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Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

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  • G.J.
    I believe William Green Bar Bill Hillcourt said in the 1970s Scouting IS Outing. Sorry do not know when exactly he said it, but he did. Previously in the
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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      I believe William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt said in the 1970s "Scouting IS Outing." Sorry do not know when exactly he said it, but he did.

      Previously in the 3rd ed SM Handbook, Green Bar Bill wrote "Outing is three-fourths of Scouting." (NOTE: the quote in the current Boy Scout Handbook is incorrect. Outing is NOT two-thirds of Scouting, just do the math ;) )

      Green Bar Bill didn't say Boy Scouting, Sea Scouting, Explorer Scouting (at the time of the original quote) or Cub Scouting. He said SCOUTING, and that includes all programs. BP wanted us in the outdoors, and if you look at other Cub programs in WOSM, that is what they are doing.

      The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

      My pack has an active outdoor program, and one of my Cubs quit because we were not camping enough. Yep we 3 camp outs scheduled in the fall, and that was not enough for him and his family.

      As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.

      Jerry Judd
      District Committee
      Den Leader
    • Connie Knie
      In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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        In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age appropriate there will not be an issue of "been there done that". National has encouraged packs to go camping more and more with the creation of BALOO. We must keep these kids outdoors!!!
        As for leaders taking advanced training before their scouts are old enough to do the activities, as long as they don't try to implement their training by introducing outings that are not age appropriate or teach them skills they are not ready for I don't think it is an issue.

        Connie

        --- On Thu, 6/9/11, G.J. <gjjudd@...> wrote:
        The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

        As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Candace Lewis
        I took my group of cubscouts from Tigers to bridging them into boy scouts. As Tigers, Wolves and Bears, we went on three pack campouts per year. (one of those
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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          I took my group of cubscouts from Tigers to bridging them into boy scouts. As Tigers, Wolves and Bears, we went on three pack campouts per year. (one of those being a council event). We also went to numerous day events in the outdoors and Day camp each year. When the boys became Webelos, we went to Webelos resident camp ( 4 days) and the boys set the goal for themselves to camp out each month. The Webelos camped out most every month. They had a blast. Moreover they were ready to go into boy scouts and prepared for that first summer camp. We tried to make sure the activities were all age appropriate and worked on pins that could be done in the outdoors (i.e. outdoorsman, naturalist, forester etc.) We even had the forestry department come out and teach some of the pins. I think it is important for the boys to get outdoors as much as possible and as much as the leaders and parents are able. Kids today spend too much time indoors and the boys joined scouting to go outside, camp, shoot bb guns, archery etc.

          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connie Knie
          Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 10:55 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



          In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age appropriate there will not be an issue of "been there done that". National has encouraged packs to go camping more and more with the creation of BALOO. We must keep these kids outdoors!!!
          As for leaders taking advanced training before their scouts are old enough to do the activities, as long as they don't try to implement their training by introducing outings that are not age appropriate or teach them skills they are not ready for I don't think it is an issue.

          Connie

          --- On Thu, 6/9/11, G.J. <gjjudd@...<mailto:gjjudd%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
          The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

          As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • DSCaridi@aol.com
          I read the comments to my post re Annual Cub Campouts with great interest. My post did not suggest no camping for Cub Scouts. In my post, I stated, Cub
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 10, 2011
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            I read the comments to my post re Annual Cub Campouts with great interest. My post did not suggest no camping for Cub Scouts. In my post, I stated, "Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program -- a couple of Counicl-level dad (or mom) and lad capouts, a couple of pack family campouts and a Webelos-o-ree each year should be more than enough."


            I stand by that, I should pointout that when I said "outdoor program" I was referring to camping not activities that take place away from an indoor meeting place like a nature walk at the local park.

            I've been at this adult Scouting stuff for nearly 25-years and have thee Eagle Scout son that went thru the entire program. During my approx 10 years as Cub leader, my Pack had Fall and Spring Family Campouts; the 4th grade (rising 3rd graders) and 5th grade (rising 4th grade) WEBELOS attended the Council's week-long Summer Camp; the 4th grade Webelos attended the Fall Webelos-o-ree as day trippers and the 5th grade Webelos attended as campers. In addition, the Pack supported idividual family participation the Council-hosted Fall and Spring Dad-lad/Mom+me campouts, as well as frequent Den day trips (the last became more numerous as the boys moved thru the grades). In the Den of 12 boys, I and my co-leades brought 9 from Tiger Cubs thru Eagle -- that was our measure.

