Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Scouter_T] Interesting YP interpretation on outings

Expand Messages
  • Bill Ferguson
    Hi, Connie, This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an unsuspecting (and untrained) COR s bottom. I am disappointed by leaders who cut
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 5, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi, Connie,

      This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an unsuspecting
      (and untrained) COR's bottom. I am disappointed by leaders who cut corners
      out of convenience or attitude and who selfishly (frankly) create a
      liability for their colleagues. Your point emphasizes how important training
      is for everyone, both for the good of our Scouts, and for the benefit (and
      protection) of leaders (all the way up the chain).

      Thanks for providing that quote from G2SS.

      YIS

      Bill

      On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > Here is an excerp from the G2SS. I have recently had this interpreted to me
      > as this. As long as there are two leaders that meet the criteria a Cub Scout
      > pack can go on a trip or outing with only two leaders no matter how many
      > scouts there are............ Now if they are attending a council sponsored
      > camp or event that changes according to camp standards or any rule imposed
      > by the council itself............but a trip to the zoo??? Looks as though it
      > could be interpreted that way..........interesting.........also in my opinon
      > it really makes some Charter Org (who never have any idea what a unit is
      > doing) ultimately responsible if a lawsuit occurs because there was not
      > "adequate supervision"
      >
      > Opinions?
      >
      >
      >
      > Two-deep leadership.
      > Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a
      > participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on
      > all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for
      > ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.
      >
      >
      > Connie
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Connie Knie
      I don t believe I have ever seen a more important reason to have an involved and consience COR.............. Can you imagine if something really got as far as
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 5, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        I don't believe I have ever seen a more important reason to have an involved and consience COR.............. Can you imagine if something really got as far as a lawsuit how fast Scouts would be dropped from schools and churches?
        I mean who wants that kind of liability?
        Connie

        --- On Wed, 1/5/11, Bill Ferguson <wbfergusoniii@...> wrote:

        Hi, Connie,

        This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an unsuspecting
        (and untrained) COR's bottom.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bill Ferguson
        Hi, Connie, There s a larger issue here, too. I agree with you about the size and seriousness of our potential legal liabilities as leaders, CORs, etc. On the
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 5, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi, Connie,

          There's a larger issue here, too. I agree with you about the size and
          seriousness of our potential legal liabilities as leaders, CORs, etc. On the
          other hand, isn't it sad that we have to use civil law to drive leaders to
          training that they should do anyway to benefit/protect their Scouts (as well
          as themselves)?

          I suppose that, as an experienced Scouter whom I respect as a mentor puts
          it, "You've got to start somewhere." So, if civil law brings more Scouts and
          Scouters to the Scout Law and Methods, then so be it.

          Best and YIS,

          Bill


          On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > I don't believe I have ever seen a more important reason to have an
          > involved and consience COR.............. Can you imagine if something really
          > got as far as a lawsuit how fast Scouts would be dropped from schools and
          > churches?
          > I mean who wants that kind of liability?
          > Connie
          >
          > --- On Wed, 1/5/11, Bill Ferguson <wbfergusoniii@...<wbfergusoniii%40gmail.com>>
          > wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Connie,
          >
          > This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an unsuspecting
          > (and untrained) COR's bottom.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Fred Skrotzki
          While that is what is written there are other items that also need to be taken into account and in reality that would probably not happen. Tigers need their
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 5, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            While that is what is written there are other items that also need to be
            taken into account and in reality that would probably not happen.

            Tigers need their tiger parent so if any tigers go you already have another
            adult attending for each one present.

            Using Mini vans you can only get let's say 6 per so you'd never travel to an
            event like that with more then 12 boys and two adults who drive separately.
            Yes there are those parents who believe and act like BSA means Baby Sitters
            of America so they will do a drop and run. To someplace like the zoo it
            probably takes as much time to get there and back twice as the whole trip
            would last so they would most likely not leave.

            My local Pack and Troop go one step further and do three deep.
            Justification at the troop level is simple For a weekend. Somebody get's
            hurt, sick, emergency call from work, home etc. pulls a single adult from
            only two and they whole group has to pack up and leave. Now with 3 deep you
            can adjust and adapt. Kid get's hurt, needs to go home, etc. An adult, his
            son along with the injured one go. The rest of the group can still stay.
            We have had it happen enough that unless there are three adults we just
            don't go.


