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What's Changed?

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  • Bill
    Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific. Thoughts?
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 24, 2011
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      Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.

      Thoughts?
    • Mark Sowden
      Society, the Scouts--their interests, their activities, how adults interactions with boys has changed, rank requirements. Only two sorts of people can benefit
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 25, 2011
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        Society, the Scouts--their interests, their activities, how adults
        interactions with boys has changed, rank requirements.
        Only two sorts of people can benefit from retaking any training after
        such a period--the Leaders and the Scouts--Go for it.
      • Gerry
        1. I am resistant to change in an ever-evolving program 2. I am resistant to change in an ever-evolving culture 3. We ve always done it this way 4. Back in
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 26, 2011
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          1. I am resistant to change in an ever-evolving program
          2. I am resistant to change in an ever-evolving culture
          3. "We've always done it this way"
          4. "Back in MY day..."
          5. "I took the REAL training when it was three weekends out in the woods..."
          6. "I am already trained. I don't HAVE to retake the course."
          7. "These guys can't teach me anything I don't already know. In fact I could teach them a lesson or two."
          8. "Show me a list"
          9. "I've been in Scouting longer then the trainers have been alive"
          10. "Maybe we ought to just go over to namby-pamby land and do the training, you jackwagon!"



          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bnelson45@...> wrote:
          >
          > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
          >
          > Thoughts?
          >
        • Jillscout@aol.com
          How about It is an opportunity to refresh with the new 21st century jargon and this is a chance for you to share your vast knowledge and skills with
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 26, 2011
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            How about It is an opportunity to refresh with the new 21st century
            jargon and this is a chance for you to share your vast knowledge and skills
            with others!





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scouter Chuck
            Bill: ... I have to admit that I m in somewhat of the same boat. And, I haven t seen the need for me to retake that training as my interests and
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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              Bill:

              You wrote:
              > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that
              > would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
              >
              > Thoughts?

              I have to admit that I'm in somewhat of the same boat. And, I
              haven't seen the need for me to retake that training as my
              interests and resonsibilities have changed over the years.

              One trick that I remember being told when we had an ASM who felt
              the same way, but was causing trouble because if his lack of
              training in certain areas, was to get him on staff for the
              training.

              That provides a 2 way benefit:
              1. He gets the current training
              2. The trainees get the benefit of his knowledge of things that
              haven't changed that much. Which is one reason that I keep
              all my old handbooks.

              Hope this helps.

              YiS,

              Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
              I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
              Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
              District Committee Member at Large
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
              -- Stephen R. Covey
              -------------------------------------------------------------------
            • Scouter Chuck
              Gerry wrote: [snip] ... You ve been watching too many commercials. :/ Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don t think much of the newer program.
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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                Gerry wrote:

                [snip]
                > 10. "Maybe we ought to just go over to namby-pamby land and
                > do the training, you jackwagon!"

                You've been watching too many commercials. :/

                Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don't think much
                of the newer program. ;)

                BTW, I don't recall that Bill said that he was the one. It could
                be someone else that he works with in the program.

                YiS,

                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                District Committee Member at Large
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                -- Stephen R. Covey
                -------------------------------------------------------------------
              • doc marshall
                Yes, I would recommend re-taking the course. The syllabus changed a couple of years ago and, while the basics are the same, there are some new items that you
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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                  Yes, I would recommend re-taking the course. The syllabus changed a couple of years ago and, while the basics are the same, there are some new items that you might very well find useful.
                   
                  In Scouting and Service,
                  Dco Marshall
                  BS Leader Training Coordinator
                  Rocky Mountain District
                  Longs Peak Council

                  --- On Wed, 3/2/11, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:


                  From: Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] What's Changed?
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Cc: "Bill" <bnelson45@...>
                  Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 10:06 AM


                   



                  Bill:

                  You wrote:
                  > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that
                  > would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
                  >
                  > Thoughts?

                  I have to admit that I'm in somewhat of the same boat. And, I
                  haven't seen the need for me to retake that training as my
                  interests and resonsibilities have changed over the years.

