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Re: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership Training

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  • Scouter Chuck
    Hey Folks: The following is from a friend of mine (WB Patrol Mate), who was involved in corporate affairs for most of his career. He had some insights on WB
    Message 1 of 13 , May 5, 2011
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      Hey Folks:

      The following is from a friend of mine (WB Patrol Mate), who was
      involved in corporate affairs for most of his career. He had
      some insights on WB after we went thru, so I passed the question
      on to him for his opinion.

      Here is his reply.

      > Leadership is leadership. It involves the most precious of human
      > interactions: Trust. Without trust, no leadership.
      >
      > I don’t think it’s coincidence that the Twelve starts with
      > “Trustworthy”. If you don’t trust your boss or fellow workers,
      > you will always hold back some element of cooperation or
      > dedication. Most leadership programs I’ve seen/read concentrate
      > on planning processes, resources, etc. They do these considered
      > debates on “is leadership learned or only ‘natural’?”
      >
      > They usually conclude that it can be learned, but they are absent
      > on details of how you learn it (usually, buying a particular
      > author’s book on leadership is recommended!). Trust is purchased
      > with only one coin: trust in return.
      >
      > Most people cannot change their basic nature, and most people
      > cannot be trusted to do right by others; they pretty much watch
      > out for #1, although they are often confused about just where
      > that leads.
      >
      > The military has learned to exercise trust circumstances
      > repeatedly, and can be effective in small units where people
      > really live in each other’s pockets. Beyond that narrow range,
      > they pretty much look out for #1 again.
      >
      > Commercial relationships and competition can be difficult
      > environments to foster trust, and hence leadership is usually
      > wanting.
      >
      > Read Dilbert. All is revealed.

      So there you have it. :D

      YiS,

      Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
      I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
      Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
      District Committee Member at Large
      -------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
      -- Stephen R. Covey
      -------------------------------------------------------------------
    • Samuel Harley
      The underlying theme for NYLT is BE - KNOW - DO . The BE of leadership is who we are, our values, our vision, making ethical decisions,.... It s our
      Message 2 of 13 , May 5, 2011
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        The underlying theme for NYLT is "BE - KNOW - DO".

        The 'BE' of leadership is who we are, our values, our vision, making ethical
        decisions,.... It's our religious beliefs and our ethical core. The conjugation
        of "to be" includes the indicative form 'is'. The Scout Law (A Scout IS
        trustworthy, loyal, ...) defines to a large extent the 'BE' of "BE - KNOW -
        DO".

        The 'KNOW' of leadership embodies the skills of leadership - planning,
        communicating, setting visions, establishing goals, problem solving, .... These
        are the skills that participants can learn. This is where leaders can always
        grow, always learn more.

        The 'DO' of leadership is action based on values and knowledge. It's 'BE' and
        'KNOW' translated into action.

        Leadership based "KNOW' alone is empty. Effective leadership takes all three.


        YISAIB

        Sam Harley
        Dr. Samuel F. Harley, PhD
        Harley Science and Technology, Inc




        ________________________________
        From: Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...>
        To: sctr-t <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, May 5, 2011 4:30:31 AM
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership Training


        Hey Folks:

        The following is from a friend of mine (WB Patrol Mate), who was
        involved in corporate affairs for most of his career. He had
        some insights on WB after we went thru, so I passed the question
        on to him for his opinion.

        Here is his reply.

        > Leadership is leadership. It involves the most precious of human
        > interactions: Trust. Without trust, no leadership.
        >
        > I don’t think it’s coincidence that the Twelve starts with
        > “Trustworthy”. If you don’t trust your boss or fellow workers,
        > you will always hold back some element of cooperation or
        > dedication. Most leadership programs I’ve seen/read concentrate
        > on planning processes, resources, etc. They do these considered
        > debates on “is leadership learned or only ‘natural’?”
        >
        > They usually conclude that it can be learned, but they are absent
        > on details of how you learn it (usually, buying a particular
        > author’s book on leadership is recommended!). Trust is purchased
        > with only one coin: trust in return.
        >
        > Most people cannot change their basic nature, and most people
        > cannot be trusted to do right by others; they pretty much watch
        > out for #1, although they are often confused about just where
        > that leads.
        >
        > The military has learned to exercise trust circumstances
        > repeatedly, and can be effective in small units where people
        > really live in each other’s pockets. Beyond that narrow range,
        > they pretty much look out for #1 again.
        >
        > Commercial relationships and competition can be difficult
        > environments to foster trust, and hence leadership is usually
        > wanting.
        >
        > Read Dilbert. All is revealed.