            However, with all that said, I still believe the Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program. Undertake an informal calculation using ALL the Cub Scout Handbooks: set-up four columns, title the first column activity, title the second column camping, title the third column not camping, title the fouth column hikes/visits -- calculate the relative proportions and then decide.

            The Cub Scout program is a "family directed program" much of the Cub Sout program takes place in the home and the Den. The program is aimed at helping the family guide a very young child into becoming a young child.


            -- Dominick Caridi
            Colonial District Vice Chair for Program and Training Chair
            NCAC BCOLS Coordinator
            NCAC Training Committee














            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • G.J.
            Dominick, First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong Cubs don t need to go camping attitude in my neck of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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              Dominick,


              First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.


              Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
            • Richard Damon
              ... I think the distinction being pointed out is that unlike the Boy Scout program (which really should be an outdoor program ), the Cub program is not BASED
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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                On 6/11/11 9:52 PM, G.J. wrote:
                >
                > Dominick,
                >
                > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There
                > is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck
                > of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very
                > frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who
                > should know better.
                >
                > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program
                > historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed
                > because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on
                > advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been
                > added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and
                > new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor
                > Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the
                > material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is
                > identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option
                > except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no
                > pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                >
                I think the distinction being pointed out is that unlike the Boy Scout
                program (which really should be an "outdoor program"), the Cub program
                is not BASED on outdoors. A good Cub program should use the outdoors,
                and take the boys hiking and camping, this aspect isn't woven into the
                core of the program. The mere fact that it IS possible to deliver a half
                way reasonable Cub program without doing much outdoor work (Webelos to
                earn the AOL need to do some things outdoor), shows that the outdoor is
                not a core feature of the Cub program. There are now parts that use the
                outdoors more than before, and packs should be using it in their
                program, but it isn't core.

                --
                Richard Damon
                Member of Committee, Troop 302 Arlington
                Pack Trainer, Pack 306 Arlington
                District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District. Boston Minuteman Council
                I used to be a Fox (NE-I-209) and a good ole staffer too (NE-I-234,
                NE-I-244, NE-I-258, NE-I-261, NE-I-268)
                | >>>>----------> |


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Lisa
                Times aren t changing so much here. Most packs in my district, maybe Council, just go to the dad and lad ones, now called Cub-Parent Weekend. There s a Webelos
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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                  Times aren't changing so much here. Most packs in my district, maybe Council, just go to the dad and lad ones, now called Cub-Parent Weekend. There's a Webelos Woods weekend in the spring, and a 3 night Webelos Resident Camp once a year. Our council doesn't want siblings camping so no pack family camping, except during July in a certain area of the campground. So complicated...

                  Lisa
                  Sent from my iPod

                  On Jun 11, 2011, at 9:52 PM, "G.J." <gjjudd@...> wrote:

                  > Dominick,
                  >
                  > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.
                  >
                  > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Art Sr
                  Sorry all, need to get my 2 cents worth please; It s not really about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it s very much about age specific
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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                    Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.

                    All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem with "transition".

                    The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive; Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking, in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are required, to be "trained"??

                    Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us need.

                    - Art Sr. from my iPad

                    On Jun 11, 2011, at 8:52 PM, "G.J." <gjjudd@...> wrote:

                    > Dominick,
                    >
                    > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.
                    >
                    > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gary Bogart
                    Really not sure why this is going on so long, but in our area Cubs camp all summer. We go as a pack 3 -4 times and then we have Cub Resident Camp for 4 nights
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 12, 2011
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                      Really not sure why this is going on so long, but in our area Cubs camp all
                      summer. We go as a pack 3 -4 times and then we have Cub Resident Camp for 4
                      nights and our council has Akela Cub campout and usually something else. Our
                      boys love camping and so do the parents. In fact, they are asking to winter
                      camp also since it is so hot here in the summer. I say, to each his own and
                      until National tells us otherwise, A camping we will go.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • bobbytoda
                      Art Sr, I think you ve made a very good point about the transition from cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part and if you
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                        Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                        cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                        and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                        being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                        for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                        Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                        additional hurdles.

                        I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                        for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                        attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                        checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                        course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                        Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                        didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                        mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                        who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                        there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                        different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                        our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                        parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                        the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                        holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                        if that would increase the number of registered leaders.


