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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

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  • A. Dukovic
    Unfortunately, there s always the can t do that folks we ve got to deal with on a regular basis; BSA has very few can t but we ve got more than enough
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 5, 2011
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      Unfortunately, there's always the "can't do that" folks we've got to deal with on a regular basis; BSA has very few "can't" but we've got more than enough folks that are more than willing to create "bogus" rules for things they feel 

      need to be there, for our onw good??

      Basic guideline should be, is it good for the youth and will it be supported by the parents; if your answer is yes, then go for it!!

      Cub Scouts does not "promo" camping, but does allow it, but it's NOT what what their program is about and WEBELOS, Boy Scouts, and Venturing are; give 'em time, and they'll get there, with their parents.
       
      -Art

      From: Bill <bnelson45@...>
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2011 2:22 PM
      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????


       
      This is an easy question to answer, read the GTSS (such a restriction ain't there)

      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "david_eaker" <scouter@...> wrote:
      >
      > I attended trainers EDGE today. One of the participants stated that the GSS or some other source provides that a cub scout pack may ONLY camp as a pack twice per year (this excludes of course council or district events).
      >
      > This seems to make no sense and I had always understood and taught at baloo that packs should plan a MINIMUM of two camp outs per month.
      >
      > Does anyone have any information on this subject? Amy limit on appropriate camping trips seems counter to the BSA purpose.
      >
      > Thanks
      >
      > David
      > David@...
      >
      > ....I used to be a bear.
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Chad Cooper
      Indeed the restriction isn t there in G2SS. Asking to see it in writing is always the cure for those people. If the unit has a strong camping program, I
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 5, 2011
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        Indeed the restriction isn't there in G2SS. Asking to see it in writing
        is always the cure for those people. If the unit has a strong camping
        program, I would say "go for it!"

        However, I would encourage some contemplation on the topic of "BSA
        purpose." Think about the concept of ages-n-stages. In addition to
        ability levels (as "appropriate camping" was stipulated), consider the
        program levels.

        It would be a shame for the Cubs to graduate into the troops, look at
        the program and think "is this all there is? Meh. I've been there,
        done that. I'm going to go find something else fun to do." For Boy
        Scouts, camping is just the vehicle (or setting) for teaching skill,
        leadership, getting the boys out of the home setting and standing on
        their own two feet. The young Scouts don't realize this and it is part
        of the growing experience into the senior Scouting levels.

        If the boys are burnt-out on camping, it will make the troop's efforts
        that much more challenging. The Cub Scout leaders should be encouraged
        to see the whole program continuum.

        - Chad
        Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council

        On 6/5/11 2:22 PM, Bill wrote:
        >
        >
        > This is an easy question to answer, read the GTSS (such a restriction
        > ain't there)
        >
        > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > "david_eaker" <scouter@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I attended trainers EDGE today. One of the participants stated that
        > the GSS or some other source provides that a cub scout pack may ONLY
        > camp as a pack twice per year (this excludes of course council or
        > district events).
        > >
        > > This seems to make no sense and I had always understood and taught
        > at baloo that packs should plan a MINIMUM of two camp outs per month.
        > >
        > > Does anyone have any information on this subject? Amy limit on
        > appropriate camping trips seems counter to the BSA purpose.
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > David
        > > David@...
        > >
        > > ....I used to be a bear.
        > >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Michael Crothers
        Getting back at one of the original statements. Where in the BALOO syllabus does it say a Pack should camp twice a month? Yours In Scouting Mike Crothers
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 5, 2011
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          Getting back at one of the original statements.

          Where in the BALOO syllabus does it say a Pack should camp twice a month?


          Yours In Scouting



          Mike Crothers

          Council Training Committee Chair
          Tecumseh



          I used to be a good old Bob White NE-CS-11

          and a good old staffer too NE-CS-13

          and I used to be a good old Fox WE4-57-06

          --- On Sun, 6/5/11, Chad Cooper <chadc@...> wrote:

          From: Chad Cooper <chadc@...>
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, June 5, 2011, 2:10 PM
















           











          Indeed the restriction isn't there in G2SS. Asking to see it in writing

          is always the cure for those people. If the unit has a strong camping

          program, I would say "go for it!"



          However, I would encourage some contemplation on the topic of "BSA

          purpose." Think about the concept of ages-n-stages. In addition to

          ability levels (as "appropriate camping" was stipulated), consider the

          program levels.



