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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?

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  • Jillscout@aol.com
    How about It is an opportunity to refresh with the new 21st century jargon and this is a chance for you to share your vast knowledge and skills with
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 26, 2011
      How about It is an opportunity to refresh with the new 21st century
      jargon and this is a chance for you to share your vast knowledge and skills
      with others!





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Scouter Chuck
      Bill: ... I have to admit that I m in somewhat of the same boat. And, I haven t seen the need for me to retake that training as my interests and
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
        Bill:

        You wrote:
        > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that
        > would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
        >
        > Thoughts?

        I have to admit that I'm in somewhat of the same boat. And, I
        haven't seen the need for me to retake that training as my
        interests and resonsibilities have changed over the years.

        One trick that I remember being told when we had an ASM who felt
        the same way, but was causing trouble because if his lack of
        training in certain areas, was to get him on staff for the
        training.

        That provides a 2 way benefit:
        1. He gets the current training
        2. The trainees get the benefit of his knowledge of things that
        haven't changed that much. Which is one reason that I keep
        all my old handbooks.

        Hope this helps.

        YiS,

        Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
        I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
        Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
        District Committee Member at Large
        -------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
        -- Stephen R. Covey
        -------------------------------------------------------------------
      • Scouter Chuck
        Gerry wrote: [snip] ... You ve been watching too many commercials. :/ Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don t think much of the newer program.
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
          Gerry wrote:

          [snip]
          > 10. "Maybe we ought to just go over to namby-pamby land and
          > do the training, you jackwagon!"

          You've been watching too many commercials. :/

          Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don't think much
          of the newer program. ;)

          BTW, I don't recall that Bill said that he was the one. It could
          be someone else that he works with in the program.

          YiS,

          Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
          I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
          Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
          District Committee Member at Large
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
          -- Stephen R. Covey
          -------------------------------------------------------------------
        • doc marshall
          Yes, I would recommend re-taking the course. The syllabus changed a couple of years ago and, while the basics are the same, there are some new items that you
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
            Yes, I would recommend re-taking the course. The syllabus changed a couple of years ago and, while the basics are the same, there are some new items that you might very well find useful.
             
            In Scouting and Service,
            Dco Marshall
            BS Leader Training Coordinator
            Rocky Mountain District
            Longs Peak Council

            --- On Wed, 3/2/11, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:


            From: Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...>
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] What's Changed?
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: "Bill" <bnelson45@...>
            Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 10:06 AM


             



            Bill:

            You wrote:
            > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that
            > would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
            >
            > Thoughts?

            I have to admit that I'm in somewhat of the same boat. And, I
            haven't seen the need for me to retake that training as my
            interests and resonsibilities have changed over the years.

            One trick that I remember being told when we had an ASM who felt
            the same way, but was causing trouble because if his lack of
            training in certain areas, was to get him on staff for the
            training.

            That provides a 2 way benefit:
            1. He gets the current training
            2. The trainees get the benefit of his knowledge of things that
            haven't changed that much. Which is one reason that I keep
            all my old handbooks.

            Hope this helps.

            YiS,

            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
            District Committee Member at Large
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
            -- Stephen R. Covey
            ----------------------------------------------------------







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Herb
            If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
              If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you need to take.

              Herb D.

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bnelson45@...> wrote:
              >
              > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
              >
              > Thoughts?
              >
            • Bill
              That test is longer than some of the courses Bill
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
                That test is longer than some of the courses

                Bill

                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Herb" <hadulzo@...> wrote:
                >
                > If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you need to take.
                >
                > Herb D.
                >
                > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bnelson45@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
                > >
                > > Thoughts?
                > >
                >
              • Gerry
                On the contrary. I don t think much of those old-timers who just cannot see the benefit of keeping current in the program. I m reminded of some other groups in
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
                  On the contrary. I don't think much of those old-timers who just cannot see the benefit of keeping current in the program. I'm reminded of some other groups in our world today who think the world should stay like it was 500 years ago - only with Scouters, we have only 100 years to go on, so the time scale is much, much smaller. Many professional roles today are such that "continuing education" is part and parcel with maintaining status. What if your doctor thats' been practicing for 30 years never read a book or paper or went to a CE class and still treated your lung infection with the "old" drugs? I just cannot see any reason why a Scoutmaster or ASM or committee member in the job for 10, 15, 20 years can justify not keeping current with a program that changes constantly. And you don't get every nut and bolt at Roundtable.

                  I'll give you that not every change we get seems to be the best-implemented when it comes off paper and goes into real-world, and some even fail miserably. What we do today is not what we did in 1962 when I first joined up. But anyone who stands and says that change is not inevitable is way out of touch - as are those that think that taking a day of training will cause them to implode. There isn't even a test. It's just an endurance event. Get to the end of the day, get a card. It's my highly opinionated 2 cents, for what it's worth - Maybe 2 cents, maybe not. I'm not looking to pick a fight, just standing on a soapbox. But I'm done now.