                  One trick that I remember being told when we had an ASM who felt
                  the same way, but was causing trouble because if his lack of
                  training in certain areas, was to get him on staff for the
                  training.

                  That provides a 2 way benefit:
                  1. He gets the current training
                  2. The trainees get the benefit of his knowledge of things that
                  haven't changed that much. Which is one reason that I keep
                  all my old handbooks.

                  Hope this helps.

                  YiS,

                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                  Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                  District Committee Member at Large
                  ----------------------------------------------------------
                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                  ----------------------------------------------------------







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Herb
                  If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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                    If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you need to take.

                    Herb D.

                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bnelson45@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
                    >
                    > Thoughts?
                    >
                  • Bill
                    That test is longer than some of the courses Bill
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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                      That test is longer than some of the courses

                      Bill

                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Herb" <hadulzo@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > If you long on to myscouting there is a test that asks a series of questions checking your knowledge, evaluates your answers and tells you what training you need to take.
                      >
                      > Herb D.
                      >
                      > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Bill" <bnelson45@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Looking for a list of what has changed in the last 10 years that would encourage an old time Scouter to retake SM Specific.
                      > >
                      > > Thoughts?
                      > >
                      >
                    • Gerry
                      On the contrary. I don t think much of those old-timers who just cannot see the benefit of keeping current in the program. I m reminded of some other groups in
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 2, 2011
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                        On the contrary. I don't think much of those old-timers who just cannot see the benefit of keeping current in the program. I'm reminded of some other groups in our world today who think the world should stay like it was 500 years ago - only with Scouters, we have only 100 years to go on, so the time scale is much, much smaller. Many professional roles today are such that "continuing education" is part and parcel with maintaining status. What if your doctor thats' been practicing for 30 years never read a book or paper or went to a CE class and still treated your lung infection with the "old" drugs? I just cannot see any reason why a Scoutmaster or ASM or committee member in the job for 10, 15, 20 years can justify not keeping current with a program that changes constantly. And you don't get every nut and bolt at Roundtable.

                        I'll give you that not every change we get seems to be the best-implemented when it comes off paper and goes into real-world, and some even fail miserably. What we do today is not what we did in 1962 when I first joined up. But anyone who stands and says that change is not inevitable is way out of touch - as are those that think that taking a day of training will cause them to implode. There isn't even a test. It's just an endurance event. Get to the end of the day, get a card. It's my highly opinionated 2 cents, for what it's worth - Maybe 2 cents, maybe not. I'm not looking to pick a fight, just standing on a soapbox. But I'm done now.

                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Gerry wrote:
                        >
                        > [snip]
                        > > 10. "Maybe we ought to just go over to namby-pamby land and
                        > > do the training, you jackwagon!"
                        >
                        > You've been watching too many commercials. :/
                        >
                        > Also, the way you wrote that, it sounds like you don't think much
                        > of the newer program. ;)
                        >
                        > BTW, I don't recall that Bill said that he was the one. It could
                        > be someone else that he works with in the program.
                        >
                        > YiS,
                        >
                        > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                        > I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                        > Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                        > District Committee Member at Large
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                        > -- Stephen R. Covey
                        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                      • Herb
                        Using logic of why bother what s the point of renewing CPR? I help training with OLS sessions to keep sharp and I swear everytime I do it i learn something
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                          Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR? I help training with OLS sessions to keep sharp and I swear everytime I do it i learn something new. Sometimes it is something in the material I didn't notice and sometimes its from iteracting with other scouters, somethimes its just a new recipe or a cmp gisomo, but its always worth my time. Also working with new scouters refreshes me.

                          Old timers who don't refresh their training are not following the scout motto and slogan. Are they exempt because of seniority?

                          Herb Dulzo
                          Chicago Area Council
                        • David Wildschuetz
                          ...   Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to
                          Message 12 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                            >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                             

                            Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a
                            week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                            might be brought up once or twice a year.  Now after 10 years of doing
                            this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                            CPR .  We're not talking about a refresher course.  This is the same course that
                            will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this.  You can't
                            skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                            idea.