          It would be a shame for the Cubs to graduate into the troops, look at

          the program and think "is this all there is? Meh. I've been there,

          done that. I'm going to go find something else fun to do." For Boy

          Scouts, camping is just the vehicle (or setting) for teaching skill,

          leadership, getting the boys out of the home setting and standing on

          their own two feet. The young Scouts don't realize this and it is part

          of the growing experience into the senior Scouting levels.



          If the boys are burnt-out on camping, it will make the troop's efforts

          that much more challenging. The Cub Scout leaders should be encouraged

          to see the whole program continuum.



          - Chad

          Chief Black Dog, Northern Star Council



          On 6/5/11 2:22 PM, Bill wrote:

          >

          >

          > This is an easy question to answer, read the GTSS (such a restriction

          > ain't there)

          >

          > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>,

          > "david_eaker" <scouter@...> wrote:

          > >

          > > I attended trainers EDGE today. One of the participants stated that

          > the GSS or some other source provides that a cub scout pack may ONLY

          > camp as a pack twice per year (this excludes of course council or

          > district events).

          > >

          > > This seems to make no sense and I had always understood and taught

          > at baloo that packs should plan a MINIMUM of two camp outs per month.

          > >

          > > Does anyone have any information on this subject? Amy limit on

          > appropriate camping trips seems counter to the BSA purpose.

          > >

          > > Thanks

          > >

          > > David

          > > David@...

          > >

          > > ....I used to be a bear.

          > >

          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ftooth
          Nowhere. It doesn t say that.  Boy Scout troops rarely even camp out twice a month. Frank ...   Getting back at one of the original statements. Where in the
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 5, 2011
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            Nowhere. It doesn't say that. 
            Boy Scout troops rarely even camp out twice a month.
            Frank

            --- On Sun, 6/5/11, Michael Crothers <dowrightbw@...> wrote:


             



            Getting back at one of the original statements.

            Where in the BALOO syllabus does it say a Pack should camp twice a month?

            Yours In Scouting

            Mike Crothers

            Council Training Committee Chair
            Tecumseh

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jamie Niss Dunn
            ... I went back and refreshed my memory by consulting the syllabus. It does not address the frequency of pack camping. Nor does the Guide to Safe Scouting, the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 5, 2011
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              >Where in the BALOO syllabus does it say a Pack should camp twice a month?



              I went back and refreshed my memory by consulting the syllabus. It does not address the frequency of pack camping. Nor does the Guide to Safe Scouting, the Den and Pack Meeting Resource guide or the Cub Scout Leader Book AFAIK.

              Twice a month seems ambitious - unless you are counting Webelos Den campouts as part of the pack program. Even then it seems a lot.

              The majority of packs I am familiar with camp once or twice a year. I would thnk that the frequency of pack camping is going to depend on leader support and availability, the pack budget, the needs and wishes of the families in the pack, the availability of facilities, and a number of other factors. Every pack will decide on its own the features of its pack program, including enough camping to prepare the Cub Scouts and their parents for Boy Scouting and whet their appetites for adventures to come.



              Jamie Niss Dunn
              Pack Trainer, Pack 512
              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
              Troop Committee, Troop 509
              Ham Lake, MN
              Secretary, Crew 849
              Coon Rapids, MN
              Cub Scout Training Coordinator
              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
              Three Rivers District



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Staci Kilpatrick
              When I train, Cub Scout Leaders in particular, I find that the leaders confuse the rules/limitations from their Chartering Organization and Pack By-Laws with
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 6, 2011
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                When I train, Cub Scout Leaders in particular, I find that the leaders confuse
                the rules/limitations from their Chartering Organization and Pack By-Laws with
                rules from National and Guide to Safe Scouting.   I wonder if that is not what
                is happening with this person.

                However, 2 campouts per month is not recommended.  It is a bit of an overload
                for young Scouts and their parents to have to cope with along with school, life,
                birthday parties, sports, etc.  The long-term issue with this many campouts is
                that the Scout typically does not continue far into Boy Scouts due to the "been
                there - done that" feeling of I have been to all these sites so often that it
                isn't any fun.

                Additionally, one issue with this thought pattern - LDS Cub Scout Packs do not
                typically camp out until they are in the 11-year old program.


                YIS, Staci




                ________________________________
                From: david_eaker <scouter@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sun, June 5, 2011 2:28:02 AM
                Subject: [Scouter_T] Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                 
                I attended trainers EDGE today. One of the participants stated that the GSS or
                some other source provides that a cub scout pack may ONLY camp as a pack twice
                per year (this excludes of course council or district events).