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Gerry wrote:
                  >
                  > [snip]
                  > > 10. "Maybe we ought to just go over to namby-pamby land and
                  > > do the training, you jackwagon!"
                  >
                  > You've been watching too many commercials. :/
                  >
                  > Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don't think much
                  > of the newer program. ;)
                  >
                  > BTW, I don't recall that Bill said that he was the one. It could
                  > be someone else that he works with in the program.
                  >
                  > YiS,
                  >
                  > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  > I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                  > Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                  > District Committee Member at Large
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  > -- Stephen R. Covey
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                • Herb
                  Using logic of why bother what s the point of renewing CPR? I help training with OLS sessions to keep sharp and I swear everytime I do it i learn something
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                    Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR? I help training with OLS sessions to keep sharp and I swear everytime I do it i learn something new. Sometimes it is something in the material I didn't notice and sometimes its from iteracting with other scouters, somethimes its just a new recipe or a cmp gisomo, but its always worth my time. Also working with new scouters refreshes me.

                    Old timers who don't refresh their training are not following the scout motto and slogan. Are they exempt because of seniority?

                    Herb Dulzo
                    Chicago Area Council
                  • David Wildschuetz
                    ...   Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                      >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                       

                      Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a
                      week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                      might be brought up once or twice a year.  Now after 10 years of doing
                      this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                      CPR .  We're not talking about a refresher course.  This is the same course that
                      will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this.  You can't
                      skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                      idea.

                      Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years
                      even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                      the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables.  Do you
                      also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to 10
                      years? 



                      And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                      transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for the
                      past 7 years?  I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                      want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"?  Really?


                      David

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ed Mitchell
                      but you want to teach an Eagle Scout how to camp ? Really? I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses. This is not
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                        <Snip>

                        but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                        <snip>



                        I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                        This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                        putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                        is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                        required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                        up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                        cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                        of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                        of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                        going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                        sharp? Really?



                        Yours in Scouting



                        Ed Mitchell

                        Scoutmaster Troop 1508

                        Committee Chair Pack 4508

                        Member of the District Training Team

                        I used to be a Bobwhite (WE1-609-1-10)



                        Description: Description: cid:image001.gif@01CAA344.D3F62CF0





                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of David Wildschuetz
                        Sent: 03/03/2011 12:14 PM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?







                        >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                        ----------------------------------------------------------



                        Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice
                        a
                        week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to
                        technique
                        might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
                        this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to
                        do
                        CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
                        that
                        will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
                        can't
                        skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                        idea.

                        Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10
                        years
                        even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing
                        for
                        the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you

                        also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5
                        to 10
                        years?

                        And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                        transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
                        the
                        past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but
                        you
                        want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?

                        David

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Wildschuetz
                        Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And, would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not,
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                          Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And,
                          would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not, why
                          do we keep going?  Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?

                          Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen.  However, I re-took
                          the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was very
                          little new information.  Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                          differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found on
                          the internet. 


                          Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since 1995,
                          re-training was not necessary".

                          I'm not against training.  I've taken and re-taken many courses.   I'm just not
                          for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                          minute roundtable session.

                          David


                          ________________________________
                          From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...>
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?

                           
                          <Snip>

                          but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                          <snip>

                          I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                          This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                          putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                          is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                          required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                          up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                          cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                          of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                          of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                          going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                          sharp? Really?

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Ed Mitchell
                          If you are only doing a full day session, I would say you are already getting a break, the course outline calls for Friday to Sunday. If you feel you already
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                            If you are only doing a full day session, I would say you are already
                            getting a break, the course outline calls for Friday to Sunday.



                            If you feel you already know all the material, why not volunteer to staff,
                            then you can get credit for taking it and share your knowledge with those
                            that do not know the information.



                            I would rather have someone take the class that does not need the
                            information, then to have someone not take the class that does, after all
                            every scout deserves a trained leader.



                            Some people think they know it all because they are outdoorsmen however,
                            what they know maybe useless to a scout trying to earn advancement in a
                            scouting program.







                            Yours in Scouting



                            Ed Mitchell

                            Scoutmaster Troop 1508

                            Committee Chair Pack 4508

                            Member of the District Training Team

                            I used to be a Bobwhite (WE1-609-1-10)



                            Description: Description: cid:image001.gif@01CAA344.D3F62CF0





                            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            Of David Wildschuetz
                            Sent: 03/03/2011 1:45 PM
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?





                            Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.
                            And,
                            would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education? If not,
                            why
                            do we keep going? Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?