            -----Original Message-----
            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Bill Ferguson
            Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 11:44 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Interesting YP interpretation on outings

            Hi, Connie,

            There's a larger issue here, too. I agree with you about the size and
            seriousness of our potential legal liabilities as leaders, CORs, etc. On the
            other hand, isn't it sad that we have to use civil law to drive leaders to
            training that they should do anyway to benefit/protect their Scouts (as well
            as themselves)?

            I suppose that, as an experienced Scouter whom I respect as a mentor puts
            it, "You've got to start somewhere." So, if civil law brings more Scouts and
            Scouters to the Scout Law and Methods, then so be it.

            Best and YIS,

            Bill


            On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Connie Knie
            <cknie23100@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > I don't believe I have ever seen a more important reason to have an
            > involved and consience COR.............. Can you imagine if something
            > really got as far as a lawsuit how fast Scouts would be dropped from
            > schools and churches?
            > I mean who wants that kind of liability?
            > Connie
            >
            > --- On Wed, 1/5/11, Bill Ferguson
            > <wbfergusoniii@...<wbfergusoniii%40gmail.com>>
            > wrote:
            >
            > Hi, Connie,
            >
            > This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an
            > unsuspecting (and untrained) COR's bottom.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com

            Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Gerry
            I spent a fair amount of time as a Cub Scout leader, and I can t imagine who would WANT to take a Pack on any excursion, even a trip to the zoo, with only one
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 5, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I spent a fair amount of time as a Cub Scout leader, and I can't imagine who would WANT to take a Pack on any excursion, even a trip to the zoo, with only one other adult. I would not want to take the responsibility for such a large group, even if that were to be only 8 or 10 boys. If the parents don't want to come along, then everyone stay home.

              We always pushed the question at parents, "WHY would you want a your boy's experience in Scouting driven by a total stranger? YOU need to be involved and provide the guidance he needs." The non-involved parents who are quick to suggest improvements to the program need to be handed an application so they can implement their strategy officially and leave the nice view from the cheap seats behind.

              My 2 cents.....
              Gerry

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Bill Ferguson <wbfergusoniii@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi, Connie,
              >
              > This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an unsuspecting
              > (and untrained) COR's bottom. I am disappointed by leaders who cut corners
              > out of convenience or attitude and who selfishly (frankly) create a
              > liability for their colleagues. Your point emphasizes how important training
              > is for everyone, both for the good of our Scouts, and for the benefit (and
              > protection) of leaders (all the way up the chain).
              >
              > Thanks for providing that quote from G2SS.
              >
              > YIS
              >
              > Bill
              >
              > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...>wrote:
              >
              > >
              > >
              > > Here is an excerp from the G2SS. I have recently had this interpreted to me
              > > as this. As long as there are two leaders that meet the criteria a Cub Scout
              > > pack can go on a trip or outing with only two leaders no matter how many
              > > scouts there are............ Now if they are attending a council sponsored
              > > camp or event that changes according to camp standards or any rule imposed
              > > by the council itself............but a trip to the zoo??? Looks as though it
              > > could be interpreted that way..........interesting.........also in my opinon
              > > it really makes some Charter Org (who never have any idea what a unit is
              > > doing) ultimately responsible if a lawsuit occurs because there was not
              > > "adequate supervision"
              > >
              > > Opinions?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Two-deep leadership.
              > > Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a
              > > participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on
              > > all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for
              > > ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities.
              > >
              > >
              > > Connie
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • marksowden@ymail.com
              This is a very interesting topic, in particular the previous quote about having a conscientious and involved COR rather than one who has no idea what the unit
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 6, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                This is a very interesting topic, in particular the previous quote about having a conscientious and involved COR rather than one who has no idea what the unit is doing. Previously this group has debated whether CORs need YPT as they are not direct contact leaders--and in fact--during last month's rechartering of my Pack, the COR, who has had YPT but is now out of date is NOT flagged as YPT non-compliant--as a couple of my Den Leaders were. I did offer our COR the option of completing it which he did. Perhaps, for some of the liability issues described above, and the risk of losing Chartered orgs, BSA should include YPT for CORs as mandatory too. Many COs are churches, many of which already have their own "safe church" practices--this should make them very aware of the need and encourage them to understand BSA's YPT and philosophy.