                            Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years
                            even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                            the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables.  Do you
                            also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to 10
                            years? 



                            And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                            transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for the
                            past 7 years?  I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                            want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"?  Really?


                            David

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ed Mitchell
                            but you want to teach an Eagle Scout how to camp ? Really? I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses. This is not
                            Message 13 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                              <Snip>

                              but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                              <snip>



                              I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                              This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                              putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                              is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                              required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                              up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                              cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                              of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                              of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                              going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                              sharp? Really?



                              Yours in Scouting



                              Ed Mitchell

                              Scoutmaster Troop 1508

                              Committee Chair Pack 4508

                              Member of the District Training Team

                              I used to be a Bobwhite (WE1-609-1-10)



                              Description: Description: cid:image001.gif@01CAA344.D3F62CF0





                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of David Wildschuetz
                              Sent: 03/03/2011 12:14 PM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?







                              >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                              ----------------------------------------------------------



                              Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice
                              a
                              week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to
                              technique
                              might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
                              this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to
                              do
                              CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
                              that
                              will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
                              can't
                              skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                              idea.

                              Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10
                              years
                              even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing
                              for
                              the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you

                              also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5
                              to 10
                              years?

                              And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                              transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
                              the
                              past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but
                              you
                              want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?

                              David

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • David Wildschuetz
                              Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And, would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not,
                              Message 14 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And,
                                would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not, why
                                do we keep going?  Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?

                                Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen.  However, I re-took
                                the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was very
                                little new information.  Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                                differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found on
                                the internet. 


                                Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since 1995,
                                re-training was not necessary".

                                I'm not against training.  I've taken and re-taken many courses.   I'm just not
                                for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                                minute roundtable session.

                                David


                                ________________________________
                                From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...>
                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?

                                 
                                <Snip>

                                but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                <snip>

                                I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                                This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                                putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                                is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                                required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                                up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                                cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                                of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                                of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                                going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                                sharp? Really?

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ed Mitchell
                                If you are only doing a full day session, I would say you are already getting a break, the course outline calls for Friday to Sunday. If you feel you already
                                Message 15 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                  If you are only doing a full day session, I would say you are already
                                  getting a break, the course outline calls for Friday to Sunday.



                                  If you feel you already know all the material, why not volunteer to staff,
                                  then you can get credit for taking it and share your knowledge with those
                                  that do not know the information.



                                  I would rather have someone take the class that does not need the
                                  information, then to have someone not take the class that does, after all
                                  every scout deserves a trained leader.



                                  Some people think they know it all because they are outdoorsmen however,
                                  what they know maybe useless to a scout trying to earn advancement in a
                                  scouting program.







                                  Yours in Scouting



                                  Ed Mitchell

                                  Scoutmaster Troop 1508

                                  Committee Chair Pack 4508

                                  Member of the District Training Team

                                  I used to be a Bobwhite (WE1-609-1-10)



                                  Description: Description: cid:image001.gif@01CAA344.D3F62CF0





                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                  Of David Wildschuetz
                                  Sent: 03/03/2011 1:45 PM
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?





                                  Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.
                                  And,
                                  would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education? If not,
                                  why
                                  do we keep going? Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?

                                  Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen. However, I
                                  re-took
                                  the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was
                                  very
                                  little new information. Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                                  differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found
                                  on
                                  the internet.

                                  Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since
                                  1995,
                                  re-training was not necessary".

                                  I'm not against training. I've taken and re-taken many courses. I'm just
                                  not
                                  for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                                  minute roundtable session.

                                  David

                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...
                                  <mailto:scoutmaster%40bsatroop1508.org> >
                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                                  <Snip>

                                  but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                  <snip>

                                  I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                                  This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                                  putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                                  is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                                  required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                                  up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                                  cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                                  of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                                  of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                                  going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                                  sharp? Really?

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Gerry
                                  Really. IOLS doesn t teach how to camp . It teaches adult leaders how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn t get that
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                    Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.