        So there you have it. :D

        YiS,

        Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
        I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
        Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
        District Committee Member at Large
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
        -- Stephen R. Covey
        ----------------------------------------------------------



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MichaelB
        ... Be-Know-Do isn t a corporate leadership concept. It actually comes from the US Army. there are a couble of resources for those wanting to know more about
        Message 3 of 13 , May 6, 2011
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          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Harley <samuelharley@...> wrote:
          >
          > The underlying theme for NYLT is "BE - KNOW - DO".
          >


          Be-Know-Do isn't a corporate leadership concept.

          It actually comes from the US Army.

          there are a couble of resources for those wanting to know more about it.

          "The U.S. Army Leadership Field Manual" is the work by the Leadership Center for the Army which coveres this concept. Its available from McGraw-Hill.

          "Be * Know * Do, Adapted from the Official Army Leadership Manual: Leadership the Army Way" is a work aimed to introduce business leaders to the concept by the Leader to Leader Institute/Peter Drucker Foundation.


          Michael Brown
        • Samuel Harley
          The Army Field Manual FM 6-22 is available at https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/Repository/Materials/fm6-22.pdf&pli=1 and is worth
          Message 4 of 13 , May 6, 2011
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            The Army Field Manual FM 6-22 is available at

            https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/Repository/Materials/fm6-22.pdf&pli=1


            and is worth a look.

            My intent with my posting re "BE - KNOW - DO" was to reinforce the importance
            of the 'BE' factor in leadership.



            YISAIB

            Sam Harley

            Dr. Samuel F. Harley, PhD
            Harley Science and Technology, Inc




            ________________________________
            From: MichaelB <emb021@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 10:08:52 AM
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership Training


            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Samuel Harley <samuelharley@...> wrote:
            >
            > The underlying theme for NYLT is "BE - KNOW - DO".
            >

            Be-Know-Do isn't a corporate leadership concept.

            It actually comes from the US Army.

            there are a couble of resources for those wanting to know more about it.

            "The U.S. Army Leadership Field Manual" is the work by the Leadership Center for
            the Army which coveres this concept. Its available from McGraw-Hill.

            "Be * Know * Do, Adapted from the Official Army Leadership Manual: Leadership
            the Army Way" is a work aimed to introduce business leaders to the concept by
            the Leader to Leader Institute/Peter Drucker Foundation.

            Michael Brown




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dan Kurtenbach
            I don t have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials.  One of my
            Message 5 of 13 , May 6, 2011
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              I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote
              to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials.  One of my
              comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all muddled up . .
              .

               
              Dan Kurtenbach
              Fairfax, VA

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Samuel Harley
              Dan wrote: One of my comments was about how they seem to have gotten Be and Do all muddled up . . You are absolutely correct!! From the Official BSA
              Message 6 of 13 , May 6, 2011
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                Dan wrote:

                "One of my comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all
                muddled up . . "



                You are absolutely correct!! From the "Official BSA" Troop Leadership Training
                Powerpoint comes:

                Module Two — Be
                1.Teaching EDGE™ Discussion
                2.The Scoutmaster’s Vision of Success3. Troop Progress Discussion

                The presentation confuses "be a concientious, ethical, trustworthy, .... human"
                with "be a leader" (which is in fact the 'do' of "BE - KNOW - DO")

                YISAIB

                Sam Harley



                Dr. Samuel F. Harley, PhD
                Harley Science and Technology, Inc




                ________________________________
                From: Dan Kurtenbach <danielkurtenbach@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 11:24:32 AM
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership Training


                I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote

                to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials. One of my
                comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all muddled up . .

                .


                Dan Kurtenbach
                Fairfax, VA

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Glen Hoshizaki
                Thank you for this! We’ve been struggling with implementing TLT as outlined in the BSA materials. Be-Know-Do seemed awfully obscure as written. Now I
                Message 7 of 13 , May 12, 2011
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                  Thank you for this!



                  We’ve been struggling with implementing TLT as outlined in the BSA materials. Be-Know-Do seemed awfully obscure as written. Now I understand.



                  Even so, I’m not sure how useful teenage boys will find that construct.



                  Glen



                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Samuel Harley
                  Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:08 AM



                  Dan wrote:

                  "One of my comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all
                  muddled up . . "

                  You are absolutely correct!! From the "Official BSA" Troop Leadership Training
                  Powerpoint comes:

                  Module Two — Be
                  1.Teaching EDGE™ Discussion
                  2.The Scoutmaster’s Vision of Success3. Troop Progress Discussion

                  The presentation confuses "be a concientious, ethical, trustworthy, .... human"
                  with "be a leader" (which is in fact the 'do' of "BE - KNOW - DO")

                  YISAIB

                  Sam Harley

                  ________________________________
                  From: Dan Kurtenbach <danielkurtenbach@... <mailto:danielkurtenbach%40hotmail.com> >
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 11:24:32 AM

                  I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote

                  to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials. One of my
                  comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all muddled up . . .

