Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: What's Changed?

Expand Messages
  • Gerry
    From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses.
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
      From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses. We taught the old Cub Scout Position Specifics for 10+ years - that went WAY too long before a refresh.

      BTW, Roundtable is actually Commissioner Service in a group setting, not a training event.

      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
      >
      > Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And,
      > would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not, why
      > do we keep going?  Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?
      >
      > Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen.  However, I re-took
      > the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was very
      > little new information.  Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
      > differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found on
      > the internet. 
      >
      >
      > Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since 1995,
      > re-training was not necessary".
      >
      > I'm not against training.  I've taken and re-taken many courses.   I'm just not
      > for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
      > minute roundtable session.
      >
      > David
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...>
      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
      > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?
      >
      >  
      > <Snip>
      >
      > but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
      > <snip>
      >
      > I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
      > This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
      > putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
      > is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
      > required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
      > up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
      > cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
      > of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
      > of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
      > going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
      > sharp? Really?
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • ChristopherCPearson@gmail.com
      I ve been waiting for someone to point that out :) Walking Softly, Chris Pearson Trainer & Consultant Pearson Outdoor Education 206-550-3579 ... [Non-text
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
        I've been waiting for someone to point that out :)

        Walking Softly,
        Chris Pearson
        Trainer & Consultant
        Pearson Outdoor Education
        206-550-3579

        On Mar 3, 2011, at 6:10 PM, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

        > Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders
        > how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to
        > youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and
        > see what you missed last time.
        >
        > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz
        > <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once
        > or twice a
        > > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes
        > to technique
        > > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of
        > doing
        > > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to
        > learn how to do
        > > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the
        > same course that
        > > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do
        > this. You can't
        > > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the
        > newbies have no
        > > idea.
        > >
        > > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service
        > (or 10 years
        > > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's
        > been doing for
        > > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all
        > roundtables. Do you
        > > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for
        > those 5 to 10
        > > years?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds
        > that just
        > > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after
        > living it for the
        > > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some
        > degree, but you
        > > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
        > >
        > >
        > > David
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David Wildschuetz
        Okay....I ll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
          Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
          lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
          an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

          Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked for some
          peripheral comment I make.



          ________________________________
          From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 8:10:49 PM
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


          Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach
          the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that
          from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.


          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice a
          > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
          >
          > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
          > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
          >
          > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
          >that
          >
          > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
          >can't
          >
          > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
          > idea.
          >
          > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years

          > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
          > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you
          > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to
          >10
          >
          > years?
          >
          >
          >
          > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
          > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
          >the
          >
          > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
          > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
          >
          >
          > David
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Connie Knie
          Ok I hope that I am not nit picking because I really don t mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can t teach!! Why just because they
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
            Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach anyone anything...........

            Connie

            --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:



            Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
            lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time.  Are you saying that
            an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?   



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Wildschuetz
            Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach. But, that s not been my experience. Usually it s just teaching the skills, and
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
              Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach.
              But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's just teaching the skills, and
              seems to be targeted towards adults new to Scouting.

              Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier suggestion and work
              staff on it this fall.


              ________________________________
              From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 9:45:54 PM
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


              Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But
              seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because
              they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course
              they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with
              the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach
              younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops
              who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach
              anyone anything...........

              Connie

              --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:

              Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
              lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
              an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Scouter Chuck
              ... and in a later post; ... I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the question... I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                David Wildschuetz wrote:

                > Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in
                > IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts
                > all the time. Are you saying that an 18 year old Eagle Scout has
                > to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                > Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked
                > for some peripheral comment I make.

                and in a later post;

                > Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders
                > *how* to teach. But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's
                > just teaching the skills, and seems to be targeted towards adults
                > new to Scouting.
                >
                > Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier
                > suggestion and work staff on it this fall.

                I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the
                question...

                I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic position
                specific training when they were a Scout from 11 to 18 years old.
                I felt the same way when I first became a leader -- at least until
                I attended my first training.

                The parts of the program that a boy sees as a Scout are those
                parts that are intended to help him learn the skills necessary to
                succeed in life (at least that's the ideal), and advance as a
                Scout. He sees the campouts, the camporees, the Troop meetings,
                and looks on them as "the way things work". I.e., it's all "fun".

                What the boy doesn't see are the many hours of work behind the
                scenes by the Troop Committee, and the Troop leaders, to make the
                program fun and successful. These are the things that the brand
                new Eagle who just crossed over to be an adult ASM (or SA) needs
                to be taught.

                When these aren't taught in the training, it fails both the
                trainee and the trainer, as well as the program.

                What helps aggravate the problem is what some point out -- that
                the older Scouters go to the training and pretty much don't learn
                much. In many cases, they feel, and not too wrongly, that they've
                wasted their time.

                To relate it to a trade, as others have done, is not really all
                that helpful, because of the differences between trades/professions
                and the BSA program. I could say that it's like an Electrician
                keeping up on the latest codes, but what does that really say?
                All the building codes do is make sure that the basics are done to
                a certain standard. Maybe that's what we need to consider in our
                training.

                YiS,

                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                District Committee Member at Large
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                -- Stephen R. Covey
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
              • Scouter Chuck
                A couple of points that I forgot to make: 1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original question Bill asked, which was what has changed
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                  A couple of points that I forgot to make:

                  1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original
                  question Bill asked, which was what has changed enough to make an
                  "old timer" need to retake the course.

                  2. It may be that in our rush to try to get 100% trained leaders,
                  that somewhere along the line we're skimping on what the training
                  really should cover.

                  YiS,

                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                  Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                  District Committee Member at Large
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                • tvcubtrainers
                  Hello all, Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I d like to offer the following: 1. IOLS is indeed about
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 4, 2011
                    Hello all,

                    Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I'd like to offer the following:

                    1. IOLS is indeed about teaching others to teach the Tenderfoot to First Class skills. However, it is also about teaching the patrol method and how to interact with the boys. An important part of the course is the experience of being in a patrol and working with the group dynamics of such. As such, leadership is about doing your best and leading from the front. What kind of an example is a leader setting if they say, Heck no... I know all this and don't need any more training. I'm not a fan of taking training for training's sake but if a leader hasn't taken the most recent course, I'd hope that they'd consider taking it if nothing else but to get the experience and the fun that a weekend with other like-minded leaders will get. This isn't basic training like boot camp in the army, it's leadership training done in an experiential way that can be really positive on us to help the youth we have the privilege to serve.

                    2. I've taken the course with Eagle Scouts. They actually got a lot out of the course from the experience with the older men and women who may have kids in the program. They were able to hear about the adult part of scouting which helped them to prepare for their transition from youth leadership to adult leadership. The two Eagle scouts that went through the program were very glad they did it for this reason even though they were very skilled in "technicals" already.

                    3. The best leader should learn to be a follower first. Or be reminded of what it is to be a follower every so often. This is a great opportunity for those are experienced who really want to be the
                    best leaders possible to be reminded about what it is like to be a youth and to share their experience with others through the course as well. Just the time around the campfire and telling "stories" can be a great help to new and experienced leaders alike. Servant leadership.

                    Thanks for allowing me to share my experiences and thoughts here. I hope they will help some to make their decisions for the benefit of the scouts.

                    Phil Weiss
                    ADC, Twin Valley District
                    WB3-28-10
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.