                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    > Look at it this way.  Pretend you are paramedic.  You use CPR once or twice a
                                    > week.  You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                                    > might be brought up once or twice a year.  Now after 10 years of doing
                                    > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                                    > CPR .  We're not talking about a refresher course.  This is the same course that
                                    > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this.  You can't
                                    > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                                    > idea.
                                    >
                                    > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years
                                    > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                                    > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables.  Do you
                                    > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to 10
                                    > years? 
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                                    > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for the
                                    > past 7 years?  I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                                    > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"?  Really?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > David
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Gerry
                                    From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                      From time to time, the syllabus changes. It might NOT be the same course, depending on the time frame. There have been recent changes in many of the courses. We taught the old Cub Scout Position Specifics for 10+ years - that went WAY too long before a refresh.

                                      BTW, Roundtable is actually Commissioner Service in a group setting, not a training event.

                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Continuing education is not the same thing as re-taking the same course.  And,
                                      > would you NOT consider roundtables a form of conrtinuing education?  If not, why
                                      > do we keep going?  Just to hang out with other leaders from the district?
                                      >
                                      > Maybe you teach the class differently than what I have seen.  However, I re-took
                                      > the SM/ASM specific last year because I was told I had to, and there was very
                                      > little new information.  Yes, it was different, but most if not all the
                                      > differences came out either from emailings, roundtable, or from info found on
                                      > the internet. 
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Of course 6 months later they decided that "If you've had training since 1995,
                                      > re-training was not necessary".
                                      >
                                      > I'm not against training.  I've taken and re-taken many courses.   I'm just not
                                      > for a full day session to learn the same thing that can be learned in a 30
                                      > minute roundtable session.
                                      >
                                      > David
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      > From: Ed Mitchell <scoutmaster@...>
                                      > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 2:51:50 PM
                                      > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      > <Snip>
                                      >
                                      > but you want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                      > <snip>
                                      >
                                      > I have been the course director for the past four District IOLS courses.
                                      > This is not about teaching adults or former scouts how to camp, it is about
                                      > putting everyone on the same page. In their skills and to remind them what
                                      > is allowed at a BSA camp, and what is not. I am a foster parent, I am
                                      > required by law to report any abuse of children I am aware of, I must stay
                                      > up on continuing education as a foster parent to keep my license, yet I
                                      > cannot give BSA my Forster Parent License to satisfy my YPT. Come to think
                                      > of it Doctors. Lawyers, Accountants, EMTs.they all have to do so many hours
                                      > of continuing education every year. Are you going to tell me that you are
                                      > going to tell these professionals they have to continue to keep their skills
                                      > sharp? Really?
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • ChristopherCPearson@gmail.com
                                      I ve been waiting for someone to point that out :) Walking Softly, Chris Pearson Trainer & Consultant Pearson Outdoor Education 206-550-3579 ... [Non-text
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                        I've been waiting for someone to point that out :)

                                        Walking Softly,
                                        Chris Pearson
                                        Trainer & Consultant
                                        Pearson Outdoor Education
                                        206-550-3579

                                        On Mar 3, 2011, at 6:10 PM, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

                                        > Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders
                                        > how to teach the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to
                                        > youth. If you didn't get that from your course, maybe retake it and
                                        > see what you missed last time.
                                        >
                                        > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz
                                        > <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                                        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once
                                        > or twice a
                                        > > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes
                                        > to technique
                                        > > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of
                                        > doing
                                        > > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to
                                        > learn how to do
                                        > > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the
                                        > same course that
                                        > > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do
                                        > this. You can't
                                        > > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the
                                        > newbies have no
                                        > > idea.
                                        > >
                                        > > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service
                                        > (or 10 years
                                        > > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's
                                        > been doing for
                                        > > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all
                                        > roundtables. Do you
                                        > > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for
                                        > those 5 to 10
                                        > > years?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds
                                        > that just
                                        > > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after
                                        > living it for the
                                        > > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some
                                        > degree, but you
                                        > > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > David
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • David Wildschuetz
                                        Okay....I ll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                          Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                          lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                          an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                          Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked for some
                                          peripheral comment I make.



