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Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

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  • danielgrummert
    As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer s and gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to do it. The
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 26, 2010
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      As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer's and gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to do it.
      The Trainer's Edge allows Woodbadge Staff and NOAC staff to practice these skills and insures that they know their material before presenting it.

      From what I read, the Edge replaces the TDC. If this is true, and the Edge is only for specific instructors (WOODBADGE and NOAC), where do new Roundtable STaff, District Trainers and I suppose, these previously listed "instructors" get their basic training? THey Edge seems ot assume you have had it already. I am so confused.
      Dan
    • Donna F. Williams
      I so agree!!!! They are two completely different courses! Donna
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 26, 2010
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        I so agree!!!! They are two completely different courses! Donna




        <http://quartermasterstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Co
        de=PC-T6&Category_Code=WoodBadgePatches> Bear PatchDa' Bears.... ROCK!
        SR- 953

        Donna F. Williams

        Gulf Ridge Trainer

        Unit Commissioner



        11315 McMullen Loop

        Riverview, FL 33569



        813-671-4173 williamsdfw@...



        As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer's and
        gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to
        do it.
        The Trainer's Edge allows Woodbadge Staff and NOAC staff to practice these
        skills and insures that they know their material before presenting it.

        From what I read, the Edge replaces the TDC. If this is true, and the Edge
        is only for specific instructors (WOODBADGE and NOAC), where do new
        Roundtable STaff, District Trainers and I suppose, these previously listed
        "instructors" get their basic training? THey Edge seems ot assume you have
        had it already. I am so confused.
        Dan

        _._,___



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim von Schmacht
        One minor point - NYLT staff, not NOAC. Jim von Schmacht Loma Prieta District Training Chair From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 26, 2010
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          One minor point - NYLT staff, not NOAC.

          Jim von Schmacht
          Loma Prieta District Training Chair

          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of danielgrummert
          Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2010 8:01 PM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Scouter_T] Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge



          As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer's and gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to do it.
          The Trainer's Edge allows Woodbadge Staff and NOAC staff to practice these skills and insures that they know their material before presenting it.

          From what I read, the Edge replaces the TDC. If this is true, and the Edge is only for specific instructors (WOODBADGE and NOAC), where do new Roundtable STaff, District Trainers and I suppose, these previously listed "instructors" get their basic training? THey Edge seems ot assume you have had it already. I am so confused.
          Dan



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Daniel Grummert
          I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train new, first time trainer s on the
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 27, 2010
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            I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time trainer's" on the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give them the skills and confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to "throw them to the wolves" and has a "sink or swim" perspective. Not much time spent on preperation or am I looking at the syllabus wrong. I have not taken the course yet.

            Dan

            The Trainer's EDGE





            Purpose of the Course

            The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA 500) as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and NYLT staffs. The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide and help develop the platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to supplement the practice offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff development, with a focus on the participant, while raising the level of skill a trainer brings to the staff experience. Only practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended to "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-on experience in methods and media.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Sears
            Dan and Fellow Scouting Trainers, Greetings! A similar discussion has occurred on a few other Scouting blogs and forums. The first page of the Training EDGE,
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 27, 2010
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              Dan and Fellow Scouting Trainers,

              Greetings!

              A similar discussion has occurred on a few other Scouting blogs and forums. The first page of the Training EDGE, says that it replaces TDC for the purposes of WB and NYLT. Many of my friends have read, EDGE has replaced TDC (period), but they do not read any further. I've been verbally told that's it. Bottom line. No more discussion.

              But EDGE is more for teaching skills. Skills that are repetitive. EDGE is not for teaching concepts. i.e. What leadership means. What are styles of leadership. How to plan. EDGE can teach a physical skill. How to raise a dining fly. How to build an axe yard. I personally like EDGE, but I do not think it is a "catch all" solution.

              My own local council has ceased teaching TDC, although I can see other councils still advertise TDC on the webpages and newsletters.

              For my fellow district trainers. I still conduct TDC and EDGE, in a one day seminar. And I explain the reason why I enjoy both sessions.

              Our BSA continuously modifies and changes merit badges, belt loops, rank requirements, and every few years basic leader training takes a change. BSA invites seasoned Scouters, experts in recreation, leaders in business, and top notch professional primary-secondary educators. Sometimes, seasoned Scouters enjoy the changes; sometimes (at least myself) I scratch my head wondering what they were thinking.

              Hopefully, BSA takes another look at TDC and EDGE and brings about a new method for preparing district trainers, Pow Wow/University trainers, and Roundtable Commissioners.

              Scouting Forever and Venture On!

              Dave









              ________________________________
              From: danielgrummert <dangrummert@...>
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sun, June 27, 2010 5:00:45 AM
              Subject: [Scouter_T] Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge


              As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer's and gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to do it.
              The Trainer's Edge allows Woodbadge Staff and NOAC staff to practice these skills and insures that they know their material before presenting it.