                This seems to make no sense and I had always understood and taught at baloo that
                packs should plan a MINIMUM of two camp outs per month.


                Does anyone have any information on this subject? Amy limit on appropriate
                camping trips seems counter to the BSA purpose.


                Thanks

                David
                David@...

                ....I used to be a bear.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • gerrymoon32817
                Our council camp provides plenty of opportunities for Cubs to camp, including Fun With Son weekends and in the fall, three or four Halloween weekends and a
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 6, 2011
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                  Our council camp provides plenty of opportunities for Cubs to camp, including Fun With Son weekends and in the fall, three or four Halloween weekends and a couple holiday weekends. In the spring there are others - these, plus the district's annual Cub Family Campout (a district-wide event) provide every Cub family an opportunity to get out into the woods at least once or twice a year. Some packs don't have the wherewith-all to camp independently, so the council camp fills that need nicely. Individual families can register so there isn't a unit commitment needed to take advantage of the opportunities. The sheer thought of two Pack Campouts a month is, IMHO, ludicrous.

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Staci Kilpatrick <staci_30@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > When I train, Cub Scout Leaders in particular, I find that the leaders confuse
                  > the rules/limitations from their Chartering Organization and Pack By-Laws with
                  > rules from National and Guide to Safe Scouting.   I wonder if that is not what
                  > is happening with this person.
                  >
                  > However, 2 campouts per month is not recommended.  It is a bit of an overload
                  > for young Scouts and their parents to have to cope with along with school, life,
                  > birthday parties, sports, etc.  The long-term issue with this many campouts is
                  > that the Scout typically does not continue far into Boy Scouts due to the "been
                  > there - done that" feeling of I have been to all these sites so often that it
                  > isn't any fun.
                  >
                  > Additionally, one issue with this thought pattern - LDS Cub Scout Packs do not
                  > typically camp out until they are in the 11-year old program.
                  >
                  >
                  > YIS, Staci
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: david_eaker <scouter@...>
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sun, June 5, 2011 2:28:02 AM
                  > Subject: [Scouter_T] Limit on number of annual pack campouts????
                  >
                  >  
                  > I attended trainers EDGE today. One of the participants stated that the GSS or
                  > some other source provides that a cub scout pack may ONLY camp as a pack twice
                  > per year (this excludes of course council or district events).
                  >
                  >
                  > This seems to make no sense and I had always understood and taught at baloo that
                  > packs should plan a MINIMUM of two camp outs per month.
                  >
                  >
                  > Does anyone have any information on this subject? Amy limit on appropriate
                  > camping trips seems counter to the BSA purpose.
                  >
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  >
                  > David
                  > David@...
                  >
                  > ....I used to be a bear.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • DSCaridi@aol.com
                  For the life of me I can t understand why leaders can t stick with their programs: Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program -- a couple of Counicl-level
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 7, 2011
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                    For the life of me I can't understand why leaders can't stick with their programs: Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program -- a couple of Counicl-level dad (or mom) and lad capouts, a couple of pack family campouts and a Webelos-o-ree each year should be more than enough.\

                    Me thinks adults want a program that meets THEIR needs not the needs of the "Ages and Stages" of the youth with which they are working.

                    I've seen this propensity over and over again -- Cub Scout leaders signing up to take Powder Horn BEFORE they've taken Wood Badge; in the NCAC we offer Back Country Outdoor Leader Skills (a course designed for adults working with Venturing aged youth regardless of program), the course is aimed at providing skills for treks to back country areas not supported by the BSA ssfety net; every course I have Cub Leaders signing up for the course -- the more honest report that their lookiing for someting ne to bring their Cubs.

                    This kind of performance has got to stop....stop relying on the sea-lawyers reading the GSS and start using some prudent judgment.

                    -- Dominick Caridi
                    Colonial District Vice Chair for Program and Training Chair
                    NCAC BCOLS Coordinator
                    NCAC Training Committee






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Mark Huber
                    The statement Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program is not entirely accurate. It is indeed an outdoor program. A quick look at the Age Appropriate
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 8, 2011
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                      The statement "Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program" is not entirely accurate. It is indeed an outdoor program. A quick look at the Age Appropriate Guidelines in G2SS shows how to do it right. Even at the Tiger level, Day Camps, Pack Overnighters and Family Camping are ALL listed as approved.