                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 8:10:49 PM
                                          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                                          Really. IOLS doesn't teach "how to camp". It teaches adult leaders how to teach
                                          the outdoor skills Tenderfoot thru First Class to youth. If you didn't get that
                                          from your course, maybe retake it and see what you missed last time.


                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >>>Using logic of why bother what's the point of renewing CPR?
                                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Look at it this way. Pretend you are paramedic. You use CPR once or twice a
                                          > week. You attend staff meetings once a month, where minor changes to technique
                                          >
                                          > might be brought up once or twice a year. Now after 10 years of doing
                                          > this, your boss tells you you need to go to a training class to learn how to do
                                          >
                                          > CPR . We're not talking about a refresher course. This is the same course
                                          >that
                                          >
                                          > will be attended by people who have never been taught how to do this. You
                                          >can't
                                          >
                                          > skip items that an experienced medic would know because the newbies have no
                                          > idea.
                                          >
                                          > Now, you want to send a Scoutmaster (or ASM) with 5 years service (or 10 years

                                          > even) back through the entire course on how to do the job he's been doing for
                                          > the past 5 (or 10) years, and attended 80 to 90% of all roundtables. Do you
                                          > also send him to OLS when he's been camping nearly every month for those 5 to
                                          >10
                                          >
                                          > years?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > And speaking of OLS, why should new leaders who are 18 year olds that just
                                          > transitioned from youth to adult be required to take OLS after living it for
                                          >the
                                          >
                                          > past 7 years? I can see the SM/ASM specific training to some degree, but you
                                          > want to teach an Eagle Scout "how to camp"? Really?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > David
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Connie Knie
                                          Ok I hope that I am not nit picking because I really don t mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can t teach!! Why just because they
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                            Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach anyone anything...........

                                            Connie

                                            --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:



                                            Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                            lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time.  Are you saying that
                                            an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?   



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • David Wildschuetz
                                            Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach. But, that s not been my experience. Usually it s just teaching the skills, and
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                              Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders *how* to teach.
                                              But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's just teaching the skills, and
                                              seems to be targeted towards adults new to Scouting.

                                              Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier suggestion and work
                                              staff on it this fall.


                                              ________________________________
                                              From: Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>
                                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Thu, March 3, 2011 9:45:54 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: What's Changed?


                                              Ok I hope that I am not "nit picking" because I really don't mean to. But
                                              seriously I do know 18 year old Eagle Scouts who can't teach!! Why just because
                                              they are Eagle Scouts is it assumed they don't need training? I mean of course
                                              they do. Just because they have made the rank of Eagle does not imbue them with
                                              the knowledge and training it takes to successfully and with confidence teach
                                              younger scouts all of the skills they may or may not posesss. I know many troops
                                              who use their scouts as instructors and some that those scouts never teach
                                              anyone anything...........

                                              Connie

                                              --- On Thu, 3/3/11, David Wildschuetz <dwildschuetz@...> wrote:

                                              Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in IOLS, but really a
                                              lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts all the time. Are you saying that
                                              an 18 year old Eagle Scout has to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Scouter Chuck
                                              ... and in a later post; ... I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the question... I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                David Wildschuetz wrote:

                                                > Okay....I'll admit that I over-simplified what is learned in
                                                > IOLS, but really a lot of what I recall of it is used by Scouts
                                                > all the time. Are you saying that an 18 year old Eagle Scout has
                                                > to be taught how to teach outdoor skills?

                                                > Why is it every time I ask this question, all I get is nit-picked
                                                > for some peripheral comment I make.

                                                and in a later post;

                                                > Okay...I can see your point if IOLS teaches these new leaders
                                                > *how* to teach. But, that's not been my experience. Usually it's
                                                > just teaching the skills, and seems to be targeted towards adults
                                                > new to Scouting.
                                                >
                                                > Maybe things have changed. I may just take up the earlier
                                                > suggestion and work staff on it this fall.

                                                I can see both sides of this issue. But in answer to the
                                                question...