              From what I read, the Edge replaces the TDC. If this is true, and the Edge is only for specific instructors (WOODBADGE and NOAC), where do new Roundtable STaff, District Trainers and I suppose, these previously listed "instructors" get their basic training? THey Edge seems ot assume you have had it already. I am so confused.
              Dan







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sandra Martens
              it was:  TDC was the training required for Cub Scout trainers and Pack trainers, with EDGE for NYLT and Woodbadge trainers. they are being combined in a new
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 27, 2010
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                it was:  TDC was the training required for Cub Scout trainers and Pack trainers, with EDGE for NYLT and Woodbadge trainers.

                they are being combined in a new course, supposedly coming out this summer.  Until then, the EDGE has NOT replaced TDC.  they are 2 separate courses.

                as for the training new trainers- that has been my complaint for a long time.  EDGE assumes you know how to train already, know the basic techniques.  they assume NYLT and Woodbadge trainers were Cub Scout trainers, and that definitely is not true.  Most of our Boy Scout trainers were never Cub Scout trainers, and only have Trainer's EDGE.

                Sandy OWL

                --- On Sat, 6/26/10, danielgrummert <dangrummert@...> wrote:

                From: danielgrummert <dangrummert@...>
                Subject: [Scouter_T] Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, June 26, 2010, 10:00 PM







                 









                As I see it, the TDC teaches basic teaching skills to new trainer's and gives them ideas to consider when preparing to teach and examples of how to do it.

                The Trainer's Edge allows Woodbadge Staff and NOAC staff to practice these skills and insures that they know their material before presenting it.



                From what I read, the Edge replaces the TDC. If this is true, and the Edge is only for specific instructors (WOODBADGE and NOAC), where do new Roundtable STaff, District Trainers and I suppose, these previously listed "instructors" get their basic training? THey Edge seems ot assume you have had it already. I am so confused.

                Dan

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Elaine Ziegler
                Dan, I agree with you. I have staffed EDGE several times and in my experience they miss a lot of what was in TDC. Quite a bit of what was taught in TDC is
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 27, 2010
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                  Dan, I agree with you. I have staffed EDGE several times and in my
                  experience they miss a lot of what was in TDC. Quite a bit of what
                  was taught in TDC is covered during the Module where the patrols
                  prepare 5 minute presentations on different topics. Those topics are
                  actually very important things that they need to know but so much of
                  the focus is on the presenting and its subsequent feedback that the
                  actual subject matter is overlooked.

                  I like EDGE but I think it would be of more use as an advanced
                  training. TDC should be Training 101 and EDGE should be Training
                  102. Just my opinion.

                  Elaine Ziegler
                  Arrowhead District Training Chair
                  Greater Alabama Council


                  On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:07 AM, Daniel Grummert wrote:

                  > I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual
                  > for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time
                  > trainer's" on the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give
                  > them the skills and confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to
                  > "throw them to the wolves" and has a "sink or swim" perspective.
                  > Not much time spent on preperation or am I looking at the syllabus
                  > wrong. I have not taken the course yet.
                  >
                  > Dan
                  >
                  > The Trainer's EDGE
                  >
                  > Purpose of the Course
                  >
                  > The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA
                  > 500) as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and
                  > NYLT staffs. The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide
                  > and help develop the platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to
                  > supplement the practice offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff
                  > development, with a focus on the participant, while raising the
                  > level of skill a trainer brings to the staff experience. Only
                  > practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended to
                  > "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-
                  > on experience in methods and media.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • mpabsher
                  ... Our Council is still offering TDC twice a year for new trainers and EDGE once a year for Wood Badge and NYLT staff, as well as for other trainers that want
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jun 28, 2010
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                    >
                    Our Council is still offering TDC twice a year for new trainers and EDGE once a year for Wood Badge and NYLT staff, as well as for other trainers that want an advanced course.

                    We feel EDGE is an excellent course but does not replace TDC. Taking EDGE without TDC leaves a lot of questions unanswered. Personally, I feel there is a need for both courses.

                    Marianne Absher
                    VP - HR & Training
                    Occoneechee Council
                    Raleigh, NC
                  • Gerry
                    Pack Trainers don t do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                      Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.

                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Grummert" <dangrummert@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time trainer's" on the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give them the skills and confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to "throw them to the wolves" and has a "sink or swim" perspective. Not much time spent on preperation or am I looking at the syllabus wrong. I have not taken the course yet.
                      >
                      > Dan
                      >
                      > The Trainer's EDGE
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Purpose of the Course
                      >
                      > The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA 500) as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and NYLT staffs. The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide and help develop the platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to supplement the practice offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff development, with a focus on the participant, while raising the level of skill a trainer brings to the staff experience. Only practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended to "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-on experience in methods and media.
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Sandra Martens
                      the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role.  it should be coming out soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders.  National is
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                        the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role.  it should be coming out soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders.  National is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the district or council level.

                        Sandy OWL

                        --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

                        From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>
                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 2:02 PM







                         









                        Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.



                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Grummert" <dangrummert@...> wrote:

                        >

                        > I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time trainer's" on the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give them the skills and confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to "throw them to the wolves" and has a "sink or swim" perspective. Not much time spent on preperation or am I looking at the syllabus wrong. I have not taken the course yet.