                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Skrotzki" <fred-scouts@...> wrote:
                >
                > While that is what is written there are other items that also need to be
                > taken into account and in reality that would probably not happen.
                >
                > Tigers need their tiger parent so if any tigers go you already have another
                > adult attending for each one present.
                >
                > Using Mini vans you can only get let's say 6 per so you'd never travel to an
                > event like that with more then 12 boys and two adults who drive separately.
                > Yes there are those parents who believe and act like BSA means Baby Sitters
                > of America so they will do a drop and run. To someplace like the zoo it
                > probably takes as much time to get there and back twice as the whole trip
                > would last so they would most likely not leave.
                >
                > My local Pack and Troop go one step further and do three deep.
                > Justification at the troop level is simple For a weekend. Somebody get's
                > hurt, sick, emergency call from work, home etc. pulls a single adult from
                > only two and they whole group has to pack up and leave. Now with 3 deep you
                > can adjust and adapt. Kid get's hurt, needs to go home, etc. An adult, his
                > son along with the injured one go. The rest of the group can still stay.
                > We have had it happen enough that unless there are three adults we just
                > don't go.
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                > Of Bill Ferguson
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 11:44 AM
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Interesting YP interpretation on outings
                >
                > Hi, Connie,
                >
                > There's a larger issue here, too. I agree with you about the size and
                > seriousness of our potential legal liabilities as leaders, CORs, etc. On the
                > other hand, isn't it sad that we have to use civil law to drive leaders to
                > training that they should do anyway to benefit/protect their Scouts (as well
                > as themselves)?
                >
                > I suppose that, as an experienced Scouter whom I respect as a mentor puts
                > it, "You've got to start somewhere." So, if civil law brings more Scouts and
                > Scouters to the Scout Law and Methods, then so be it.
                >
                > Best and YIS,
                >
                > Bill
                >
                >
                > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Connie Knie
                > <cknie23100@...>wrote:
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > I don't believe I have ever seen a more important reason to have an
                > > involved and consience COR.............. Can you imagine if something
                > > really got as far as a lawsuit how fast Scouts would be dropped from
                > > schools and churches?
                > > I mean who wants that kind of liability?
                > > Connie
                > >
                > > --- On Wed, 1/5/11, Bill Ferguson
                > > <wbfergusoniii@...<wbfergusoniii%40gmail.com>>
                > > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi, Connie,
                > >
                > > This is exactly the kind of sling that is waiting to catch an
                > > unsuspecting (and untrained) COR's bottom.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • Scouter Chuck
                ... Absolutely! [snip] ... [snip rest] What we need to remember, and most people tend to overlook, is that the 2 deep in the G2SS is a MINIMUM. I.e., the
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 6, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fred Skrotzki wrote:

                  > While that is what is written there are other items that also
                  > need to be taken into account

                  Absolutely!

                  [snip]
                  > My local Pack and Troop go one step further and do three deep.
                  [snip rest]

                  What we need to remember, and most people tend to overlook, is
                  that the "2 deep" in the G2SS is a MINIMUM. I.e., the more the
                  better. In my personal opinion, having only 3 leaders on an
                  outing is almost as bad as having only 2.


                  There are also state and local laws which need to be taken into
                  account, such as "1 adult for every 5 children", or whatever the
                  standard is for the age of the Cubs and what the local goverment
                  has written in the statutes.

                  BTW, looking back to the previous discussion on Tiger Cub Parent/
                  Partners needing YPT, I asked the District Commissioner of my
                  District about that at the District Committee Meeting last Tuesday.
                  He said that absolutely the TCPP should have YPT. His reasoning
                  is because they are in direct contact with the other boys in the
                  Den, as well as their own child(ren).

                  Also, we need to remember that YPT, the G2SS, and a minimum of "2
                  deep" in leadership is there to protect US.

                  YiS,

                  Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                  I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                  Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                  District Committee Member at Large
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                  -- Stephen R. Covey
                  -------------------------------------------------------------------
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.