                      As Dominick correctly states, "Ages and Stages" is how the program is designed to be implemented. One of purposes of Cub Scouting is to prepare them for Boy Scouts; if we never take them camping, then we are not preparing them.

                      Our Pack has been successful with the following model:
                      - Tigers: Day trips, such as short hikes.
                      - Cubs: Overnight cabin camping with the pack; 3-day/2-nite Council resident camp in the summer
                      - Webelos: Overnight tent camping with the Pack and/or Den; 5-day/4-nite Council resident camp in the summer

                      We offer 1-2 camping experiences per year (maybe 3 for Webelos 2). In this way, we ease them (and their Parents) into camping without overwhelming them. Each year brings new challenges and experiences. They cross over into Boy Scouts prepared for what they will be experiencing.

                      And by the way, we always have 90-100% of our Webelos cross over to Boy Scouts EVERY year.


                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, DSCaridi@... wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > For the life of me I can't understand why leaders can't stick with their programs: Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program -- a couple of Counicl-level dad (or mom) and lad capouts, a couple of pack family campouts and a Webelos-o-ree each year should be more than enough.\
                      >
                      > Me thinks adults want a program that meets THEIR needs not the needs of the "Ages and Stages" of the youth with which they are working.
                      >
                      > I've seen this propensity over and over again -- Cub Scout leaders signing up to take Powder Horn BEFORE they've taken Wood Badge; in the NCAC we offer Back Country Outdoor Leader Skills (a course designed for adults working with Venturing aged youth regardless of program), the course is aimed at providing skills for treks to back country areas not supported by the BSA ssfety net; every course I have Cub Leaders signing up for the course -- the more honest report that their lookiing for someting ne to bring their Cubs.
                      >
                      > This kind of performance has got to stop....stop relying on the sea-lawyers reading the GSS and start using some prudent judgment.
                      >
                      > -- Dominick Caridi
                      > Colonial District Vice Chair for Program and Training Chair
                      > NCAC BCOLS Coordinator
                      > NCAC Training Committee
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • G.J.
                      I believe William Green Bar Bill Hillcourt said in the 1970s Scouting IS Outing. Sorry do not know when exactly he said it, but he did. Previously in the
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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                        I believe William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt said in the 1970s "Scouting IS Outing." Sorry do not know when exactly he said it, but he did.

                        Previously in the 3rd ed SM Handbook, Green Bar Bill wrote "Outing is three-fourths of Scouting." (NOTE: the quote in the current Boy Scout Handbook is incorrect. Outing is NOT two-thirds of Scouting, just do the math ;) )

                        Green Bar Bill didn't say Boy Scouting, Sea Scouting, Explorer Scouting (at the time of the original quote) or Cub Scouting. He said SCOUTING, and that includes all programs. BP wanted us in the outdoors, and if you look at other Cub programs in WOSM, that is what they are doing.

                        The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

                        My pack has an active outdoor program, and one of my Cubs quit because we were not camping enough. Yep we 3 camp outs scheduled in the fall, and that was not enough for him and his family.

                        As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.

                        Jerry Judd
                        District Committee
                        Den Leader
                      • Connie Knie
                        In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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                          In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age appropriate there will not be an issue of "been there done that". National has encouraged packs to go camping more and more with the creation of BALOO. We must keep these kids outdoors!!!
                          As for leaders taking advanced training before their scouts are old enough to do the activities, as long as they don't try to implement their training by introducing outings that are not age appropriate or teach them skills they are not ready for I don't think it is an issue.

                          Connie

                          --- On Thu, 6/9/11, G.J. <gjjudd@...> wrote:
                          The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

                          As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Candace Lewis
                          I took my group of cubscouts from Tigers to bridging them into boy scouts. As Tigers, Wolves and Bears, we went on three pack campouts per year. (one of those
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 9, 2011
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                            I took my group of cubscouts from Tigers to bridging them into boy scouts. As Tigers, Wolves and Bears, we went on three pack campouts per year. (one of those being a council event). We also went to numerous day events in the outdoors and Day camp each year. When the boys became Webelos, we went to Webelos resident camp ( 4 days) and the boys set the goal for themselves to camp out each month. The Webelos camped out most every month. They had a blast. Moreover they were ready to go into boy scouts and prepared for that first summer camp. We tried to make sure the activities were all age appropriate and worked on pins that could be done in the outdoors (i.e. outdoorsman, naturalist, forester etc.) We even had the forestry department come out and teach some of the pins. I think it is important for the boys to get outdoors as much as possible and as much as the leaders and parents are able. Kids today spend too much time indoors and the boys joined scouting to go outside, camp, shoot bb guns, archery etc.