                        >

                        > Dan

                        >

                        > The Trainer's EDGE

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > Purpose of the Course

                        >

                        > The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA 500) as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and NYLT staffs. The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide and help develop the platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to supplement the practice offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff development, with a focus on the participant, while raising the level of skill a trainer brings to the staff experience. Only practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended to "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-on experience in methods and media.

                        >

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Michael Crothers
                        This has to be a joke. How do we know what they are training and if the training reported is actually done. and by the is Pack Trainer going to be a mandatory
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                          This has to be a joke.

                          How do we know what they are training and if the training reported is actually done.

                          and by the is Pack Trainer going to be a mandatory recharter requirement?

                          I don't the numbers of Pack trainer in your council, but mine has only a few you can count on one hand.

                          Yours In Scouting





                          Mike Crothers





                          I used to be a good old Bob White NE-CS-11

                          and a good old staffer too NE-CS-13

                          and I used to be a good old Fox WE4-57-06

                          --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...> wrote:

                          From: Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 2:32 PM







                           









                          the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role.  it should be coming out soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders.  National is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the district or council level.



                          Sandy OWL



                          --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:



                          From: Gerry <gerrymoon32817@...>

                          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

                          Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 2:02 PM



                           



                          Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.



                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Daniel Grummert" <dangrummert@...> wrote:



                          >



                          > I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time trainer's" on the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give them the skills and confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to "throw them to the wolves" and has a "sink or swim" perspective. Not much time spent on preperation or am I looking at the syllabus wrong. I have not taken the course yet.



                          >



                          > Dan



                          >



                          > The Trainer's EDGE



                          >



                          >



                          >



                          >



                          >



                          > Purpose of the Course



                          >



                          > The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA 500) as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and NYLT staffs. The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide and help develop the platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to supplement the practice offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff development, with a focus on the participant, while raising the level of skill a trainer brings to the staff experience. Only practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended to "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-on experience in methods and media.



                          >



                          >



                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • gottshalld@aol.com
                          Sandy, Thanks for the information. Will National be developing a specific training module for them as a part of the cub leader-specific training program? Most
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                            Sandy,

                            Thanks for the information.

                            Will National be developing a specific training module for them as a part of the cub leader-specific training program?

                            Most packs in my council do not have a pack trainer or if they do it is in "patch only." Will this become a position that must be filled to recharter your unit?

                            Any information would be helpful.

                            Thanks again.

                            Dave Gottshall


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:32 pm
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge





                            the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role. it should be coming out soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders. National is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the district or council level.

                            Sandy OWL




                            __




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Teresa Hall
                            There is already a Pack Trainer module in Cub Scout Position-Specific Training. It s the last in the book from the 2008 revamp. Teresa Hall ... [Non-text
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                              There is already a Pack Trainer module in Cub Scout Position-Specific
                              Training. It's the last in the book from the 2008 revamp.

                              Teresa Hall


                              On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 4:52 PM, <gottshalld@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > Sandy,
                              >
                              > Thanks for the information.
                              >
                              > Will National be developing a specific training module for them as a part
                              > of the cub leader-specific training program?
                              >
                              > Most packs in my council do not have a pack trainer or if they do it is in
                              > "patch only." Will this become a position that must be filled to recharter
                              > your unit?
                              >
                              > Any information would be helpful.
                              >
                              > Thanks again.
                              >
                              > Dave Gottshall
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...>
                              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:32 pm
                              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The
                              > Trainer's Edge
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role. it should be coming out
                              > soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders. National
                              > is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the district
                              > or council level.
                              >
                              > Sandy OWL
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > __
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • tttrack@aol.com
                              This smacks of anybody can train, and we can brag that everyone is trained (at least on paper), so what a wonderful job we have done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                                This smacks of "anybody" can train, and we can brag that "everyone' is
                                trained (at least on paper), so what a wonderful job we have
                                done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                Forget the fact that we have very few Pack Trainers.

                                We spend a lot of time to train folks to put on training, one-on-one, small
                                group, training events, Wood Badge, etc. but apparently it is not as
                                difficult to find good trainers as we thought. Every Pack will be able to come
                                up with a good, qualified trainer.

                                Apparently it only works in Cub Scouting, as I do not see the same approach
                                in Boy Scouting/Venturing/Exploring/Varsity.

                                Sort of like, boys who make it to First Class stay in Scouting, so let's
                                make it easier/faster for them to make First Class. I'm sure that it had
                                nothing to do with the fact that boys who were the most interested and
                                dedicated made it to First Class, so they stayed in the program because it both
                                challenged and interested them.

                                After all this time, nothing should surprise me, but it does. Off my soap
                                box and try to sweeten the grapes and soldier on.

                                Tom Travis
                                OHC


                                In a message dated 6/29/2010 5:32:35 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                sandyowl1@... writes:




                                the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role. it should be coming out
                                soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders.
                                National is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the
                                district or council level.