                                                I have been asked by some Scouters why they need the basic position
                                                specific training when they were a Scout from 11 to 18 years old.
                                                I felt the same way when I first became a leader -- at least until
                                                I attended my first training.

                                                The parts of the program that a boy sees as a Scout are those
                                                parts that are intended to help him learn the skills necessary to
                                                succeed in life (at least that's the ideal), and advance as a
                                                Scout. He sees the campouts, the camporees, the Troop meetings,
                                                and looks on them as "the way things work". I.e., it's all "fun".

                                                What the boy doesn't see are the many hours of work behind the
                                                scenes by the Troop Committee, and the Troop leaders, to make the
                                                program fun and successful. These are the things that the brand
                                                new Eagle who just crossed over to be an adult ASM (or SA) needs
                                                to be taught.

                                                When these aren't taught in the training, it fails both the
                                                trainee and the trainer, as well as the program.

                                                What helps aggravate the problem is what some point out -- that
                                                the older Scouters go to the training and pretty much don't learn
                                                much. In many cases, they feel, and not too wrongly, that they've
                                                wasted their time.

                                                To relate it to a trade, as others have done, is not really all
                                                that helpful, because of the differences between trades/professions
                                                and the BSA program. I could say that it's like an Electrician
                                                keeping up on the latest codes, but what does that really say?
                                                All the building codes do is make sure that the basics are done to
                                                a certain standard. Maybe that's what we need to consider in our
                                                training.

                                                YiS,

                                                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                                                I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                                                Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                                                District Committee Member at Large
                                                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                                -- Stephen R. Covey
                                                -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              • Scouter Chuck
                                                A couple of points that I forgot to make: 1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original question Bill asked, which was what has changed
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Mar 3, 2011
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                                                  A couple of points that I forgot to make:

                                                  1. We have departed significantly from the scope of the original
                                                  question Bill asked, which was what has changed enough to make an
                                                  "old timer" need to retake the course.

                                                  2. It may be that in our rush to try to get 100% trained leaders,
                                                  that somewhere along the line we're skimping on what the training
                                                  really should cover.

                                                  YiS,

                                                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                                                  I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                                                  Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                                                  District Committee Member at Large
                                                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                                                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                • tvcubtrainers
                                                  Hello all, Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I d like to offer the following: 1. IOLS is indeed about
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Mar 4, 2011
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                                                    Hello all,

                                                    Having taken a well-run IOLS course last year and now a Troop Guide for a course this year, I'd like to offer the following:

                                                    1. IOLS is indeed about teaching others to teach the Tenderfoot to First Class skills. However, it is also about teaching the patrol method and how to interact with the boys. An important part of the course is the experience of being in a patrol and working with the group dynamics of such. As such, leadership is about doing your best and leading from the front. What kind of an example is a leader setting if they say, Heck no... I know all this and don't need any more training. I'm not a fan of taking training for training's sake but if a leader hasn't taken the most recent course, I'd hope that they'd consider taking it if nothing else but to get the experience and the fun that a weekend with other like-minded leaders will get. This isn't basic training like boot camp in the army, it's leadership training done in an experiential way that can be really positive on us to help the youth we have the privilege to serve.

                                                    2. I've taken the course with Eagle Scouts. They actually got a lot out of the course from the experience with the older men and women who may have kids in the program. They were able to hear about the adult part of scouting which helped them to prepare for their transition from youth leadership to adult leadership. The two Eagle scouts that went through the program were very glad they did it for this reason even though they were very skilled in "technicals" already.

                                                    3. The best leader should learn to be a follower first. Or be reminded of what it is to be a follower every so often. This is a great opportunity for those are experienced who really want to be the
                                                    best leaders possible to be reminded about what it is like to be a youth and to share their experience with others through the course as well. Just the time around the campfire and telling "stories" can be a great help to new and experienced leaders alike. Servant leadership.

                                                    Thanks for allowing me to share my experiences and thoughts here. I hope they will help some to make their decisions for the benefit of the scouts.

                                                    Phil Weiss
                                                    ADC, Twin Valley District
                                                    WB3-28-10
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