                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Connie Knie
                            Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 10:55 AM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



                            In my opinion a Cub Scout pack should have as many campouts as the parents will allow!! I am a firm believer that if the program is kept dynamic and age appropriate there will not be an issue of "been there done that". National has encouraged packs to go camping more and more with the creation of BALOO. We must keep these kids outdoors!!!
                            As for leaders taking advanced training before their scouts are old enough to do the activities, as long as they don't try to implement their training by introducing outings that are not age appropriate or teach them skills they are not ready for I don't think it is an issue.

                            Connie

                            --- On Thu, 6/9/11, G.J. <gjjudd@...<mailto:gjjudd%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                            The days of "Cubs don't need to camp" are gone. There are age appropriate activities for them in the outdoors and those activities do include camping. We need to get them in the outdoors because the Cubs want it that way. They don't want to be in meetings doing crafts. They want to camp, and play, and be in the outdoors.

                            As for folks getting training that they currently don't need, I don't see a problem with it. Once they complete the basic training requirements, let them take the courses that they are capable of taking. I wish I would have taken some of the advance training courses when I was younger and had the time. Now I have a bunch of things and don't have time.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • DSCaridi@aol.com
                            I read the comments to my post re Annual Cub Campouts with great interest. My post did not suggest no camping for Cub Scouts. In my post, I stated, Cub
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 10, 2011
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                              I read the comments to my post re Annual Cub Campouts with great interest. My post did not suggest no camping for Cub Scouts. In my post, I stated, "Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program -- a couple of Counicl-level dad (or mom) and lad capouts, a couple of pack family campouts and a Webelos-o-ree each year should be more than enough."


                              I stand by that, I should pointout that when I said "outdoor program" I was referring to camping not activities that take place away from an indoor meeting place like a nature walk at the local park.

                              I've been at this adult Scouting stuff for nearly 25-years and have thee Eagle Scout son that went thru the entire program. During my approx 10 years as Cub leader, my Pack had Fall and Spring Family Campouts; the 4th grade (rising 3rd graders) and 5th grade (rising 4th grade) WEBELOS attended the Council's week-long Summer Camp; the 4th grade Webelos attended the Fall Webelos-o-ree as day trippers and the 5th grade Webelos attended as campers. In addition, the Pack supported idividual family participation the Council-hosted Fall and Spring Dad-lad/Mom+me campouts, as well as frequent Den day trips (the last became more numerous as the boys moved thru the grades). In the Den of 12 boys, I and my co-leades brought 9 from Tiger Cubs thru Eagle -- that was our measure.

                              However, with all that said, I still believe the Cub Scout Program is NOT an outdoor program. Undertake an informal calculation using ALL the Cub Scout Handbooks: set-up four columns, title the first column activity, title the second column camping, title the third column not camping, title the fouth column hikes/visits -- calculate the relative proportions and then decide.

                              The Cub Scout program is a "family directed program" much of the Cub Sout program takes place in the home and the Den. The program is aimed at helping the family guide a very young child into becoming a young child.


                              -- Dominick Caridi
                              Colonial District Vice Chair for Program and Training Chair
                              NCAC BCOLS Coordinator
                              NCAC Training Committee














                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • G.J.
                              Dominick, First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong Cubs don t need to go camping attitude in my neck of the
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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                                Dominick,


                                First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.


                                Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                              • Richard Damon
                                ... I think the distinction being pointed out is that unlike the Boy Scout program (which really should be an outdoor program ), the Cub program is not BASED
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
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                                  On 6/11/11 9:52 PM, G.J. wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dominick,
                                  >
                                  > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There
                                  > is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck
                                  > of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very
                                  > frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who
                                  > should know better.
                                  >
                                  > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program
                                  > historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed
                                  > because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on
                                  > advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been
                                  > added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and
                                  > new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor
                                  > Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the
                                  > material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is
                                  > identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option
                                  > except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no
                                  > pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                                  >
                                  I think the distinction being pointed out is that unlike the Boy Scout
                                  program (which really should be an "outdoor program"), the Cub program
                                  is not BASED on outdoors. A good Cub program should use the outdoors,
                                  and take the boys hiking and camping, this aspect isn't woven into the
                                  core of the program. The mere fact that it IS possible to deliver a half
                                  way reasonable Cub program without doing much outdoor work (Webelos to
                                  earn the AOL need to do some things outdoor), shows that the outdoor is
                                  not a core feature of the Cub program. There are now parts that use the
                                  outdoors more than before, and packs should be using it in their
                                  program, but it isn't core.