                                Sandy OWL

                                --- On Tue, 6/29/10, Gerry <_gerrymoon32817@..._
                                (mailto:gerrymoon32817@...) > wrote:

                                From: Gerry <_gerrymoon32817@..._ (mailto:gerrymoon32817@...) >
                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The
                                Trainer's Edge
                                To: _scouter_t@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com)
                                Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 2:02 PM



                                Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything
                                beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is
                                outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the
                                trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info
                                available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the
                                classes.

                                --- In _scouter_t@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                "Daniel Grummert" <dangrummert@...> wrote:

                                >

                                > I stand corrected. Thanks. I also found this on line in the manual for
                                the edge. Still not sure how we are to train "new, first time trainer's" on
                                the basics. What do I teach a "Pack Trainer" to give them the skills and
                                confidence needed to teach. The Edge appears to "throw them to the wolves"
                                and has a "sink or swim" perspective. Not much time spent on preperation or
                                am I looking at the syllabus wrong. I have not taken the course yet.

                                >

                                > Dan

                                >

                                > The Trainer's EDGE

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                > Purpose of the Course

                                >

                                > The Trainer's EDGE replaces the Trainer Development Conference (BSA 500)
                                as the required train-the- trainer course for Wood Badge and NYLT staffs.
                                The purpose of the Trainer's EDGE course is to provide and help develop the
                                platform skills of a trainer. It is meant to supplement the practice
                                offered through Wood Badge and NYLT staff development, with a focus on the
                                participant, while raising the level of skill a trainer brings to the staff
                                experience. Only practice can polish these skills, but this course is intended
                                to "train the trainer" on behaviors and resources while offering hands-on
                                experience in methods and media.

                                >

                                >

                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Gerry
                                There has been a Pack Trainer module in Cub Position Specifics for a couple years- since they last revised the syllabus. It remains in this year s new cub
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jun 29, 2010
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                                  There has been a Pack Trainer module in Cub Position Specifics for a couple years- since they last revised the syllabus. It remains in this year's new cub syllabus too.

                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, gottshalld@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Sandy,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for the information.
                                  >
                                  > Will National be developing a specific training module for them as a part of the cub leader-specific training program?
                                  >
                                  > Most packs in my council do not have a pack trainer or if they do it is in "patch only." Will this become a position that must be filled to recharter your unit?
                                  >
                                  > Any information would be helpful.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks again.
                                  >
                                  > Dave Gottshall
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Sandra Martens <sandyowl1@...>
                                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Tue, Jun 29, 2010 5:32 pm
                                  > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > the pack trainer is getting a more enhanced role. it should be coming out soon, but pack trainers will also be training their pack leaders. National is looking at most training being done at the pack level, not the district or council level.
                                  >
                                  > Sandy OWL
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > __
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • techrescuemedic
                                  I m sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.

                                    I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.

                                    Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.

                                    I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".

                                    Climbing off the soap-box now...

                                    C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                    Big Pines District Training Chair
                                    Crater Lake Council
                                    Medford, Oregon

                                    I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                    I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                    I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057

                                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.
                                    >
                                  • gottshalld@aol.com
                                    C.J. your experience may not be typical. Of the very few pack trainers that I have come across, they fall into two categories: - district or council training
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      C.J. your experience may not be typical. Of the very few pack trainers that I have come across, they fall into two categories:
                                      - district or council training staff that are associated with a pack; and
                                      - a pack adult that got volunteered into the job.

                                      In many cases, member of the first group do exactly what you described.

                                      In many cases, members of the second group do exactly what Gerry describes or may be even less.

                                      and there lies the problem ...

                                      For units with PTs in the second group, much of the actual training rests somewhere else, that being at the district or council level.

                                      For units with PTs in the first group, they have the resources and skills to make "things happen" internally.

                                      Two groups, two different sets of resources, two different processes, but yet the same patch.

                                      Dave Gottshall

                                      ----------
                                      Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone

                                      ------Original Message------
                                      From: techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                      To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2:10 PM +0000
                                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

                                      I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.

                                      I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.

                                      Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.

                                      I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".

                                      Climbing off the soap-box now...

                                      C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                      Big Pines District Training Chair
                                      Crater Lake Council
                                      Medford, Oregon

                                      I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                      I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                      I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057

                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.
                                      >
                                    • Michael Crothers
                                      one of the concerns is that as mandatory training nears all of us, will the temptation to credit training to an individual become so great that the training
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        one of the concerns is that as mandatory training nears all of us, will the temptation to credit training to an individual become so great that the training attendance record will be turned in for training not taken.

                                        Also the quality of training, as to accuracy of information being put out. There is a bit of an experience level needed when training.
                                          

                                        Yours In Scouting





                                        Mike Crothers





                                        I used to be a good old Bob White NE-CS-11

                                        and a good old staffer too NE-CS-13

                                        and I used to be a good old Fox WE4-57-06

                                        --- On Wed, 6/30/10, techrescuemedic <tazmed@...> wrote:

                                        From: techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge
                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 7:10 AM







                                         









                                        I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.



                                        I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.



                                        Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.



                                        I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".



                                        Climbing off the soap-box now...



                                        C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)

                                        Big Pines District Training Chair

                                        Crater Lake Council

                                        Medford, Oregon



                                        I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878

                                        I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985

                                        I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057



                                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:

                                        >

                                        > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.

