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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?

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  • ChristopherCPearson@gmail.com
    I ve been waiting for someone to point that out :) Walking Softly, Chris Pearson Trainer & Consultant Pearson Outdoor Education 206-550-3579 ... [Non-text
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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      I've been waiting for someone to point that out :)

      Walking Softly,
      Chris Pearson
      Trainer & Consultant
      Pearson Outdoor Education
      206-550-3579

      On Mar 3, 2011, at 6:10 PM, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

      > Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders
      > how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to
      > youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and
      > see what you missed last time.
      >
      > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz
      > <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once
      > or twice a
      > > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes
      > to technique
      > > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of
      > doing
      > > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to
      > learn how to do
      > > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the
      > same course that
      > > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do
      > this. You can't
      > > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the
      > newbies have no
      > > idea.
      > >
      > > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service
      > (or 10 years
      > > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's
      > been doing for
      > > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all
      > roundtables. Do you
      > > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for
      > those 5 to 10
      > > years?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds
      > that just
      > > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after
      > living it for the
      > > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some
      > degree, but you
      > > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
      > >
      > >
      > > David
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • David Wildschuetz
      Okay....I ll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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        Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
        lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
        an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

        Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked for some
        peripheral comment I make.



        ________________________________
        From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 8:10:49 PM
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


        Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach
        the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that
        from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.


        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >
        >
        > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice a
        > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
        >
        > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
        > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
        >
        > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
        >that
        >
        > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
        >can't
        >
        > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
        > idea.
        >
        > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years

        > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
        > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you
        > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to
        >10
        >
        > years?
        >
        >
        >
        > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
        > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
        >the
        >
        > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
        > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
        >
        >
        > David
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Connie Knie
        Ok I hope that I am not nit picking because I really don t mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can t teach!! Why just because they
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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          Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach anyone anything...........

          Connie

          --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:



          Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
          lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time.  Are you saying that
          an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?   



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Wildschuetz
          Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach. But, that s not been my experience. Usually it s just teaching the skills, and
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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            Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach.
            But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's just teaching the skills, and
            seems to be targeted towards adults new to Scouting.

            Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier suggestion and work
            staff on it this fall.


            ________________________________
            From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 9:45:54 PM
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


            Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But
            seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because
            they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course
            they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with
            the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach
            younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops
            who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach
            anyone anything...........

            Connie

            --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:

            Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
            lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
            an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scouter Chuck
            ... and in a later post; ... I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the question... I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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              David Wildschuetz wrote:

              > Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in
              > IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts
              > all the time. Are you saying that an 18 year old Eagle Scout has
              > to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

              > Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked
              > for some peripheral comment I make.

              and in a later post;

              > Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders
              > *how* to teach. But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's
              > just teaching the skills, and seems to be targeted towards adults
              > new to Scouting.
              >
              > Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier
              > suggestion and work staff on it this fall.

              I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the
              question...

              I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic position
              specific training when they were a Scout from 11 to 18 years old.
              I felt the same way when I first became a leader -- at least until
              I attended my first training.

              The parts of the program that a boy sees as a Scout are those
              parts that are intended to help him learn the skills necessary to
              succeed in life (at least that's the ideal), and advance as a
              Scout. He sees the campouts, the camporees, the Troop meetings,
              and looks on them as "the way things work". I.e., it's all "fun".

              What the boy doesn't see are the many hours of work behind the
              scenes by the Troop Committee, and the Troop leaders, to make the
              program fun and successful. These are the things that the brand
              new Eagle who just crossed over to be an adult ASM (or SA) needs
              to be taught.

              When these aren't taught in the training, it fails both the
              trainee and the trainer, as well as the program.

              What helps aggravate the problem is what some point out -- that
              the older Scouters go to the training and pretty much don't learn
              much. In many cases, they feel, and not too wrongly, that they've
              wasted their time.

              To relate it to a trade, as others have done, is not really all
              that helpful, because of the differences between trades/professions
              and the BSA program. I could say that it's like an Electrician
              keeping up on the latest codes, but what does that really say?
              All the building codes do is make sure that the basics are done to
              a certain standard. Maybe that's what we need to consider in our
              training.

              YiS,

              Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
              I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
              Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
              District Committee Member at Large
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
              -- Stephen R. Covey
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
            • Scouter Chuck
              A couple of points that I forgot to make: 1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original question Bill asked, which was what has changed
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                A couple of points that I forgot to make:

                1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original
                question Bill asked, which was what has changed enough to make an
                "old timer" need to retake the course.

                2. It may be that in our rush to try to get 100% trained leaders,
                that somewhere along the line we're skimping on what the training
                really should cover.

                YiS,

                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                District Committee Member at Large
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                -- Stephen R. Covey
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
              • tvcubtrainers
                Hello all, Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I d like to offer the following: 1. IOLS is indeed about
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 4, 2011
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                  Hello all,

                  Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I'd like to offer the following:

                  1. IOLS is indeed about teaching others to teach the Tenderfoot to First Class skills. However, it is also about teaching the patrol method and how to interact with the boys. An important part of the course is the experience of being in a patrol and working with the group dynamics of such. As such, leadership is about doing your best and leading from the front. What kind of an example is a leader setting if they say, Heck no... I know all this and don't need any more training. I'm not a fan of taking training for training's sake but if a leader hasn't taken the most recent course, I'd hope that they'd consider taking it if nothing else but to get the experience and the fun that a weekend with other like-minded leaders will get. This isn't basic training like boot camp in the army, it's leadership training done in an experiential way that can be really positive on us to help the youth we have the privilege to serve.

                  2. I've taken the course with Eagle Scouts. They actually got a lot out of the course from the experience with the older men and women who may have kids in the program. They were able to hear about the adult part of scouting which helped them to prepare for their transition from youth leadership to adult leadership. The two Eagle scouts that went through the program were very glad they did it for this reason even though they were very skilled in "technicals" already.

                  3. The best leader should learn to be a follower first. Or be reminded of what it is to be a follower every so often. This is a great opportunity for those are experienced who really want to be the
                  best leaders possible to be reminded about what it is like to be a youth and to share their experience with others through the course as well. Just the time around the campfire and telling "stories" can be a great help to new and experienced leaders alike. Servant leadership.

                  Thanks for allowing me to share my experiences and thoughts here. I hope they will help some to make their decisions for the benefit of the scouts.

                  Phil Weiss
                  ADC, Twin Valley District
                  WB3-28-10
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