                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                        about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                        "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                        >
                        > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                        parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                        with "transition".
                        >
                        > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                        Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                        WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                        Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                        certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                        Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                        now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                        camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                        in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                        required, to be "trained"??
                        >
                        > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                        "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                        "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                        don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                        a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                        need.
                        >
                        > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                        >
                      • Charlie Hawes
                        How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond.  Here s my experience; I got involved
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                          How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond.  Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos.  I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers.  Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path.  Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs.  By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program.  To make a long story shorter - I instituted  "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                          By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be.  In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons.  We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained).  It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                          This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years.  I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                          Charlie Hawes
                          Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC


                          ________________________________
                          From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????


                           
                          Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                          cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                          and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                          being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                          for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                          Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                          additional hurdles.

                          I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                          for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                          attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                          checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                          course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                          Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                          didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                          mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                          who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                          there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                          different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                          our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                          parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                          the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                          holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                          if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                          about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                          "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                          >
                          > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                          parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                          with "transition".
                          >
                          > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                          Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                          WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                          Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                          certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                          Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                          now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                          camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                          in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                          required, to be "trained"??
                          >
                          > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                          "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                          "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                          don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                          a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                          need.
                          >
                          > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Hotmail Rod
                          Charlie, I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
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                            Charlie,

                            I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                            Rod

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                            How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                            By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                            This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                            Charlie Hawes
                            Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC


                            ________________________________
                            From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



                            Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                            cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                            and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                            being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                            for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                            Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                            additional hurdles.

                            I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                            for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                            attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                            checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                            course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                            Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                            didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                            mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                            who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                            there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                            different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                            our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                            parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                            the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                            holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                            if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                            about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                            "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                            >
                            > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                            parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                            with "transition".
                            >
                            > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                            Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                            WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                            Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                            certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                            Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                            now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                            camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                            in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                            required, to be "trained"??
                            >
                            > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                            "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                            "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                            don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                            a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                            need.
                            >
                            > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                          • Charlie Hawes
                            Rod , I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.   Charlie  
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Rod ,
                              I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.
                               
                              Charlie  



                              ________________________________
                              From: Hotmail Rod <owlelope@...>
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:39 PM
                              Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????


                               
                              Charlie,

                              I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                              Rod

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                              How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                              By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                              This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                              Charlie Hawes
                              Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC

                              ________________________________
                              From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                              Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                              cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                              and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                              being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                              for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                              Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                              additional hurdles.

                              I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                              for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                              attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                              checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                              course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                              Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                              didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                              mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                              who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                              there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                              different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                              our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                              parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                              the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                              holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                              if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                              about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                              "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                              >
                              > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                              parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                              with "transition".
                              >
                              > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                              Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                              WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                              Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                              certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                              Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                              now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                              camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                              in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                              required, to be "trained"??
                              >
                              > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                              "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                              "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                              don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                              a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                              need.
                              >
                              > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              ------------------------------------

                              For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                              scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                              Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Connie Knie
                              I would love to see the progression of  the Educating Parents plans as well if you have anything written up...... Connie   Educating the Parent program at
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I would love to see the progression of  the Educating Parents plans as well if you have anything written up......

                                Connie
                                  "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Hotmail Rod
                                Charlie, My mailing address is Rod Smith, 7250 CR 140, Findlay, Oh 45840. Let me know when you send it. Thanks for your help. Rod ... From:
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 14, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Charlie,

                                  My mailing address is Rod Smith, 7250 CR 140, Findlay, Oh 45840. Let me know when you send it.

                                  Thanks for your help.

                                  Rod

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:11 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                  Rod ,
                                  I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.

                                  Charlie



                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Hotmail Rod <owlelope@...>
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:39 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



                                  Charlie,

                                  I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                                  Rod

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                  How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                                  By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                                  This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                                  Charlie Hawes
                                  Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                  Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                  cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                  and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                  being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                  for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                  Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                  additional hurdles.

                                  I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                  for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                  attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                  checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                  course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                  Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                  didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                  mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                  who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                  there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                  different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                  our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                  parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                  the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                  holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                  if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                  about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                  "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                  >
                                  > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                  parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                  with "transition".
                                  >
                                  > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                  Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                  WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                  Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                  certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                  Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                  now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                  camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                  in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                  required, to be "trained"??
                                  >
                                  > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                  "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                  "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                  don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                  a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                  need.
                                  >
                                  > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                  >

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  ------------------------------------

                                  For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                  scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                                  Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  ------------------------------------

                                  For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                  scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

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                                • Gary Bogart
                                  Charlie, Being a Cub Master for 2 years and a former scout, I can see how this would be a great idea. I to would like to get the information and implement this
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 14, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Charlie, Being a Cub Master for 2 years and a former scout, I can see how
                                    this would be a great idea. I to would like to get the information and
                                    implement this training in our area. I can be contacted at
                                    gbogart@.... Thanks for sharing your knowledge and ideas.



                                    Gary



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