                                        >

























                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • DG Adams
                                        This is my 1st post here.... When I wore the PT hat in my pack (as a newly volunteered Adult), I made an effort to take every training opportunity available
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          This is my 1st post here....

                                          When I wore the PT hat in my pack (as a newly volunteered Adult), I made an effort to take every training opportunity available (not only my position in the pack), not only to be fully trained, but to be able to let the pack leaders know what to expect... From that I grew into being part of the district and council training staff.

                                          As a UC now, it's one of the things I think is important to pass along to new leaders .. the training is out there.

                                          DG Adams




                                          ________________________________
                                          From: "gottshalld@..." <gottshalld@...>
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                          Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:59:58 AM
                                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge


                                          C.J. your experience may not be typical. Of the very few pack trainers that I have come across, they fall into two categories:
                                          - district or council training staff that are associated with a pack; and
                                          - a pack adult that got volunteered into the job.

                                          In many cases, member of the first group do exactly what you described.

                                          In many cases, members of the second group do exactly what Gerry describes or may be even less.

                                          and there lies the problem ...

                                          For units with PTs in the second group, much of the actual training rests somewhere else, that being at the district or council level.

                                          For units with PTs in the first group, they have the resources and skills to make "things happen" internally.

                                          Two groups, two different sets of resources, two different processes, but yet the same patch.

                                          Dave Gottshall

                                          ----------
                                          Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone

                                          ------Original Message------
                                          From: techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                          To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2:10 PM +0000
                                          Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

                                          I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.

                                          I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.

                                          Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.

                                          I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".

                                          Climbing off the soap-box now...

                                          C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                          Big Pines District Training Chair
                                          Crater Lake Council
                                          Medford, Oregon

                                          I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                          I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                          I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057

                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.
                                          >







                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • tttrack@aol.com
                                          My fear is of folks who are appointed/volunteer for the position of Pack Trainer, take only Position Specific (or not) and feel fully qualified to put on all
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            My fear is of folks who are appointed/volunteer for the position of Pack
                                            Trainer, take only Position Specific (or not) and feel fully qualified to put
                                            on all training, including Position Specific.

                                            I would love to see it as a breeding ground for trainers, as it was for
                                            you, but I have qualms about others who do not take your approach.

                                            YIS

                                            Tom Travis


                                            In a message dated 6/30/2010 2:41:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                            dg98adams@... writes:




                                            This is my 1st post here....

                                            When I wore the PT hat in my pack (as a newly volunteered Adult), I made
                                            an effort to take every training opportunity available (not only my position
                                            in the pack), not only to be fully trained, but to be able to let the pack
                                            leaders know what to expect... From that I grew into being part of the
                                            district and council training staff.

                                            As a UC now, it's one of the things I think is important to pass along to
                                            new leaders .. the training is out there.

                                            DG Adams

                                            ________________________________
                                            From: "_gottshalld@..._ (mailto:gottshalld@...) "
                                            <_gottshalld@..._ (mailto:gottshalld@...) >
                                            To: _scouter_t@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com) ;
                                            techrescuemedic <_tazmed@..._ (mailto:tazmed@...) >
                                            Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:59:58 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The
                                            Trainer's Edge

                                            C.J. your experience may not be typical. Of the very few pack trainers
                                            that I have come across, they fall into two categories:
                                            - district or council training staff that are associated with a pack; and
                                            - a pack adult that got volunteered into the job.

                                            In many cases, member of the first group do exactly what you described.

                                            In many cases, members of the second group do exactly what Gerry describes
                                            or may be even less.

                                            and there lies the problem ...

                                            For units with PTs in the second group, much of the actual training rests
                                            somewhere else, that being at the district or council level.

                                            For units with PTs in the first group, they have the resources and skills
                                            to make "things happen" internally.

                                            Two groups, two different sets of resources, two different processes, but
                                            yet the same patch.

                                            Dave Gottshall

                                            ----------
                                            Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone

                                            ------Original Message------
                                            From: techrescuemedic <_tazmed@..._ (mailto:tazmed@...) >
                                            To: <_scouter_t@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com) >
                                            Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2:10 PM +0000
                                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The
                                            Trainer's Edge

                                            I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes
                                            the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be
                                            replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I
                                            don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included
                                            shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are
                                            doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that
                                            reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to
                                            overcome. I hope I'm wrong.

                                            I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a
                                            huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's
                                            were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having
                                            been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples
                                            of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the
                                            position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader
                                            Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff,
                                            Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can
                                            add District Training Chair to the list.

                                            Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but
                                            we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts
                                            of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else
                                            could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack
                                            Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the
                                            pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses
                                            the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.

                                            I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me.
                                            Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a
                                            problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy
                                            to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated
                                            across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors
                                            for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training
                                            as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units
                                            should have just to "Check the box".

                                            Climbing off the soap-box now...