                                  --
                                  Richard Damon
                                  Member of Committee, Troop 302 Arlington
                                  Pack Trainer, Pack 306 Arlington
                                  District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District. Boston Minuteman Council
                                  I used to be a Fox (NE-I-209) and a good ole staffer too (NE-I-234,
                                  NE-I-244, NE-I-258, NE-I-261, NE-I-268)
                                  | >>>>----------> |


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Lisa
                                  Times aren t changing so much here. Most packs in my district, maybe Council, just go to the dad and lad ones, now called Cub-Parent Weekend. There s a Webelos
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Times aren't changing so much here. Most packs in my district, maybe Council, just go to the dad and lad ones, now called Cub-Parent Weekend. There's a Webelos Woods weekend in the spring, and a 3 night Webelos Resident Camp once a year. Our council doesn't want siblings camping so no pack family camping, except during July in a certain area of the campground. So complicated...

                                    Lisa
                                    Sent from my iPod

                                    On Jun 11, 2011, at 9:52 PM, "G.J." <gjjudd@...> wrote:

                                    > Dominick,
                                    >
                                    > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.
                                    >
                                    > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Art Sr
                                    Sorry all, need to get my 2 cents worth please; It s not really about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it s very much about age specific
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 11, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.

                                      All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem with "transition".

                                      The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive; Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking, in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are required, to be "trained"??

                                      Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us need.

                                      - Art Sr. from my iPad

                                      On Jun 11, 2011, at 8:52 PM, "G.J." <gjjudd@...> wrote:

                                      > Dominick,
                                      >
                                      > First off, my apologies if I read to much into your statement. There is a very strong "Cubs don't need to go camping" attitude in my neck of the woods. Fortunately that is slowly changing, but it can be very frustrating dealing with that attitude, especially from folks who should know better.
                                      >
                                      > Yes ages and stages is important, and yes the Cub Scout program historically has not been an outdoor program. But that has changed because the Cub age kids WANT camping. While the emphasis on advancement is mostly kids being kids, some outdoor elements have been added to it. Packs are now encouraged to camp as much as possible, and new awards have been create to get the cubs outdoors: CS Outdoor Activity and CS Leave No Trace are two of them. While alot of the material my oldest has done as a Wolf, and will do as a Bear is identical to what I did back in the day, the outdoors wasn't an option except "Dad and Lad weekend" and as a Webelos. No CS resident camp, no pack campouts. No Outdoor Award. So times are a changin.
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Gary Bogart
                                      Really not sure why this is going on so long, but in our area Cubs camp all summer. We go as a pack 3 -4 times and then we have Cub Resident Camp for 4 nights
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 12, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Really not sure why this is going on so long, but in our area Cubs camp all
                                        summer. We go as a pack 3 -4 times and then we have Cub Resident Camp for 4
                                        nights and our council has Akela Cub campout and usually something else. Our
                                        boys love camping and so do the parents. In fact, they are asking to winter
                                        camp also since it is so hot here in the summer. I say, to each his own and
                                        until National tells us otherwise, A camping we will go.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • bobbytoda
                                        Art Sr, I think you ve made a very good point about the transition from cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part and if you
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                          cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                          and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                          being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                          for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                          Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                          additional hurdles.

                                          I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                          for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                          attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                          checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                          course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                          Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                          didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                          mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                          who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                          there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                          different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                          our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                          parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                          the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                          holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                          if that would increase the number of registered leaders.


                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                          about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                          "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                          >
                                          > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                          parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                          with "transition".
                                          >
                                          > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                          Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                          WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                          Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                          certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                          Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                          now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                          camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                          in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                          required, to be "trained"??
                                          >
                                          > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                          "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                          "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                          don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                          a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                          need.
                                          >
                                          > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                          >
                                        • Charlie Hawes
                                          How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond.  Here s my experience; I got involved
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond.  Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos.  I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers.  Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path.  Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs.  By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program.  To make a long story shorter - I instituted  "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                                            By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be.  In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons.  We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained).  It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                                            This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years.  I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                                            Charlie Hawes
                                            Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC


                                            ________________________________
                                            From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????


