Hawes Sweetwater District Trainer ... [Non-text portions of this
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 16, 2011
                  I agree.. This site is a scouters who are in need of help- training is helping.

                  Charlie Hawes
                  Sweetwater District Trainer





                  On Jul 16, 2011, at 10:56 AM, "Corb Sarchet" <corbms3@...> wrote:

                  > Kick it up stairs to your District advancement chairman. No use tearing up
                  > the troop. However, there is no requirement he give leadership only to
                  > other Scouts nor that a project benefiting his (School) band as opposed to
                  > any other group would be out of bounds.
                  >
                  > And I disagree with Jon-----this does deal with training...training of
                  > advancement chairs.
                  >
                  > Corb
                  >
                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  > Of Jon Baake
                  > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 10:04 AM
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!
                  >
                  > Interesting discussion but... the purpose of scouter_t is to discuss
                  > training topics. Let's keep the scouter_t yahoo group focused on training
                  > topics and use other means to discuss non-training topics.
                  >
                  > Jon
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                  > Behalf
                  > Of Jim
                  > Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 6:54 AM
                  > To: Scouter_T list
                  > Subject: [Scouter_T] HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!
                  >
                  > Does anyone have any advice/perspective on this Eagle Project dilemma?
                  >
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > Jim,
                  > If you recall the Eagle Committee meeting before last, we reviewed a
                  > project where (Eagle Candidate)'s project was to make a promotional
                  > video of his school band. We liked the idea, but we struggled with the
                  > lack of Scouts (none) in the project and the "Band serving the Band".
                  >
                  > This project has turned ticklish. I need someone to help me and
                  > develop ideas (or simply correct me).
                  >
                  > I submitted a letter to (Eagle Candidate) with the following excerpt.
                  >
                  > . Leadership: Leadership is a key requirement for an Eagle
                  > project. The Committee members question if this project can be
                  > conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. The project as stated
                  > makes a good service project, but not an adequate Eagle project. Eagle
                  > projects require leadership, not individual contribution. You need to
                  > find volunteers (e.g. Scouts or students) willing to participate and
                  > be lead by you. Band members who benefit from the project cannot be
                  > included in the leadership requirement (e.g. band member hours don't
                  > count toward your project). Scripting, directing, filming,
                  > interviewing, editing by others would be ideal with you playing the
                  > role of producer. Please describe how you envision leading this
                  > effort. What role will you take in each task? How will you handle
                  > adults and others who might be too helpful and tempted to lead your
                  > project? Include fundraising and the actual activity in this
                  > discussion. Words like instruct, demonstrate, assign, organize, and
                  > follow-up might be used in this discussion. Items that indicate
                  > leadership includes project originality, fundraising and fiscal
                  > handling, contact and negotiations with adults, supervision of the
                  > project tasks, planning the project, and development and complexity of
                  > the project.
                  >
                  > (Eagle Candidate) responded with the following:
                  > . "Leadership: I strongly believe that this project can be
                  > conducted to adequately demonstrate leadership. I envision myself
                  > playing the role of director/producer, leading, managing, and
                  > directing my fellow band members and by extension this project. In
                  > some cases, I will lead by directly managing certain segments of the
                  > project, while in others I will lead indirectly by delegating tasks to
                  > be managed by others. This recruitment video is by no means an
                  > individual effort; I will not be personally filming any portion of the
                  > project, and nor will I be found individually scripting, sampling, or
                  > distributing. This project also goes above and beyond simply filming
                  > the Black and Gold Brigade while they engage in routine practices and
                  > performances; much of the final video will consist of scenes staged
                  > exclusively for this project.
                  > I will attempt to enlist the aid of my fellow Scouts whenever
                  > possible. However, I must realistically consider the limitations
                  > imposed by school policies as well as distances of 45 minutes or
                  > greater from the Scouts' places of residence to the work site.
                  > Therefore, in many instances the primary workforce for this project
                  > must necessarily consist of members of the Black and Gold Brigade"
                  > Now what do I do? ....
                  >
                  > Clearly there is not a commitment to use Scouts. He also seems to
                  > identify himself as a band member strengthening the band helping band
                  > concern.
                  >
                  > In the mean time I have had calls from him, his mother and his
                  > Scoutmaster. His father is threatened to be next. I have consistently
                  > responded the "Band members cannot serve band members"and "service to
                  > others" is required.
                  >
                  > Phone arguments to date include
                  > 1) band members aren't helping themselves, but future band members
                  > 2) other councils haven't felt this way
                  > 3) we permit church helping the church as a service project
                  > 4) I am an Eagle and I ought to know.
                  >
                  > Ignoring 2) and 4) as silly, and I think I have argued my self past
                  > 1), I most seriously ponder 3). In my recollection we have never
                  > permitted such a thing, but have we, or would we? It seems any church
                  > service project that has been the basis for an Eagle project, has
                  > always served others outside the church.
                  >
                  > It seems that the central argument is service is, by definition, "to
                  > others". Scouts to Scouts, Church to Church and Band to Band, does not
                  > satisfy the "service to others". Scouts to Church, Scouts to Band,
                  > Church to Band does. I've attempted to obtain the definition of
                  > service from the (ESLSP) Workbook phamplet, seeking the "to others"
                  > context. The examples are consistent with "to others", but no
                  > defintion pops out. In your wide read view of this, do we have a
                  > resource to turn to? Is this the right tack?
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > For the record, the benefitting organization is the school's PTSA who
                  > sponsors the band. Any advice or reference help appreciated. Please
                  > respond ASAP as time is an issue in this case. Thanks
                  >
                  > Yours in Service to Scouting,
                  > -- Jim
                  > District Eagle Committee member
                  > Wood Badge SR-695 CD (2005)
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
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                  >
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                  >


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                • The Little's
                  I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say. They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say it is okay and they
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 17, 2011
                    I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say.
                    They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say
                    it is okay and they don't you will find the troop and the scout at ends.
                    They could also give you parameters to meet if they allow the project
                    idea. Little's
                  • Corinna Jones
                    In our council the district advancement chair and individuals selected by her approve Eagle projects. Corinna ... From: The Little s
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jul 18, 2011
                      In our council the district advancement chair and individuals selected by
                      her approve Eagle projects.
                      Corinna

                      --------------------------------------------------
                      From: "The Little's" <glittle@...>
                      Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:03 PM
                      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: HELP... Eagle Project Dilemma Urgent!

                      > I think it would be best to see what your Council office has to say.
                      > They are the ones who have to accept or reject the project. If you say
                      > it is okay and they don't you will find the troop and the scout at ends.
                      > They could also give you parameters to meet if they allow the project
                      > idea. Little's
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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