                                            C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                            Big Pines District Training Chair
                                            Crater Lake Council
                                            Medford, Oregon

                                            I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                            I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                            I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057

                                            --- In _scouter_t@yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com) ,
                                            "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most
                                            everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is
                                            outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what
                                            the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info
                                            available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the
                                            classes.
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Alan Smason
                                            Welcome to the forum, DG. Frankly, I had this discussion with my District Training Chair just last night. When Pack Trainer was first introduced several years
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Welcome to the forum, DG.
                                              Frankly, I had this discussion with my District Training Chair just last night. When Pack Trainer was first introduced several years ago, the suggestion was that the person should have two years or more of experience before taking on the role. Based on the new emphasis on training and the critical role Pack Trainers will play with it, it is my feeling that we have an opportunity here, especially with new recruits.
                                              If a new recruit expresses a reluctance to take on the responsiblity of direct contact with youth (e.g., "I'd like to help you, but I don't want to be a Den Leader or the Cubmaster."), then offer them the Pack Trainer position. Don't wait till they accrue two or more years of experience. They may not be there at that time. Encourage them to go to the next Trainer's EDGE and become certified as a Pack Trainer.
                                              As you have attested, most Pack Trainers will familiarize themselves with all facets of Cub Scout training in order to better know the training. By doing so, they become a vital part of their unit's training plan as well as to enhance the district and council training numbers in the process. If they become District Training Chairs or Unit Commissioner at a later date, so much the better.

                                              With you in Scouter training,

                                              Alan Smason
                                              New Orleans, LA
                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of DG Adams
                                              Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:16 AM
                                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge



                                              This is my 1st post here....

                                              When I wore the PT hat in my pack (as a newly volunteered Adult), I made an effort to take every training opportunity available (not only my position in the pack), not only to be fully trained, but to be able to let the pack leaders know what to expect... From that I grew into being part of the district and council training staff.

                                              As a UC now, it's one of the things I think is important to pass along to new leaders .. the training is out there.

                                              DG Adams

                                              ________________________________
                                              From: "gottshalld@..." <gottshalld@...>
                                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com; techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                              Sent: Wed, June 30, 2010 11:59:58 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

                                              C.J. your experience may not be typical. Of the very few pack trainers that I have come across, they fall into two categories:
                                              - district or council training staff that are associated with a pack; and
                                              - a pack adult that got volunteered into the job.

                                              In many cases, member of the first group do exactly what you described.

                                              In many cases, members of the second group do exactly what Gerry describes or may be even less.

                                              and there lies the problem ...

                                              For units with PTs in the second group, much of the actual training rests somewhere else, that being at the district or council level.

                                              For units with PTs in the first group, they have the resources and skills to make "things happen" internally.

                                              Two groups, two different sets of resources, two different processes, but yet the same patch.

                                              Dave Gottshall

                                              ----------
                                              Sent from my Verizon Wireless mobile phone

                                              ------Original Message------
                                              From: techrescuemedic <tazmed@...>
                                              To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Date: Wed, Jun 30, 2:10 PM +0000
                                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The Trainer's Edge

                                              I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.

                                              I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.

                                              Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.

                                              I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".

                                              Climbing off the soap-box now...

                                              C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                              Big Pines District Training Chair
                                              Crater Lake Council
                                              Medford, Oregon

                                              I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                              I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                              I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057

                                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.
                                              >

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Jason Ball
                                              I hear what you re saying, Alan, about offering the role of Pack Trainer to someone who doesn t want a role with the kids, but roll that around your mouth a
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                                I hear what you're saying, Alan, about offering the role of Pack Trainer to someone who doesn't want a role with the kids, but roll that around your mouth a few times. "The Pack Trainer has never worked as a direct contact leader". Most of the valuable training I have received has been from people who have been doing the job for a while and can offer personal insight and experiences to put the pre-packaged materials from the BSA into context. Personally, I would seriously question the value of training from someone who hasn't done the job before or who hasn't been around the program for several years.

                                                Jason
                                                Illinois
                                                On Jun 30, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Alan Smason wrote:

                                                > Welcome to the forum, DG.
                                                > Frankly, I had this discussion with my District Training Chair just last night. When Pack Trainer was first introduced several years ago, the suggestion was that the person should have two years or more of experience before taking on the role. Based on the new emphasis on training and the critical role Pack Trainers will play with it, it is my feeling that we have an opportunity here, especially with new recruits.
                                                > If a new recruit expresses a reluctance to take on the responsiblity of direct contact with youth (e.g., "I'd like to help you, but I don't want to be a Den Leader or the Cubmaster."), then offer them the Pack Trainer position. Don't wait till they accrue two or more years of experience. They may not be there at that time. Encourage them to go to the next Trainer's EDGE and become certified as a Pack Trainer.
                                                > As you have attested, most Pack Trainers will familiarize themselves with all facets of Cub Scout training in order to better know the training. By doing so, they become a vital part of their unit's training plan as well as to enhance the district and council training numbers in the process. If they become District Training Chairs or Unit Commissioner at a later date, so much the better.
                                                >
                                                > With you in Scouter training,
                                                >
                                                > Alan Smason
                                                > New Orleans, LA
                                              • Alan Smason
                                                Remember what I said: this is an opportunity. It may not be a good fit for everyone. If a new recruit goes to Trainer s EDGE, he will be given the very best
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                                  Remember what I said: this is an opportunity. It may not be a good fit for
                                                  everyone. If a new recruit goes to Trainer's EDGE, he will be given the very
                                                  best training by the best trainers in the council, at least in theory. We
                                                  therefore raise the bar for that new recruit, not merely put him or her into
                                                  a two or three hour training session and announce he or she is now trained.
                                                  I would like to think that Pack Trainers will consider their assignments
                                                  seriously and, like DG, immerse themselves in all aspects of training,
                                                  making them viable candidates for more responsible positions later on. But
                                                  let's leave that aside for the moment. The new training emphasis on direct
                                                  contact leaders will require more Pack Trainers. It is my belief that we
                                                  need to get as many warm bodies to Trainer's EDGE and shore up that vital
                                                  link. We cannot go back to the past where we had the luxury of waiting for
                                                  leaders to become experienced enough to become Pack Trainers. You and I both
                                                  know that no one formula covers everyone. I am certain there will be several
                                                  Pack Trainers who come out of Trainer's EDGE with few skills needed to
                                                  adequately deliver the job. However, there will also be a number who will
                                                  take to the method we use for training like ducks to water. I'm hoping for a
                                                  lot more ducks out there.