                  Dan Kurtenbach
                  Fairfax, VA



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • A. Dukovic
                  Guys, yes confusion!!   I d suggest you use the old JLT materials and incorporate the new TLT material.  Make implementation of the new TLT concepts much
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 12, 2011
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                    Guys, yes confusion!!   I'd suggest you use the old JLT materials and incorporate the new TLT material.  Make "implementation" of the new TLT concepts much easier for your boys.
                     
                    We do ours over a weekend and it works out just fine!!

                    - Art
                    --- On Thu, 5/12/11, Glen Hoshizaki <hoshizaki@...> wrote:

                    From: Glen Hoshizaki <hoshizaki@...>
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Be-Know-Do (WAS: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership Training)
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, May 12, 2011, 8:16 PM


                     



                    Thank you for this!

                    We’ve been struggling with implementing TLT as outlined in the BSA materials. Be-Know-Do seemed awfully obscure as written. Now I understand.

                    Even so, I’m not sure how useful teenage boys will find that construct.

                    Glen

                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Samuel Harley
                    Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:08 AM

                    Dan wrote:

                    "One of my comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all
                    muddled up . . "

                    You are absolutely correct!! From the "Official BSA" Troop Leadership Training
                    Powerpoint comes:

                    Module Two — Be
                    1.Teaching EDGE™ Discussion
                    2.The Scoutmaster’s Vision of Success3. Troop Progress Discussion

                    The presentation confuses "be a concientious, ethical, trustworthy, .... human"
                    with "be a leader" (which is in fact the 'do' of "BE - KNOW - DO")

                    YISAIB

                    Sam Harley

                    ________________________________
                    From: Dan Kurtenbach <danielkurtenbach@... <mailto:danielkurtenbach%40hotmail.com> >
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 11:24:32 AM

                    I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote

                    to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials. One of my
                    comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all muddled up . . .

                    Dan Kurtenbach
                    Fairfax, VA

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dan Kurtenbach
                    Frankly, my bigger concerns with Troop Leadership Training are: 1.  The notion of asking boys as young as 12 (or even 11) to have a vision ; and 2.  The
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 13, 2011
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                      Frankly, my bigger concerns with Troop Leadership Training are:

                      1.  The notion of asking boys as young as 12 (or even 11) to have a "vision";
                      and
                      2.  The notion of asking boys who sit in classrooms all day five days a week and
                      come to Boy Scouts for fresh air, hands-on fun, and adventure, to engage in
                      "thinking and writing" sessions.

                      And we wonder why they leave . . .

                      Dan Kurtenbach
                      Fairfax, VA 

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • D. Place
                      Doesn t really matter at this point... TLT is being replaced by ILST within a month or two. The new Philmont Leadership Challenge form already has it on it.
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 13, 2011
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                        Doesn't really matter at this point... TLT is being replaced by ILST within
                        a month or two. The new "Philmont Leadership Challenge" form already has it
                        on it.



                        Dave Place
                        Thurmont, MD



                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Dan Kurtenbach
                        Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:16 AM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Be-Know-Do (WAS: Wood Badge vs. Company
                        Leadership Training)





                        Frankly, my bigger concerns with Troop Leadership Training are:

                        1. The notion of asking boys as young as 12 (or even 11) to have a
                        "vision";
                        and
                        2. The notion of asking boys who sit in classrooms all day five days a week
                        and
                        come to Boy Scouts for fresh air, hands-on fun, and adventure, to engage in
                        "thinking and writing" sessions.

                        And we wonder why they leave . . .

                        Dan Kurtenbach
                        Fairfax, VA

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • jprussell14519
                        They get it extremely well. Be..Know..Do is the center of the OA Leadership model taught at NLS, and I have presented TLT for a number of troops in the area,
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 13, 2011
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                          They get it extremely well.
                          Be..Know..Do is the center of the OA Leadership model taught at NLS, and I have presented TLT for a number of troops in the area, and I find the teenage boys get it quite well - IF the coaches/presenters have internalized the ideas. Sometimes the adults have a harder time than the youth.