                                             
                                            Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                            cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                            and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                            being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                            for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                            Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                            additional hurdles.

                                            I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                            for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                            attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                            checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                            course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                            Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                            didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                            mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                            who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                            there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                            different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                            our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                            parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                            the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                            holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                            if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                            about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                            "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                            >
                                            > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                            parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                            with "transition".
                                            >
                                            > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                            Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                            WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                            Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                            certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                            Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                            now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                            camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                            in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                            required, to be "trained"??
                                            >
                                            > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                            "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                            "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                            don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                            a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                            need.
                                            >
                                            > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                            >



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Hotmail Rod
                                            Charlie, I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Charlie,

                                              I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                                              Rod

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                              How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                                              By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                                              This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                                              Charlie Hawes
                                              Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC


                                              ________________________________
                                              From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



                                              Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                              cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                              and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                              being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                              for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                              Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                              additional hurdles.

                                              I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                              for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                              attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                              checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                              course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                              Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                              didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                              mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                              who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                              there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                              different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                              our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                              parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                              the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                              holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                              if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                              about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                              "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                              >
                                              > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                              parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                              with "transition".
                                              >
                                              > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                              Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                              WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                              Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                              certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                              Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                              now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                              camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                              in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                              required, to be "trained"??
                                              >
                                              > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                              "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                              "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                              don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                              a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                              need.
                                              >
                                              > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                              >



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                              ------------------------------------

                                              For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                              scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                                              Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            • Charlie Hawes
                                              Rod , I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.   Charlie  
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Rod ,
                                                I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.
                                                 
                                                Charlie  



                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Hotmail Rod <owlelope@...>
                                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:39 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????


                                                 
                                                Charlie,

                                                I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                                                Rod

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                                How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                                                By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                                                This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                                                Charlie Hawes
                                                Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC

                                                ________________________________
                                                From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                                Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                                cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                                and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                                being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                                for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                                Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                                additional hurdles.

                                                I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                                for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                                attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                                checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                                course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                                Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                                didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                                mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                                who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                                there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                                different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                                our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                                parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                                the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                                holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                                if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                                about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                                "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                                >
                                                > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                                parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                                with "transition".
                                                >
                                                > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                                Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                                WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                                Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                                certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                                Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                                now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                                camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                                in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                                required, to be "trained"??
                                                >
                                                > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                                "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                                "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                                don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                                a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                                need.
                                                >
                                                > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                                >

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                ------------------------------------

                                                For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                                scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

                                                Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Connie Knie
                                                I would love to see the progression of  the Educating Parents plans as well if you have anything written up...... Connie   Educating the Parent program at
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jun 13, 2011
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  I would love to see the progression of  the Educating Parents plans as well if you have anything written up......

                                                  Connie
                                                    "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.




                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Hotmail Rod
                                                  Charlie, My mailing address is Rod Smith, 7250 CR 140, Findlay, Oh 45840. Let me know when you send it. Thanks for your help. Rod ... From:
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jun 14, 2011
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Charlie,

                                                    My mailing address is Rod Smith, 7250 CR 140, Findlay, Oh 45840. Let me know when you send it.

                                                    Thanks for your help.

                                                    Rod

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                                    Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:11 PM
                                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                                    Rod ,
                                                    I will need to get to my Cub Trainer - send me the mailing information and we see about getting you the material.

                                                    Charlie



                                                    ________________________________
                                                    From: Hotmail Rod <owlelope@...>
                                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:39 PM
                                                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????



                                                    Charlie,

                                                    I like your idea. I think it could be a big help in Boy Scout recruiting and retention in the Cub Scouting program. Do you have any information that you could make available that would help put this in place in my district.

                                                    Rod

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Hawes
                                                    Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 3:34 PM
                                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                                    How can we keep the interest of the parent in the scouting program while they are in the Cub Scout stages and beyond. Here's my experience; I got involved with the Pack - became Cub Master and watched my son go through Webelos. I tried to stay out of his way and in doing so I got a chance to interact with the parents of the Webelos and was able to get some great pointers. Most of the parents were ignorant of what their sons were doing outside of the award portion of their scouting path. Most had little idea of what we were teaching their sons as they progressed through each level of Cubs. By the time they got to Webelos, the parents became aware that we were preparing them to cross over to the Boy Scout program. To make a long story shorter - I instituted "Educating the Parent"program at each level of Cubs. We were able to keep the parents interested by keeping the education process germane to their sons level in Cubs.