                                                  All my best,

                                                  Alan Smason
                                                  Louisiana
                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]On
                                                  Behalf Of Jason Ball
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 2:20 PM
                                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Trainer's Developement Conference and The
                                                  Trainer's Edge



                                                  I hear what you're saying, Alan, about offering the role of Pack Trainer
                                                  to someone who doesn't want a role with the kids, but roll that around your
                                                  mouth a few times. "The Pack Trainer has never worked as a direct contact
                                                  leader". Most of the valuable training I have received has been from people
                                                  who have been doing the job for a while and can offer personal insight and
                                                  experiences to put the pre-packaged materials from the BSA into context.
                                                  Personally, I would seriously question the value of training from someone
                                                  who hasn't done the job before or who hasn't been around the program for
                                                  several years.

                                                  Jason
                                                  Illinois
                                                  On Jun 30, 2010, at 2:04 PM, Alan Smason wrote:

                                                  > Welcome to the forum, DG.
                                                  > Frankly, I had this discussion with my District Training Chair just last
                                                  night. When Pack Trainer was first introduced several years ago, the
                                                  suggestion was that the person should have two years or more of experience
                                                  before taking on the role. Based on the new emphasis on training and the
                                                  critical role Pack Trainers will play with it, it is my feeling that we have
                                                  an opportunity here, especially with new recruits.
                                                  > If a new recruit expresses a reluctance to take on the responsiblity of
                                                  direct contact with youth (e.g., "I'd like to help you, but I don't want to
                                                  be a Den Leader or the Cubmaster."), then offer them the Pack Trainer
                                                  position. Don't wait till they accrue two or more years of experience. They
                                                  may not be there at that time. Encourage them to go to the next Trainer's
                                                  EDGE and become certified as a Pack Trainer.
                                                  > As you have attested, most Pack Trainers will familiarize themselves
                                                  with all facets of Cub Scout training in order to better know the training.
                                                  By doing so, they become a vital part of their unit's training plan as well
                                                  as to enhance the district and council training numbers in the process. If
                                                  they become District Training Chairs or Unit Commissioner at a later date,
                                                  so much the better.
                                                  >
                                                  > With you in Scouter training,
                                                  >
                                                  > Alan Smason
                                                  > New Orleans, LA





                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • gottshalld@aol.com
                                                  Alan and Jason make some excellent points. There are a couple of things that work against retention of Cub Scouters that have have experience in the Cub
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                                    Alan and Jason make some excellent points.

                                                    There are a couple of things that work against retention of Cub Scouters that have have experience in the Cub program.

                                                    The first is Boy Scouts. Many involved adults follow their sons when they graduate. This is a normal progression which is encouraged by National.

                                                    The second is very high positional turn over or musical chairs between positions. Autonomy of den program leads to compartmentalization of program and a sense that "pack-level leadership" is very different than den leadership. To this you add the fact that the top priority for adult recruiting is normally den leadership and position such as ACM and PT are more positions of convenience than necessity.

                                                    Regarding TE and TDC. I have staffed TDC and co-directed TE. I found TDC to be much better in providing information "in the whole." What I mean by this that it exposes the participant to vast quantities of information that more trainers-in-training do not have. Effect use of color combinations, mixture of sensory inputs, effective oration. The thing that is missing is the personal application of these skills.

                                                    TE, on the other hand, requires you to prepare a presentation before the actual training and present it at the event. I find this to be a little backwards in development.

                                                    I found that sequential participation (TDC then TE) in both is better than either one separately. TE is better for an experienced trainer as it provides a practical with feedback. TDC is better for a new trainer as it provides critical background that most newbie would not know or even think about.

                                                    Just my two cents ...