                          Jim Russell
                          District Training Chair
                          Seneca Waterways Council

                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Glen Hoshizaki" <hoshizaki@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Thank you for this!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > We’ve been struggling with implementing TLT as outlined in the BSA materials. Be-Know-Do seemed awfully obscure as written. Now I understand.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Even so, I’m not sure how useful teenage boys will find that construct.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Glen
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Samuel Harley
                          > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:08 AM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dan wrote:
                          >
                          > "One of my comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all
                          > muddled up . . "
                          >
                          > You are absolutely correct!! From the "Official BSA" Troop Leadership Training
                          > Powerpoint comes:
                          >
                          > Module Two â€" Be
                          > 1.Teaching EDGE™ Discussion
                          > 2.The Scoutmaster’s Vision of Success3. Troop Progress Discussion
                          >
                          > The presentation confuses "be a concientious, ethical, trustworthy, .... human"
                          > with "be a leader" (which is in fact the 'do' of "BE - KNOW - DO")
                          >
                          > YISAIB
                          >
                          > Sam Harley
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Dan Kurtenbach <danielkurtenbach@... <mailto:danielkurtenbach%40hotmail.com> >
                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Fri, May 6, 2011 11:24:32 AM
                          >
                          > I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but a couple of years back I wrote
                          >
                          > to National about the (Youth) Troop Leadership Training materials. One of my
                          > comments was about how they seem to have gotten "Be" and "Do" all muddled up . . .
                          >
                          > Dan Kurtenbach
                          > Fairfax, VA
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Samuel Harley
                          Expect the new TLT to include the concept of vision . It s covered in NYLT and Introduction to Leadership Skills for Crews (ILSC), and the New TLT will be
                          Message 12 of 13 , May 14, 2011
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                            Expect the new TLT to include the concept of 'vision'. It's covered in NYLT and
                            Introduction to Leadership Skills for Crews (ILSC), and the New TLT will be
                            aligned with these.

                            Also, 'vision' doesn't necessarily involve "thinking and writing" sessions.
                            When your PLC holds it's yearly planning conference the first step should be a
                            vision statement (whether you call it that or not). Say your troop wants a
                            program that promotes advancement for the younger scouts, keeps the older scouts
                            engaged and active, includes community service, and is lot's of fun. Then they
                            put together the outline of a yearly program plan. At their monthly PLC
                            meetings they develop detailed plans for the month's meetings. Perhaps their
                            goals are for their new scouts to complete 2nd class requirements x,y,z... and
                            the older scouts to develop plans for a high adventure trip in three months,
                            and some fun activities.

                            It's just not beyond their capabilities. It should be part of their KNOW, and
                            is something they can DO.

                            YISAIB,

                            Sam Harley
                            Dr. Samuel F. Harley, PhD
                            Harley Science and Technology, Inc




                            ________________________________
                            From: D. Place <zelnar@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:56:55 AM
                            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: Be-Know-Do (WAS: Wood Badge vs. Company Leadership
                            Training)


                            Doesn't really matter at this point... TLT is being replaced by ILST within
                            a month or two. The new "Philmont Leadership Challenge" form already has it
                            on it.

                            Dave Place
                            Thurmont, MD

                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of Dan Kurtenbach
                            Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 9:16 AM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Be-Know-Do (WAS: Wood Badge vs. Company
                            Leadership Training)

                            Frankly, my bigger concerns with Troop Leadership Training are:

                            1. The notion of asking boys as young as 12 (or even 11) to have a
                            "vision";
                            and
                            2. The notion of asking boys who sit in classrooms all day five days a week
                            and
                            come to Boy Scouts for fresh air, hands-on fun, and adventure, to engage in
                            "thinking and writing" sessions.

                            And we wonder why they leave . . .

                            Dan Kurtenbach
                            Fairfax, VA

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Glen Hoshizaki
                            My concerns are similar. Also, it seems to me from listening to the scouts (mainly the PLs and assistant PLs) that their concerns are mostly - and rightfully -
                            Message 13 of 13 , May 15, 2011
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                              My concerns are similar.



                              Also, it seems to me from listening to the scouts (mainly the PLs and
                              assistant PLs) that their concerns are mostly - and rightfully - practical,
                              along the lines of, "How can I get my scouts to do what they're supposed to
                              do?". Vision, leadership models, and so on seem to be a bit too abstract to
                              meet their immediate needs at their maturity level.



                              I've had a fair bit of leadership training and experience, and actually
                              really like the stuff, but I'm skeptical that the TLT target audience should
                              have much of that as a primary focus, as opposed to skills they can put into
                              immediate use. Once they have that under their belt they might have a better
                              appreciation of leadership theory.



                              I know this subject gets discussed a lot, but I'm still interested in
                              hearing others viewpoints.



                              Glen



                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Dan Kurtenbach
                              Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 6:16 AM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Be-Know-Do (WAS: Wood Badge vs. Company
                              Leadership Training)

                              Frankly, my bigger concerns with Troop Leadership Training are:

                              1. The notion of asking boys as young as 12 (or even 11) to have a
                              "vision";
                              and
                              2. The notion of asking boys who sit in classrooms all day five days a week
                              and
                              come to Boy Scouts for fresh air, hands-on fun, and adventure, to engage in
                              "thinking and writing" sessions.

                              And we wonder why they leave . . .

                              Dan Kurtenbach



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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