                            Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen. However, I
                            re-took
                            the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was
                            very
                            little new information. Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                            differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found
                            on
                            the internet.

                            Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since
                            1995,
                            re-training was not necessary".

                            I'm not against training. I've taken and re-taken many courses. I'm just
                            not
                            for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                            minute roundtable session.

                            David

                            ________________________________
                            From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...
                            <mailto:scoutmaster%40bsatroop1508.org> >
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                            <Snip>

                            but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                            <snip>

                            I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                            This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                            putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                            is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                            required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                            up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                            cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                            of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                            of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                            going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                            sharp? Really?

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Gerry
                            Really. IOLS doesn t teach how to camp . It teaches adult leaders how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn t get that
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                              Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                              > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              > Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a
                              > week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                              > might be brought up once or twice a year.  Now after 10 years of doing
                              > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                              > CPR .  We're not talking about a refresher course.  This is the same course that
                              > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this.  You can't
                              > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                              > idea.
                              >
                              > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years
                              > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                              > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables.  Do you
                              > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to 10
                              > years? 
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                              > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for the
                              > past 7 years?  I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                              > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"?  Really?
                              >
                              >
                              > David
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Gerry
                              From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses.
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses. We taught the old Cub Scout Position Specifics for 10+ years - that went WAY too long before a refresh.

                                BTW, Roundtable is actually Commissioner Service in a group setting, not a training event.

                                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And,
                                > would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not, why
                                > do we keep going?  Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?
                                >
                                > Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen.  However, I re-took
                                > the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was very
                                > little new information.  Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                                > differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found on
                                > the internet. 
                                >
                                >
                                > Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since 1995,
                                > re-training was not necessary".
                                >
                                > I'm not against training.  I've taken and re-taken many courses.   I'm just not
                                > for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                                > minute roundtable session.
                                >
                                > David
                                >
                                >
                                > ________________________________
                                > From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...>
                                > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                                > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?
                                >
                                >  
                                > <Snip>
                                >
                                > but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                > <snip>
                                >
                                > I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                                > This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                                > putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                                > is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                                > required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                                > up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                                > cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                                > of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                                > of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                                > going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                                > sharp? Really?
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • ChristopherCPearson@gmail.com
                                I ve been waiting for someone to point that out :) Walking Softly, Chris Pearson Trainer & Consultant Pearson Outdoor Education 206-550-3579 ... [Non-text
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                  I've been waiting for someone to point that out :)

                                  Walking Softly,
                                  Chris Pearson
                                  Trainer & Consultant
                                  Pearson Outdoor Education
                                  206-550-3579

                                  On Mar 3, 2011, at 6:10 PM, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

                                  > Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders
                                  > how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to
                                  > youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and
                                  > see what you missed last time.
                                  >
                                  > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz
                                  > <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                                  > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once
                                  > or twice a
                                  > > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes
                                  > to technique
                                  > > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of
                                  > doing
                                  > > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to
                                  > learn how to do
                                  > > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the
                                  > same course that
                                  > > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do
                                  > this. You can't
                                  > > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the
                                  > newbies have no
                                  > > idea.
                                  > >
                                  > > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service
                                  > (or 10 years
                                  > > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's
                                  > been doing for
                                  > > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all
                                  > roundtables. Do you
                                  > > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for
                                  > those 5 to 10
                                  > > years?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds
                                  > that just
                                  > > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after
                                  > living it for the
                                  > > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some
                                  > degree, but you
                                  > > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > David
                                  > >
                                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • David Wildschuetz
                                  Okay....I ll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                    Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                    lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                    an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                    Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked for some
                                    peripheral comment I make.



                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>
                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 8:10:49 PM
                                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                                    Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach
                                    the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that
                                    from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.


                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice a
                                    > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                                    >
                                    > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
                                    > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                                    >
                                    > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
                                    >that
                                    >
                                    > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
                                    >can't
                                    >
                                    > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                                    > idea.
                                    >
                                    > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years

                                    > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                                    > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you
                                    > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to
                                    >10
                                    >
                                    > years?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                                    > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
                                    >the
                                    >
                                    > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                                    > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > David
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Connie Knie
                                    Ok I hope that I am not nit picking because I really don t mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can t teach!! Why just because they
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                      Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach anyone anything...........

                                      Connie

                                      --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:



                                      Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                      lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time.  Are you saying that
                                      an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?   



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • David Wildschuetz
                                      Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach. But, that s not been my experience. Usually it s just teaching the skills, and
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                        Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach.
                                        But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's just teaching the skills, and
                                        seems to be targeted towards adults new to Scouting.

                                        Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier suggestion and work
                                        staff on it this fall.