                                                    Dave Gottshall







                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Gerry
                                                    Perhaps I oversimplified, CJ. I didn t mean to lessen the importance of the position - I treasured my time as one and took it seriously. The point in the job
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jun 30, 2010
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                                                      Perhaps I oversimplified, CJ. I didn't mean to lessen the importance of the position - I treasured my time as one and took it seriously. The point in the job description that reads "Encouraging pack leaders to attend Cub Scout Leader Basic Training, which includes New Leader Essentials (which we know no longer exists)and Cub Scout Leader Specific Training" was simplified in my comment to "shepherd them to the classes". My comment also extends to "Encouraging pack leaders to attend ongoing training such as Youth Protection training, roundtable, pow wow, BALOO, Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders, and Wood Badge".

                                                      I believe that where we have different perspectives is in "Conducting other training as designated by the district and/or council". Our experiences differ here. One thing is certain, and that is that one's perspective will always induce another to offer a rebuttal.

                                                      FEEDBACK IS A GIFT. Thanks!



                                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "techrescuemedic" <tazmed@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > I'm sorry, but I have to take exception with this. Your description makes the Pack Trainer sound like a nanny (nothing against nannies) who could be replaced by a newsletter or even an email. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think I've ever seen a "Job Description" for PT that included shepherding. By making the statement "they exist to know about what the trainers are doing" really gives me the impression that you have a training cadre that reminds me of the Wood Badge staff "clique" syndrome that we struggled to overcome. I hope I'm wrong.
                                                      >
                                                      > I've worked with quite a few PT's, and I was one for two years; we did a huge chunk of the cub leader training around the council and the other PT's were some of the most dedicated instructors I've ever worked with. Having been a professional educator, I've worked with a bunch. Just a few examples of what the PT's were doing include coordinating and teaching all of the position specific courses, program director for University of Scout Leader Training, Pow Wow Director, BALOO and OLSWL Director/Instructor, TDC staff, Trainer's EDGE staff, Wood Badge staff...the list goes on. Oh yeah, you can add District Training Chair to the list.
                                                      >
                                                      > Maybe I was just part of a "Super Council" and we were the exception, but we really advocated having Pack Trainers and we utilized them for all sorts of training, not just telling people what was going on so someone else could teach them. In my opinion (and I know all about opinions) the Pack Trainer should be your "Subject Matter Expert" and a resource for all of the pack leadership and parents. In addition to presenting the different courses the Pack Trainer should be mentoring the new leaders.
                                                      >
                                                      > I appologize for the rant, but this just kind of struck a nerve with me. Pack Trainers are probably under-utilized in most places and I see that as a problem. "Every boy deserves a trained leader" isn't just something catchy to say in classes, it's actually a true statement. I recently relocated across the country and I'm in the process of building a cadre of instructors for my new council...you can be sure that I'll be recruiting and training as many Pack Trainers as I can find. The position isn't something that units should have just to "Check the box".
                                                      >
                                                      > Climbing off the soap-box now...
                                                      >
                                                      > C. J. Johnson, BHS, NREMT-P (Ret.)
                                                      > Big Pines District Training Chair
                                                      > Crater Lake Council
                                                      > Medford, Oregon
                                                      >
                                                      > I used to be an Owl!!! SR-878
                                                      > I used to be a Troop Guide SR-985
                                                      > I used to be a Quartermaster SR-1057
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Gerry" <gerrymoon32817@> wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Pack Trainers don't do much training in the purest sense - most everything beyond presenting Fast Start and conducting new parent orientation is outside the scope of a Pack Trainer's role - they exist to know about what the trainers are doing and what's being presented when, then make that info available to the leaders and parents in the unit and shepherd them to the classes.
                                                      > >
                                                      >
                                                    • Dawn Gent
                                                      I believe there have been many good points written about the subject of the Pack Trainer in this discussion. A point not mentioned, so far, relates to
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jul 1, 2010
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                                                        I believe there have been many good points written about the subject of the Pack Trainer in this discussion.

                                                        A point not mentioned, so far, relates to experience, "connectedness" of the trainer, and what is going on with training materials development and its continuity.

                                                        Many of us have observed that due to the plethora of training materials for all programs, it is next to impossible to release new material without "dating" another piece of material. The consequence is that it really is not possible to pull a syllabus off the shelf, hand it to a trainer, and expect that they will know all of the current changes in order to deliver the most current material. (A classic example is the current Wood Badge 2010 material which has a the example of using planning a New Leader Essentials class in the planning section - most of us know that New Leader Essentials was replaced in spring 2009). I understand WHY this happens, but it takes diligent effort on the part of the training team to make sure that everyone is up to date.

                                                        Which brings me to the point that while the concept of Pack Trainer is a good one, district training teams (and UCs) will have to work hard to keep them connected and CURRENT to prevent mis-information since human nature may lead the unit into a belief that they no longer need the assistance from the district. I have witnessed this effect on a few occasions, and not just in training.

                                                        YIS,
                                                        Dawn Gent
                                                        Wilmington, DE

                                                        Used to be an Eagle NE-211
                                                        Used to be a Staffer NE-69


                                                        "Rest is not idleness, and to lie sometimes on the grass on a summer day listening to the murmur of water, or watching the clouds float across the sky, is hardly a waste of time."
                                                        - John Lubbock


                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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