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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?

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  • Connie Knie
    Ok I hope that I am not nit picking because I really don t mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can t teach!! Why just because they
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
      Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach anyone anything...........

      Connie

      --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:



      Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
      lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time.  Are you saying that
      an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?   



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Wildschuetz
      Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach. But, that s not been my experience. Usually it s just teaching the skills, and
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
        Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach.
        But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's just teaching the skills, and
        seems to be targeted towards adults new to Scouting.

        Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier suggestion and work
        staff on it this fall.


        ________________________________
        From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 9:45:54 PM
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


        Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But
        seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because
        they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course
        they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with
        the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach
        younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops
        who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach
        anyone anything...........

        Connie

        --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:

        Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
        lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
        an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Scouter Chuck
        ... and in a later post; ... I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the question... I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
          David Wildschuetz wrote:

          > Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in
          > IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts
          > all the time. Are you saying that an 18 year old Eagle Scout has
          > to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

          > Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked
          > for some peripheral comment I make.

          and in a later post;

          > Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders
          > *how* to teach. But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's
          > just teaching the skills, and seems to be targeted towards adults
          > new to Scouting.
          >
          > Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier
          > suggestion and work staff on it this fall.

          I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the
          question...

          I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic position
          specific training when they were a Scout from 11 to 18 years old.
          I felt the same way when I first became a leader -- at least until
          I attended my first training.

          The parts of the program that a boy sees as a Scout are those
          parts that are intended to help him learn the skills necessary to
          succeed in life (at least that's the ideal), and advance as a
          Scout. He sees the campouts, the camporees, the Troop meetings,
          and looks on them as "the way things work". I.e., it's all "fun".

          What the boy doesn't see are the many hours of work behind the
          scenes by the Troop Committee, and the Troop leaders, to make the
          program fun and successful. These are the things that the brand
          new Eagle who just crossed over to be an adult ASM (or SA) needs
          to be taught.

          When these aren't taught in the training, it fails both the
          trainee and the trainer, as well as the program.

          What helps aggravate the problem is what some point out -- that
          the older Scouters go to the training and pretty much don't learn
          much. In many cases, they feel, and not too wrongly, that they've
          wasted their time.

          To relate it to a trade, as others have done, is not really all
          that helpful, because of the differences between trades/professions
          and the BSA program. I could say that it's like an Electrician
          keeping up on the latest codes, but what does that really say?
          All the building codes do is make sure that the basics are done to
          a certain standard. Maybe that's what we need to consider in our
          training.

          YiS,

          Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
          I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
          Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
          District Committee Member at Large
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
          -- Stephen R. Covey
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
        • Scouter Chuck
          A couple of points that I forgot to make: 1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original question Bill asked, which was what has changed
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
            A couple of points that I forgot to make:

            1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original
            question Bill asked, which was what has changed enough to make an
            "old timer" need to retake the course.

            2. It may be that in our rush to try to get 100% trained leaders,
            that somewhere along the line we're skimping on what the training
            really should cover.

            YiS,

            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
            District Committee Member at Large
            -------------------------------------------------------------------
            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
            -- Stephen R. Covey
            -------------------------------------------------------------------
          • tvcubtrainers
            Hello all, Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I d like to offer the following: 1. IOLS is indeed about
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 4, 2011
              Hello all,

              Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I'd like to offer the following:

              1. IOLS is indeed about teaching others to teach the Tenderfoot to First Class skills. However, it is also about teaching the patrol method and how to interact with the boys. An important part of the course is the experience of being in a patrol and working with the group dynamics of such. As such, leadership is about doing your best and leading from the front. What kind of an example is a leader setting if they say, Heck no... I know all this and don't need any more training. I'm not a fan of taking training for training's sake but if a leader hasn't taken the most recent course, I'd hope that they'd consider taking it if nothing else but to get the experience and the fun that a weekend with other like-minded leaders will get. This isn't basic training like boot camp in the army, it's leadership training done in an experiential way that can be really positive on us to help the youth we have the privilege to serve.

              2. I've taken the course with Eagle Scouts. They actually got a lot out of the course from the experience with the older men and women who may have kids in the program. They were able to hear about the adult part of scouting which helped them to prepare for their transition from youth leadership to adult leadership. The two Eagle scouts that went through the program were very glad they did it for this reason even though they were very skilled in "technicals" already.

              3. The best leader should learn to be a follower first. Or be reminded of what it is to be a follower every so often. This is a great opportunity for those are experienced who really want to be the
              best leaders possible to be reminded about what it is like to be a youth and to share their experience with others through the course as well. Just the time around the campfire and telling "stories" can be a great help to new and experienced leaders alike. Servant leadership.

              Thanks for allowing me to share my experiences and thoughts here. I hope they will help some to make their decisions for the benefit of the scouts.

              Phil Weiss
              ADC, Twin Valley District
              WB3-28-10
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