                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 9:45:54 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                                        Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But
                                        seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because
                                        they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course
                                        they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with
                                        the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach
                                        younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops
                                        who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach
                                        anyone anything...........

                                        Connie

                                        --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:

                                        Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                        lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                        an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Scouter Chuck
                                        ... and in a later post; ... I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the question... I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                          David Wildschuetz wrote:

                                          > Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in
                                          > IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts
                                          > all the time. Are you saying that an 18 year old Eagle Scout has
                                          > to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                          > Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked
                                          > for some peripheral comment I make.

                                          and in a later post;

                                          > Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders
                                          > *how* to teach. But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's
                                          > just teaching the skills, and seems to be targeted towards adults
                                          > new to Scouting.
                                          >
                                          > Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier
                                          > suggestion and work staff on it this fall.

                                          I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the
                                          question...

                                          I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic position
                                          specific training when they were a Scout from 11 to 18 years old.
                                          I felt the same way when I first became a leader -- at least until
                                          I attended my first training.

                                          The parts of the program that a boy sees as a Scout are those
                                          parts that are intended to help him learn the skills necessary to
                                          succeed in life (at least that's the ideal), and advance as a
                                          Scout. He sees the campouts, the camporees, the Troop meetings,
                                          and looks on them as "the way things work". I.e., it's all "fun".

                                          What the boy doesn't see are the many hours of work behind the
                                          scenes by the Troop Committee, and the Troop leaders, to make the
                                          program fun and successful. These are the things that the brand
                                          new Eagle who just crossed over to be an adult ASM (or SA) needs
                                          to be taught.

                                          When these aren't taught in the training, it fails both the
                                          trainee and the trainer, as well as the program.

                                          What helps aggravate the problem is what some point out -- that
                                          the older Scouters go to the training and pretty much don't learn
                                          much. In many cases, they feel, and not too wrongly, that they've
                                          wasted their time.

                                          To relate it to a trade, as others have done, is not really all
                                          that helpful, because of the differences between trades/professions
                                          and the BSA program. I could say that it's like an Electrician
                                          keeping up on the latest codes, but what does that really say?
                                          All the building codes do is make sure that the basics are done to
                                          a certain standard. Maybe that's what we need to consider in our
                                          training.

                                          YiS,

                                          Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                                          I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                                          Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                                          District Committee Member at Large
                                          -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                          -- Stephen R. Covey
                                          -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        • Scouter Chuck
                                          A couple of points that I forgot to make: 1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original question Bill asked, which was what has changed
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
                                            A couple of points that I forgot to make:

                                            1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original
                                            question Bill asked, which was what has changed enough to make an
                                            "old timer" need to retake the course.

                                            2. It may be that in our rush to try to get 100% trained leaders,
                                            that somewhere along the line we're skimping on what the training
                                            really should cover.

                                            YiS,

                                            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                                            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                                            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                                            District Committee Member at Large
                                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                            -- Stephen R. Covey
                                            -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                          • tvcubtrainers
                                            Hello all, Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I d like to offer the following: 1. IOLS is indeed about
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 4, 2011
                                              Hello all,

                                              Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I'd like to offer the following:

                                              1. IOLS is indeed about teaching others to teach the Tenderfoot to First Class skills. However, it is also about teaching the patrol method and how to interact with the boys. An important part of the course is the experience of being in a patrol and working with the group dynamics of such. As such, leadership is about doing your best and leading from the front. What kind of an example is a leader setting if they say, Heck no... I know all this and don't need any more training. I'm not a fan of taking training for training's sake but if a leader hasn't taken the most recent course, I'd hope that they'd consider taking it if nothing else but to get the experience and the fun that a weekend with other like-minded leaders will get. This isn't basic training like boot camp in the army, it's leadership training done in an experiential way that can be really positive on us to help the youth we have the privilege to serve.

                                              2. I've taken the course with Eagle Scouts. They actually got a lot out of the course from the experience with the older men and women who may have kids in the program. They were able to hear about the adult part of scouting which helped them to prepare for their transition from youth leadership to adult leadership. The two Eagle scouts that went through the program were very glad they did it for this reason even though they were very skilled in "technicals" already.

                                              3. The best leader should learn to be a follower first. Or be reminded of what it is to be a follower every so often. This is a great opportunity for those are experienced who really want to be the
                                              best leaders possible to be reminded about what it is like to be a youth and to share their experience with others through the course as well. Just the time around the campfire and telling "stories" can be a great help to new and experienced leaders alike. Servant leadership.

                                              Thanks for allowing me to share my experiences and thoughts here. I hope they will help some to make their decisions for the benefit of the scouts.

                                              Phil Weiss
                                              ADC, Twin Valley District
                                              WB3-28-10
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