                                                    By the time their son reached Webelos they were ready for the camping experience, and well aware of what the scouting experience should be. In most cases, the parents were pro-active in our program and was ready to cross over with their sons. We had fun and so did the parents - we got new leaders and new ideas every scouting year - the Boy Scout program was happy because they got new leaders with the boys (in most cases almost fully trained). It makes sense to educate the parent and let them know what they can do to encourage their son to continue through Eagle Scout, and what it means to share in the experience.

                                                    This was a long time ago - I have been in scouting 25 plus years. I have kept this alive and we are doing it in our district today.

                                                    Charlie Hawes
                                                    Sweetwater District Trainer, ADC

                                                    ________________________________
                                                    From: bobbytoda <BobbyToda@...>
                                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 11:57 AM
                                                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Limit on number of annual pack campouts????

                                                    Art Sr, I think you've made a very good point about the transition from
                                                    cubs to boy scouts. Webelos begins to prepare you for the camping part
                                                    and if you remember, Webelos is the only den that can camp without it
                                                    being a pack event. The Outdoor Webelos course is not a pre-requisite
                                                    for Webelos to camp and I can only guess that this is to make sure
                                                    Webelos can achieve their overnight camping requirement without
                                                    additional hurdles.

                                                    I'm a council chair and each year, we have a large IOLS (around 60+)
                                                    for our ESL Chinese adults and at first, I noticed that 1/3 of the
                                                    attendees weren't registered. This happens consistently so when I
                                                    checked into it, I found out that there were a lot of adults taking the
                                                    course that wanted to experience what their sons would be experiencing.
                                                    Most were from large cities and they never had the chance to camp and
                                                    didn't understand what was involved, except for the men who had
                                                    mandatory military service. I also learned that several of the women
                                                    who attended were or became assistant scoutmasters and every few years,
                                                    there would be at least one or two female scoutmasters, which is quite
                                                    different from the normal demographics in our council. I've changed
                                                    our IOLS flyers to make it clear that the course is open to scouters AND
                                                    parents. Who knows? Some may become volunteers after they've learned
                                                    the basics and experience what camping offers. I've even toyed with
                                                    holding an Introduction To Camping course for newbie parents just to see
                                                    if that would increase the number of registered leaders.

                                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Art Sr <artdukovic@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Sorry all, need to get my "2 cents worth" please; It's not really
                                                    about Cob Scouts NOT being able to camp, I think it's very much about
                                                    "age specific" adventures for both the boy AND their parents.
                                                    >
                                                    > All the comments made sense, but we're all tryin to keep youth & their
                                                    parents in the program and it seems nationally, we've all got a problem
                                                    with "transition".
                                                    >
                                                    > The sentiment is that if Cub Scouts are doing everything that Boy
                                                    Scouts are doing, what's the "carrot on the stick" for them to become
                                                    WEBELOS or Boy Scouts folks?? Food for thought; it's the same reason the
                                                    Guide For Safe Scouting is "program specific" on what ages boys can do
                                                    certain activities and is based on the training that leaders receive;
                                                    Cub Scout leaders can now take the majority of their training on-line
                                                    now, and only a single member of the Pack requires BALOO training to go
                                                    camping, so national doesn't encourage Cub Scout leaders, I'm thinking,
                                                    in an non-outdoor focused program as Boy Scout leaders (OLSC) are
                                                    required, to be "trained"??
                                                    >
                                                    > Remember that Cub Scout boys aren't the only ones new to the
                                                    "program", many of their parents are as well, and you don't want to
                                                    "burn them out" too early or let them have bad experiences because they
                                                    don't really know what they're doing?? If you're NOT a camper, "livin in
                                                    a tent" can be a real turn-off for some and that's NOT what any of us
                                                    need.
                                                    >
                                                    > - Art Sr. from my iPad
                                                    >

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                                                  • Gary Bogart
                                                    Charlie, Being a Cub Master for 2 years and a former scout, I can see how this would be a great idea. I to would like to get the information and implement this
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Jun 14, 2011
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Charlie, Being a Cub Master for 2 years and a former scout, I can see how
                                                      this would be a great idea. I to would like to get the information and
                                                      implement this training in our area. I can be contacted at
                                                      gbogart@.... Thanks for sharing your knowledge and ideas.



                                                      Gary



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